Stevie_P
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| posted on 30/11/15 at 03:50 PM |
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All round braided brake pipes
Toying with the idea of using braided brake pipes throughout.
Anyone done this?
Is this OK for IVA?
I suppose they may produce a slightly more spongy pedal as I assume they'll have more give than copper pipework.
Always happy for comments good or bad.
Cheers
Steve
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russbost
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| posted on 30/11/15 at 04:18 PM |
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Been done 1000's of times, no problem for IVA provided clipped up every 30cm as usual. There will be no difference in the pedal there is no
"give" in a braided hose anymore than in a copper pipe.
Advantages ease of use/fitting & appearance, only downsides are cost & a fractional weight penalty
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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loggyboy
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| posted on 30/11/15 at 04:23 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by russbost
Been done 1000's of times, no problem for IVA provided clipped up every 30cm as usual. There will be no difference in the pedal there is no
"give" in a braided hose anymore than in a copper pipe.
Advantages ease of use/fitting & appearance, only downsides are cost & a fractional weight penalty
Theyre not only downsides the biggest and most important is that when they inevitably start to degrade you cant tell where the problem is or get an
idea there is a problem till its too late.
Stick to solid pipe for as much of it as you can!
Mistral Motorsport
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russbost
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| posted on 30/11/15 at 04:29 PM |
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"Inevitably degrade"???? All our lines are from HEL, top quality stainless steel & guaranteed for the life of the vehicle - the only
degradation might be some very low grade deterioration of the PVC cover due to UV - the integrity of the lines will not breakdown in the life of any
normal vehicle.
I doubt you'll find any copper lines with that guarantee! 
Edited to say another advantage is less junctions of pipe to hose, which are always a potential failure/leakage point.
[Edited on 30/11/15 by russbost]
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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Doctor Derek Doctors
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| posted on 30/11/15 at 04:37 PM |
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I used flexi-pipe throughout on my race car, was much simpler to make and route, less potential leak paths and I could remove the brake lines to do
chassis work without having to split the system down.
The 'spongy' feel myth is just that, a complete myth.
Its the way I'll be going on future builds.
Designer and Supplier of the T89 Designs - Single Seater Locost. Build you own Single Seater Racecar for ~£5k.
Plans and Drawings available, U2U or e-mail for details.
Available Now: The Sports Racer Add-On pack, Build a full bodied Sports Racer for Trackdays, Sprints and Racing.
www.t89.co.uk
www.racecarwings.co.uk
callan@t89.co.uk
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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dinosaurjuice
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| posted on 30/11/15 at 04:58 PM |
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I run braided lines on the rocket, I even went to the extreme of each wheel has its own line from the master cylinder to caliper, no tee's or
bulkheads etc. It actually worked out cheaper as the extra meters of hose was less than using copper and more fittings/tees. Thoroughly recommended by
me 
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Stevie_P
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| posted on 30/11/15 at 05:20 PM |
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I think that's a winner then
Russ, I assume you can supply a 'kit' for use on an MK Indy R?
U2U me a price if you can?
Cheers
Steve
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russbost
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| posted on 30/11/15 at 05:32 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Stevie_P
I think that's a winner then
Russ, I assume you can supply a 'kit' for use on an MK Indy R?
U2U me a price if you can?
Cheers
Steve
I wish it were that simple, unfortunately as people use different master cylinder setups, different calipers etc & each "7" is
different, however, assuming you are using even vaguely modern calipers all threads will be m10 x 1.0, (providing they aren't Wilwoods which use
27 x 1/8 NPT!), same for the master cylinders unless you have a dual m/cyl Girling setup which uses imperial threads, most people go for straight
swivel males on the caliper end as makes them easier to fit, but obviously you have the option to go for banjo ends if that suits pipe routing
better.
Assuming you are going to uses T's use m10 x 1.0 there as well, again straight male swivels unless there is a specific requirement for anything
else.
I just need lengths & what ends for each of the pipe runs & whether you want us to supply the T's or you have your own (if your own need
to confirm thread) & what colour you want on the hose (no extra charge for any available colour). We always suggest following the line of the hose
runs with washer tubing, electrical cable or similar, anything which will realistically follow a similar path.
