omega0684
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| posted on 23/3/11 at 10:05 PM |
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OMEX starting problems
Evening all,
right i have being trying to start my car for 2 days now & im not having much luck, first i had the starter not turning the flywheel, thats now
sorted but now the injectors won't fire.
my dad and i went over all the wiring tonight and we are 100% sure its all correct, there is 12v on all 4 injectors during cranking and i have sparks
on all 4 cylinders. both fuel pumps are working fine, the HP pump primes as it should, for 2 seconds. when cranking the fuel pump comes on so i know
the crank signal is getting back to the ECU.
the only thing i can think of is that the ecu is not signalling the injectors to open so the fuel can be injected? any ideas? i have pressurised the
rail and then put 12v on the injector from a separate battery and i can pysically see the fuel being squirted in so i know the injectors are ok.
And other ideas?
i have been through both the OMEX hardware and software manual and can't see anything obvious that i could have missed, i rang OMEX today and
they gave me a few pointers but none of them have worked. i will ring them back in the morning but wanted to see if there were any solutions that
people might think of on here as well
Thanks again
Alex
I love Pinto's, even if i did get mine from P&O!
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mark chandler
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| posted on 23/3/11 at 10:17 PM |
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On my cars the ECU has switched an earth to trigger the injectors as they are always live, when cranking you should see switched earth maybe?
So facing the ECU use an old school multimeter, one with a face and watch the needle wagging.
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mark chandler
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| posted on 23/3/11 at 10:23 PM |
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Just had a google, ECU triggers an earth to fire so the injectors should always be live when you switch on.
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omega0684
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| posted on 23/3/11 at 10:24 PM |
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we think that the ecu is not grounding the injectors and hence why they're not firing. i have checked the earths from the plug to the chassis
and they are both sound.
I love Pinto's, even if i did get mine from P&O!
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 23/3/11 at 10:34 PM |
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Has this ever run?
If not then is the ignition switch wired correctly? I had mine set up so that when cranking there was no power to the ECU.
Schoolboy error.
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omega0684
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| posted on 23/3/11 at 10:41 PM |
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yes the engine has been run,
to reiterate, there is 12v to the injectors during cranking, which is also wired into the ecu
I love Pinto's, even if i did get mine from P&O!
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garyo
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| posted on 23/3/11 at 10:41 PM |
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I had a similar problem on an old Westfield. It turned out that the battery was a bit weak and when cranking the fuel pump would slow down and
therefore there wasn't enough fuel pressure. Exacerbated by lack of a non return valve in the fuel line.
Does your exhaust smell of unburned fuel?
If you short the injectors to ground to force them to inject fuel while cranking does it splutter to life then die?
Gary
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britishtrident
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| posted on 23/3/11 at 10:42 PM |
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The simplest test for injector signals is a "Noid Light" just a LED fitted with an injector plug, you can buy a proper set
that covers all the different types of injector plug very cheaply but usually all you need is the Bosch type which you can buy on its own ----
see Ebay Item number: 230595053250 ---- single Bosch
or ebat Item number: 180380143817 ---- Draper set of 6 different tyoes.
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omega0684
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| posted on 23/3/11 at 10:54 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by garyo
Does your exhaust smell of unburned fuel?
If you short the injectors to ground to force them to inject fuel while cranking does it splutter to life then die?
Gary
no smell of unburnt fuel as there is no fuel being injected in the first place!
I love Pinto's, even if i did get mine from P&O!
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PeteS2k
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| posted on 23/3/11 at 10:58 PM |
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Different ECU (DTA) and engine (Honda S2000), but when I had a similar problem with a starting problem with mine, it turned out to be duff wiring on
the cam sensor. I'd been scratching my head, thinking it was injectors or ignition, but they worked ine on diagnostics, like yours. The DTA
software provides a diagnostic engine 'oscilloscope' to check crank and cam signal pulses. I don't pretend to understand the detail
of how it uses the cam signal, but I spotted a duff (non-existent) cam signal, re-wired it, and everything worked again. 
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omega0684
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| posted on 23/3/11 at 11:06 PM |
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does the omex 600 have a similar "oscilloscope type" recognition system to monitor crank signal?
I love Pinto's, even if i did get mine from P&O!
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ashg
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| posted on 24/3/11 at 12:06 AM |
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it should do. I know where it is on ms but have never used the omex software. its usually under the logging section on most ecu's . are you
using the omex for spark? if you are are you getting spark? if your getting spark you should have a signal from the crank.
Anything With Tits or Wheels Will cost you MONEY!!
Haynes Roadster (Finished)
Exocet (Finished & Sold)
New Project (Started)
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omega0684
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| posted on 24/3/11 at 07:50 AM |
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right guys i've had a crack again this morning and i seem to be getting a voltage drop on the ignition relay during cranking?
could this be a contributing factor?
I love Pinto's, even if i did get mine from P&O!
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flak monkey
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| posted on 24/3/11 at 07:57 AM |
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As long as it doesnt drop below 10v it will be fine.
My guess would be no crank trigger. Are you sure your crank sensor is wired up and set up correctly along with the tooth pattern table in the ECU?
This side of it is more complicated than MS.
What map are you using? You can't create one yourself for an omex as they have a lot of background settings you cant access.
Did you buy the ECU new? If so just give Andrew Cornock at Omex a bell and he will sort you out over the phone.
