Mezzz
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| posted on 1/5/06 at 07:13 PM |
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What engine is best in a BEC?
Ok so I have decided a few things now
A) Im going to get a BEC. Even though I thought a fist that there were noisy and a Bike engine in a car took a while to get my head round it?
B) Its going to be a MK or Stuart Taylor
C) Im going to buy a completed one new or second hand don’t mind
Right now I just don’t know enough about bike engines to know what one to get?
R1
Fireblade
GSX (if there called that)
Thoughts please
[Edited on 1/5/06 by Mezzz]
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G.Man
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| posted on 1/5/06 at 07:23 PM |
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Their are 2 T's in Thought...
R1 would suit most people... simplicity of install and reliability in the application..
Make sure you get a Torque resiliant tube prop if you want the gearbox to last..
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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zxrlocost
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| posted on 1/5/06 at 07:26 PM |
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whats one of those props
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 1/5/06 at 07:35 PM |
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AKA a "TRT", search it, there's been lots of mentions of them, basically a prop thats made from two tubes with rubber in between to
dissipate some of the transimission shock.
If doing it again I would have one to smooth out the transmission and give a bit of extra protection to the gearbox, but I dont currently have one and
Ive not had any gearbox problems in 4 years hard track / road use so its not absolutely essential.
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G.Man
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| posted on 1/5/06 at 07:57 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ChrisGamlin
AKA a "TRT", search it, there's been lots of mentions of them, basically a prop thats made from two tubes with rubber in between to
dissipate some of the transimission shock.
If doing it again I would have one to smooth out the transmission and give a bit of extra protection to the gearbox, but I dont currently have one and
Ive not had any gearbox problems in 4 years hard track / road use so its not absolutely essential.
Cant be that hard, they dont last 4 years in a bike on the track...
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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Guinness
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| posted on 1/5/06 at 07:57 PM |
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The best engine in a BEC is one of those how long is a bit of string style questions.
You have five basic elements to consider, and finding the perfect balance between them will come down to individual choice.
In no particular order:- Power, Cost, Age, Reliabilty, History. They are all inter-linked.
The most powerful bike engines are the Busa and the ZX12R, or even a Busa Turbo. These make big BHP, but are expensive to buy, then you try to decide
if you should spend more cash dry sumping it, baffling it or just risking it. And if it does go bang, you've got a lot of money to spend to
replace the engine. Then there are the ZZR1100 and the Blackbird, both OK, but the ZZR's will all be older engines and the 'birds have a
bit of a reputation for oil problems. Then there are the R1's which make big power, but still command a premium price. Blades and ZX9R's
seem to be falling out of favour, so they are coming down in price a bit. But they have the big advantage in that lots of people have installed them
in cars before, so you can buy parts off the shelf (exhaust manifolds and prop adaptors etc).
Then you have the left field engines, the Triumph triple and the V-Twins, the flat four Honda thing etc. Nothing wrong with them, but you'll
more than likely find you're on your own when it comes to problem solving / getting custom parts made.
If you buy a cheap engine, odds are it'll be down on power or older. If you buy a new engine, you'll pay top whack. If you buy a rare
engine, you'll pay for custom parts to be made and you'll be the guinea pig / test mule! If you go fuel injected then you can play around
with the map with a laptop, but you'll face stricter emmissions testing. If you go carbs, you'll need to consider changing jets, needles
etc.
As it is you are looking to buy a completed car, so for each car you look at the owner / builder will have already made this decision. Then it will
come down to making any decision about buying a car. Does it look right, does it drive OK, does it have the right paperwork. If those three are all
there, buy it. If any one element is missing, walk away, there will be another car along in a minute.
HTH
Mike
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 1/5/06 at 09:48 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
Cant be that hard, they dont last 4 years in a bike on the track...
Touche! What you didnt mention is that they break on race bikes for entirely different reasons, on a race bike they'll rarely use the clutch so
there's no wonder they go through gearboxes fairly quickly.
Although as I said previously its worthwhile having as extra protection and a slightly smoother driveline, IMO 90% of what causes gearbox failure is
the nut behind the wheel and other influences such as sloppy gear linkages etc, not how hard the car is driven or whether it has a TRT.
[Edited on 1/5/06 by ChrisGamlin]
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Mezzz
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| posted on 1/5/06 at 11:17 PM |
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Could some one wright me a list of the common bike engines in order of BHP?
Right well a few posts a little off the subject
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graememk
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| posted on 1/5/06 at 11:26 PM |
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blade, cheaper well used parts fom shelf loads of users on here
r1 better engine but more£££
imho
i hear zetecs are quite good
[Edited on 1/5/06 by graememk]
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G.Man
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| posted on 2/5/06 at 04:06 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ChrisGamlin
quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
Cant be that hard, they dont last 4 years in a bike on the track...