Just drop me a u2u or email russbost followed by the @googlemail.com when you have lengths etc.
Cheers Russ
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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Stevie_P
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| posted on 30/11/15 at 05:38 PM |
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Of course Russ. Totally forgot that everyone is using different stuff.
I am using Wilwood calipers up front.
Will email you what I've got / want and take it from there.
Cheers
Steve
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hizzi
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| posted on 30/11/15 at 06:39 PM |
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only thing to beware of with braided lines fuel or brakes is during the build of your car beware if you weld anything that the earth clamp is on the
part being welded otherwise the braided hose with become the earth path and melt internally.
wrote off a car a few years ago due to this
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 30/11/15 at 07:00 PM |
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quote:
"Inevitably degrade"???? All our lines are from HEL, top quality stainless steel & guaranteed for the life of the vehicle - the only
degradation might be some very low grade deterioration of the PVC cover due to UV - the integrity of the lines will not breakdown in the life of any
normal vehicle.
What's the internal tube made of? Braided isn't as rigid as solid pipe, but you won't notice it in any normal vehicle. I'd be
happy using braided throughout except I think I like the neater look of rigid, plus rigid will be lighter.
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britishtrident
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| posted on 30/11/15 at 07:26 PM |
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A few points.
1)Is braided hose fit for purpose ? Yes.
2) Would it be choice for a road car ? No
3) Would it be the choice for a single seater? Yes
4)Will it have more elastic deformation under pressure than solid pipe ? Yes but it will have only a miniscule effect on pedal travel.
5) What is the best material for road car brake lines? Genuine Kunnifer, nb. Never copper!
I have bad experience with braided brake and fuel hoses.The reasons I try to avoid them (1)The only new flex brake hoses I have ever encountered
with manufacturing faults were the braided type. (2) I encountred more than a few fuel hoses on old military vehicles and BMC cars where the metal
braiding had caused pin hole punctures in the hose.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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russbost
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| posted on 1/12/15 at 08:14 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
quote:
"Inevitably degrade"???? All our lines are from HEL, top quality stainless steel & guaranteed for the life of the vehicle - the only
degradation might be some very low grade deterioration of the PVC cover due to UV - the integrity of the lines will not breakdown in the life of any
normal vehicle.
What's the internal tube made of? Braided isn't as rigid as solid pipe, but you won't notice it in any normal vehicle. I'd be
happy using braided throughout except I think I like the neater look of rigid, plus rigid will be lighter.
The internal pipe is rigid teflon lined PTFE, the hoses have been tested to 18,000psi in 24hr "whip tests" where the end of the hose is
left unattached & allowed to whip around as fluid is forced thro' at 18,000psi (that's something like 20 times+ the highest pressure
you're likely to achieve in any normal braking sytem), they have to survive this test to be certified - before anyone says anything daft - this
is a one off test that hoses of the same type are subject to, not a test for each hose made! 
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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russbost
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| posted on 1/12/15 at 08:22 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
A few points.
1)Is braided hose fit for purpose ? Yes.
2) Would it be choice for a road car ? No
3) Would it be the choice for a single seater? Yes
4)Will it have more elastic deformation under pressure than solid pipe ? Yes but it will have only a miniscule effect on pedal travel.
5) What is the best material for road car brake lines? Genuine Kunnifer, nb. Never copper!
I have bad experience with braided brake and fuel hoses.The reasons I try to avoid them (1)The only new flex brake hoses I have ever encountered
with manufacturing faults were the braided type. (2) I encountred more than a few fuel hoses on old military vehicles and BMC cars where the metal
braiding had caused pin hole punctures in the hose.