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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scudderfish
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| posted on 24/3/11 at 08:11 AM |
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Just read your first post again and realised that what I posted was already answered
[Edited on 24/3/11 by scudderfish]
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omega0684
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| posted on 24/3/11 at 08:57 AM |
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DAVE: The ECU is reading a a cranking speed of 150 rpm (ish) during cranking. Im using a base map that Andy gave me after my speaking to him a few
weeks ago. I have been through the Hardware manual (as instructed by Andy) and calibrated the TPS and water temp sensor/air temp sensor etc
i have just tested that the ignition relay grounds the circuit during cranking and it does. the ignition relay is wired in parallel to the HPFP relay,
(THE HPFP WORKS DURING CRANKING - hence why i think the crank signal is sound) this is leading me to believe that there is something amiss in the ECU
itsself. its as if the ECU is not telling the injectors to fire?
I'll give Andy another call this morning to see what he says, keep the advice coming though.
Alex
I love Pinto's, even if i did get mine from P&O!
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omega0684
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| posted on 24/3/11 at 11:16 AM |
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well, phone omex at 9am this morning, left message for Andy to call me back, Now 11:10am and i still haven't had a phone call, not impressed!
i have been over all the woring again, definately getting 12v supply to the injectors and coil pack and a small voltage drop during cranking on the
ignition relay but nothin substantial. definately getting a crank signal as dial on the laptop is reading cranking rpm of 150
the only thing i can now think of is that there is something not right in the software in the ECU? the ECU isn't grounding the injector circuit
enabling them to open. i have checked that the trigger wheel settings are correct and it is (36-1).
i really am at a dead end now, don't know what to do apart from wait for a call from Andy, if he doesn't call me by 1pm, i'll ring
them again.
I love Pinto's, even if i did get mine from P&O!
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g60_edge
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| posted on 24/3/11 at 11:32 AM |
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Have you tried just increasing the simple fuel scaling value (in start up screen) to try and get more fuel in. Mine woudln't start on
it's standard setting, so doubled it (88) and it started. I was able to reduce this to around 60 odd I think in the end.
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omega0684
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| posted on 24/3/11 at 01:33 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by g60_edge
Have you tried just increasing the simple fuel scaling value (in start up screen) to try and get more fuel in. Mine woudln't start on
it's standard setting, so doubled it (88) and it started. I was able to reduce this to around 60 odd I think in the end.
i dont see how this could solve the problem i have? if the injectors arn't opening then it doesn't matter what figure i put the fuel at
its still not going to be injected into the cylinders
I love Pinto's, even if i did get mine from P&O!
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flak monkey
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| posted on 24/3/11 at 02:10 PM |
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Have some patience! Andy is busy enough! He'll get back to you within a day normally.
Are you absolutely certain your injectors arent firing? You can hear them click if they are. What impedance injectors are you using (high or low)?
Are you getting a priming pulse? You should be able to see the injectors spray if you open the butterflies, or be able to smell petrol.
If you are getting a cranking signal then thats a start
The ECU basically just switches each injector to ground every time they fire, exactly the same as MS.
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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omega0684
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| posted on 24/3/11 at 02:47 PM |
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Just had a chat with Andy at omex, i sent him my editted base map and he said that looked fine, he has asked me to increase the injector pulse width
to see if we can get the plugs wet. so i'll have a go, other than that he said i would have to send the unit back to him 
I love Pinto's, even if i did get mine from P&O!
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g60_edge
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| posted on 24/3/11 at 03:14 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by omega0684
quote:
Originally posted by g60_edge
Have you tried just increasing the simple fuel scaling value (in start up screen) to try and get more fuel in. Mine woudln't start on
it's standard setting, so doubled it (88) and it started. I was able to reduce this to around 60 odd I think in the end.
i dont see how this could solve the problem i have? if the injectors arn't opening then it doesn't matter what figure i put the fuel at
its still not going to be injected into the cylinders
Beacuse it is such a quick and simple thing to try. It will help to prove whether the injectors are really working or not.
Sounds like you are making progress with omex now, it will be running soon!
[Edited on 24/3/11 by g60_edge]
[Edited on 24/3/11 by g60_edge]
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omega0684
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| posted on 28/3/11 at 03:32 PM |
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well i've just had a phone call from Andy @ OMEX, he says he has tested all the ecu and the wiring and is certain its all working, he thinks
that potentially the signal coming from teh crank sensor is too weak to fire the injectors and so possible need to move the CPS closer to the toothed
wheel, the also thinks that it might not be sparking under compression!
I'll put all the loom back together and try his recommendations when i get all my stuff back and let you know how i get on
I love Pinto's, even if i did get mine from P&O!
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flak monkey
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| posted on 28/3/11 at 05:38 PM |
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If its not sparking under compression then the coil is fubar, or the plugs or leads. I always run NGK plugs as champions are hit and miss. And decent
HT leads are a must, knowing you you have probably got magnecors anyway though.
I was also going to say have you got the coil connected up right, i.e the right HT to the right cylinder and the trigger leads from the ECU the right
way around. Shouldnt matter if you are running wasted spark, but its worth checking.
Gap to the crank sensor should be 0.5mm
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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scudderfish
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| posted on 29/3/11 at 07:59 AM |
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Thought I'd get back on this thread rather than doing this over facebook
If you briefly manually earth an injector, does it squirt fuel? Even with the fuel pumps not running, there should be pressure in the line to do
this.
Regards,
Dave
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