Touche! What you didnt mention is that they break on race bikes for entirely different reasons, on a race bike they'll rarely use the clutch so
there's no wonder they go through gearboxes fairly quickly.
Although as I said previously its worthwhile having as extra protection and a slightly smoother driveline, IMO 90% of what causes gearbox failure is
the nut behind the wheel and other influences such as sloppy gear linkages etc, not how hard the car is driven or whether it has a TRT.
[Edited on 1/5/06 by ChrisGamlin]
To Be fair Chris, one of the main reasons for going BEC is to use the Sequential box for clutchless shifts.. ie to drive it harder..
Yes I know you will get away without one, but bikes have a cush drive for a reason..
Anyway, in order of BHP
ZX12
Busa
Blackbird
R1
Blade
Are the common ones....
Newer R1 and GSXR are just coming onboard along with ZX14...
Zx14 top power, Newer R1/GSXR1000 are above Blackbird...
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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zxrlocost
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| posted on 2/5/06 at 08:32 AM |
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I will buy a ZX14 when it comes available
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tks
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| posted on 2/5/06 at 09:13 AM |
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mhh
did it read it quickly..
Buy as much bhp as you can and maintain the engine/car weight as low as possible then you will have optimum performance
i also think chris that many gearbox chit comes because we don´t know good what we buy...
how we now how the box is when it arrives??? we cant look easy in it, sow i think nobody opensup his box/engine before mounting it in..to check the
status..
what i want to say is in fact you could have 2 R1 installas in the same car, but because of the history difference of the engine the results of the
box durability could be totally outline...
Tks
p.s. the TRT absorbs something of the bling....
a free cluch and a warm engine will take away another alloot of that sound..
also that bling doesn´t represent 190bhp
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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chaos999
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| posted on 2/5/06 at 09:24 AM |
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As a Triumph Triple user I can only but recommend them!
The Daytona 955i now kicks out 140+ BHP and the best bit, you can pick them up for £600 ish complete. With this you get 3 cyl fuel injectd engine. It
pulls in 6th from 35mph like a train and has glorious engine (intake + exhaust note).
Not chosen by many as little experience of them. All I can say is they are really quite simple and strong. Thought I destroyed on after 5 hours
hooning at Brands but was the prop centre bolt. Bought 11K replacement for £450!! all in incl throttle bodies.
Wiring is simple and no sump mods etc.. seems fine. Done 1 LeMans trip and the 2nd is next month. I used to have a CBR1000 Striker and that engine is
amazing for cost too. £500 - £600 but heavy lump.
I can easily pick up the 955i engine complete but wasn't able to lift into car on own :-))
Simon
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Mezzz
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| posted on 2/5/06 at 11:52 AM |
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Ok
Honda fireblade 919rry engine
or
ZX9r engine
The two car that I like have those engines in them? What engine is more powerfull (BHP)
Sorry to edit the post but there is one other car with a
2001 Suzuki GSXR1000
So out of those 3?
[Edited on 2/5/06 by Mezzz]
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Moorron
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| posted on 2/5/06 at 12:12 PM |
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I HAVE BEEN OFFERED A GSX1400? 1 year old. is this a good engine or is it too big and heavy?
Sorry about my spelling, im an engineer and only work in numbers.
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wildchild
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| posted on 2/5/06 at 12:35 PM |
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aren't they air/oil cooled rather than water cooled? Might take some thinking about to keep it cool under the bonnet.
it will be relatively heavy for a bike engine but I imagine its still a lot lighter than a comparable car engine.
I also imagine it's got a huge amount of torque compared to most bike engines, so it would probably go quite well in a car.
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 2/5/06 at 04:49 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
To Be fair Chris, one of the main reasons for going BEC is to use the Sequential box for clutchless shifts.. ie to drive it harder..
Upshifts maybe, but Im not sure many without deep pockets practice clutchless downshifts too often unlike a lot of racers, and IMHO thats where a lot
of the damage would be done. If you break a gearbox because of clutchless changes though, its not failed due to a lack of TRT...
quote:
Yes I know you will get away without one, but bikes have a cush drive for a reason..
We seem to agree then, there is a benefit to having one as I said, but its not absolutely essential. 
[Edited on 2/5/06 by ChrisGamlin]
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 2/5/06 at 04:53 PM |
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The ZX9 is pokier than a blade, the only compromise is thats its a bit short geared compared to the blade / R1 and most other BEC suitable engines, so
you really need a very high diff (ie 3.3 or numerically lower) and/or large diameter tyres to give you decent top speed, whereas blades / R1s you can
get away with 3.54 in a live axle (the highest available), or 3.6x IRS.