I'd beg to differ on point 2) choice for a road car - if, by "road car" you mean ordinary tin top, then no I wouldn't ever
bother doing the whole car in braided, but it is still a better, more attractive & more durable choice for each corner & sometimes can save
considerable time when replacing a metal pipe if the routing of that pipe involves removal of chassis parts as you can fit the braided hose where you
wouldn't necessarily fit copper/kunifer
Re 4) I'm not sure if you're right even under laboratory conditions as there is obviously some wall deformation under pressure of kunifer
& more so with copper, I've never actually seen a direct comparison, I DO know that when compared with rubber hoses you can actually feel
the difference, the braided hose giving a much firmer pedal
re 5) again depends on where the hose is & what it & the vehicle are going to be used for, argument for kunifer over copper it is harder,
stiffer & more durable, however copper is FAR easier to work with it is so soft & for any "normal" use if you're going to
use hard pipe I would usually use copper over kunifer (depending on exact application)
Horses for courses!
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
|
AdamR20
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| posted on 1/12/15 at 09:33 AM |
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My 2p... I have two identical cars (Mk1 MX-5s), both used exclusively on the track. The first has hard lines in the 'normal' locations
then stainless flexi hoses from the ends of those to the calipers, and the second car has braided stainless throughout. They both use the same
calipers, rotors, pads (brand and model), wheels, tyres and are the same weight and ride height to within a few kg / mm.
Brake feel on the second car is significantly worse than the first one, and the second car requires considerably more brake pressure to lock the
wheels. I'm at the point where I am considering 'going backwards' and fitting hard lines to the second car, even though the braided
hoses were pretty expensive and much easier to route.
[Edited on 1/12/15 by AdamR20]
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Doctor Derek Doctors
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| posted on 1/12/15 at 09:40 AM |
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Thats far more likely to be some air in the line or an M/C or Caliper fault. If it's significantly worse then there is something actually
wrong.
We used the same braided line to do the high pressure ultra high speed hydraulic controls on the Merc' F1 engines (throttle, wastegate and other
special bits), if there was even a tiny amount of 'spongyness' in those lines it would have caused a delay and wouldnt have been used.
Designer and Supplier of the T89 Designs - Single Seater Locost. Build you own Single Seater Racecar for ~£5k.
Plans and Drawings available, U2U or e-mail for details.
Available Now: The Sports Racer Add-On pack, Build a full bodied Sports Racer for Trackdays, Sprints and Racing.
www.t89.co.uk
www.racecarwings.co.uk
callan@t89.co.uk
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
|
AdamR20
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| posted on 1/12/15 at 09:48 AM |
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Interesting. I thought the same, so I have spent some time swapping M/Cs, re-bleeding etc. as I didn't believe the braided lines could be any
less stiff, but the only difference I can identity throughout the whole system is the hoses!
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Stevie_P
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| posted on 1/12/15 at 09:48 AM |
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Seems like I've sparked a bit of a debate here.
I think it's a case of pay your money and take your choice.
Cheers
Steve
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russbost
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| posted on 1/12/15 at 09:54 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by AdamR20
My 2p... I have two identical cars (Mk1 MX-5s), both used exclusively on the track. The first has hard lines in the 'normal' locations
then stainless flexi hoses from the ends of those to the calipers, and the second car has braided stainless throughout. They both use the same
calipers, rotors, pads (brand and model), wheels, tyres and are the same weight and ride height to within a few kg / mm.
Brake feel on the second car is significantly worse than the first one, and the second car requires considerably more brake pressure to lock the
wheels. I'm at the point where I am considering 'going backwards' and fitting hard lines to the second car, even though the braided
hoses were pretty expensive and much easier to route.
[Edited on 1/12/15 by AdamR20]
I am 100% sure that changing the lines isn't going to improve things unless you have a damaged line ie braid has been damaged allowing the inner
line to bulge, or some other issue within the system.
Is it possible that with the routing of the flexies you have introduced a loop or "uphill" section which is trapping air & hence
failing to bleed properly? You don't say whose lines you're using but I have never heard of any braided lines giving a softer pedal, there
has to be something else going on there.
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
|
AdamR20
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| posted on 1/12/15 at 10:08 AM |
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Thought about / investigated the above also... Can't think of anything else it could be. Theory dictates they should be the same but my own
findings have been different. I subscribe to both routes in everything I do on a car (theoretical and "actual" ), and usually find they
co-incide, which is why I'm confused here!