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G.Man
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| posted on 2/5/06 at 06:00 PM |
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Er chris, have you ever heard of a slipper clutch???
All the bike racers I am refering to have slippers so the clutch is automatically pulled in on downshifts.. Everyone else should be using the clutch
if they dont want to lock the back wheel...
Clutchless shifting is not the big issue you are making it out to be, far worse is the lack of snatch absorbtion in the driveline... A clutchless
shift has less snatch than a clutched shift...
A bike gearbox has as much slack as is needed for a gearchange with a properly executed clutchless change as it does with a perfect clutched
change...
The snatch cause the dogs to smash into each other with no shock absorbtion that you get with a TRT/Cush Drive...
The real reason racers break a lot of gearboxes? Cheap wheels that have the sprokets bolted straight to the wheel with no cush drive...
If you buy top end alloys they have harder cush drive rubbers that are much better than none... marchesinis etc
This is merely my experience from many years as a race technician in Bemsee, MRO and BSB...
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 2/5/06 at 07:29 PM |
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quote:
This is merely my experience from many years as a race technician in Bemsee, MRO and BSB...
I bow to your superior ego knowledge 
Seriously though, surely a slipper clutch only reacts to a gearchange? Unless its a full electronic solenoid controlled clutch/gearchange it
doesnt know when the rider is going to downchange so cant de-clutch before he shifts, so wont become effective and allow slip until after the change
has taken place and the rear wheel starts to drive the engine in the lower gear? If so the initial shock on the dogs of going into a lower gear under
load without matched revs will already have happened before the slipper kicks in, the same as without the slipper, although maybe it helps on
subsequent changes after the first as the clutch will presumably stay partially disengaged throughout the braking area?
[Edited on 2/5/06 by ChrisGamlin]
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chockymonster
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| posted on 2/5/06 at 07:50 PM |
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Going from what I've read so I may have misunderstood!
You can downshift without the slipper as it's job is to make the best of engine braking and stop the engine over speeding. If you constantly
down shift without clutch then it will wear the plates quicker.
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G.Man
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| posted on 2/5/06 at 08:07 PM |
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Chris, a slipper clutch has ramps that disengage the pressure plate as soon as you come off the throttle...
Just because you have had one car last 4 years of track days could be as much down to luck as anything else...
I have heard a few drivers say "no need for a TRT I have never had gearbox problems" and then they have a blown gearbox...
So a slipper clutch reacts to coming off the throttle, not a gearchange...
It disengages the clutch and slips it to stop the engine braking locking the back wheel... ie it is slipping before you even touch the gearlever...
I hope this explains how a slipper works, if it doesnt please ask for further info..
Its nout about ego's its about facts rather than opinions...
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 2/5/06 at 08:11 PM |
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Not really no, with a slipper clutch you get very little / no engine braking. Without a slipper (which you won't generally have from the factory
and is only an aftermarket race bike upgrade) you get engine braking but shouldnt really downchange at all without the clutch, as you'll likely
lock the rear wheels (due to too much engine braking) and in my opinion start taking chunks off the gear dogs.
On an engine without a slipper clutch you shouldnt significantly wear the clutch plates either way though, with or without the clutch.
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G.Man
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| posted on 2/5/06 at 08:14 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by chockymonster
Going from what I've read so I may have misunderstood!
You can downshift without the slipper as it's job is to make the best of engine braking and stop the engine over speeding. If you constantly
down shift without clutch then it will wear the plates quicker.
No it allows you to downshift to the right gear for the corner without worrying about rev matching...
It disengages the clutch by using ramps to take off the spring load... once the springs are released the clutch slips as if you have the clutch pulled
in...
it reacts almost instantaneously as soon as you come off the throttle in the same way as the gearbox disengages the dogs instantaneously when you back
off the throttle for a clutchless upshift...
What you gain with the slipper clutch is less load on the box in a downshift, as well as the ability to sgift from 6th to 2nd (say) at the end of a
long straight going into a hairpin without worrying about rev matching...
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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G.Man
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| posted on 2/5/06 at 08:15 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ChrisGamlin
Not really no, with a slipper clutch you get very little / no engine braking. Without a slipper (which you won't generally have from the factory
and is only an aftermarket race bike upgrade) you get engine braking but shouldnt really downchange at all without the clutch, as you'll likely
lock the rear wheels (due to too much engine braking) and in my opinion start taking chunks off the gear dogs.
On an engine without a slipper clutch you shouldnt significantly wear the clutch plates either way though, with or without the clutch.
Correct
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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