On a similar note, the brakes perform the same on both cars in terms of which wheel locks first and the overall front to rear bias, both with and
without a passenger, so I'm fairly sure there's no air in the system. There is an uphill route which crosses the engine bay to the NSF
wheel, but this is the same on the hard lines and is never a problem to bleed through.
The lines were from Rally Design, so hopefully not cheap rubbish.
If I do fond a definitive solution, I'll come back and post it!
[Edited on 1/12/15 by AdamR20]
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rodgling
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| posted on 1/12/15 at 10:18 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by AdamR20
Thought about / investigated the above also... Can't think of anything else it could be. Theory dictates they should be the same but my own
findings have been different. I subscribe to both routes in everything I do on a car (theoretical and "actual" ), and usually find they
co-incide, which is why I'm confused here!
On a similar note, the brakes perform the same on both cars in terms of which wheel locks first and the overall front to rear bias, both with and
without a passenger, so I'm fairly sure there's no air in the system. There is an uphill route which crosses the engine bay to the NSF
wheel, but this is the same on the hard lines and is never a problem to bleed through.
The lines were from Rally Design, so hopefully not cheap rubbish.
If I do fond a definitive solution, I'll come back and post it!
[Edited on 1/12/15 by AdamR20]
As a simple test, remove the calipers and block off the lines, e.g. with a nut and bolt on a banjo fitting, or a blind hole on a male fitting, and
bleed them. Pedal should then feel absolutely rock solid, even with braided lines. If it doesn't, isolate the faulty part by blocking off at
different points and eliminating various bits of braided line. If hoses are OK, add the calipers one by one until you find the fault.
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AdamR20
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| posted on 1/12/15 at 10:32 AM |
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I like that - simple and methodical (like me). Cheers
Problem now is being arsed to do anything about it, the car goes well despite the 'meh' brakes, and I have a scratch build to be getting
on with
[Edited on 1/12/15 by AdamR20]
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britishtrident
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| posted on 1/12/15 at 11:35 AM |
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Sounds like an caliper problem to me the difference in stiffness between braided and solid pipe work exist but would be a mm or less at the pedal.
Likewise unlikely to be caused by an up hill loop as modern small bore systems are unlikely to have trapped air.
With rubber-textile reinforced flexy hoses it is easy to track down a caliper issue much more difficult isolating a wheel with braided because you
can't clamp off a hose.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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britishtrident
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| posted on 1/12/15 at 12:30 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by AdamR20
I like that - simple and methodical (like me). Cheers
Problem now is being arsed to do anything about it, the car goes well despite the 'meh' brakes, and I have a scratch build to be getting
on with
[Edited on 1/12/15 by AdamR20]
Caliper issues tend to get gradually worse as pads wear, it is so gradual the driver mentally adjusts to it without noticing
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 1/12/15 at 06:21 PM |
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quote:
The internal pipe is rigid teflon lined PTFE, the hoses have been tested to 18,000psi in 24hr "whip tests" where the end of the hose is
left unattached & allowed to whip around as fluid is forced thro' at 18,000psi (that's something like 20 times+ the highest pressure
you're likely to achieve in any normal braking sytem), they have to survive this test to be certified - before anyone says anything daft - this
is a one off test that hoses of the same type are subject to, not a test for each hose made!
Teflon IS PTFE, and it's FAR from rigid. Hence my point. The only thing that makes it more rigid is it's restrained by the braiding, which
itself allows some expansion as the braiding tightens against itself (not much, but some). It's better than good old rubber (that's why
it's an upgrade to normal cars) but it's NOT better than solid pipe for bulk runs.
quote:
I have bad experience with braided brake and fuel hoses.The reasons I try to avoid them (1)The only new flex brake hoses I have ever encountered with
manufacturing faults were the braided type. (2) I encountred more than a few fuel hoses on old military vehicles and BMC cars where the metal braiding
had caused pin hole punctures in the hose.
Yep, I've seen several tin-top flexis fail by the braiding parting ways with the end connection and allowing burst of the liner too -
that's down to care in fitting and proper design (these were fitted in a twisted position which then repeatedly took the braiding way into high
deformation in one direct and back out in the other, fatigue hell.
[Edited on 1/12/15 by coyoteboy]
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