D Beddows
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| posted on 2/3/10 at 04:15 PM |
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quote:
But if you use a FWD donor, all that work is done for you. Simply take your FWD engine / box / diff etc and bolt it to your new chassis in the same
position. Take your hot hatch of choice, fit the oily bits to a nice space frame. Add a light weigh body and instantly your power to weight ratio
goes up by 50% to 100%. I'd have thought this would be the easiest type of kit conversion.
Well that's what I'd have thought too... even with a bit of ballast in the back surely it's going to be seriously lighter than a
standard hot hatch.......
I know this is controversial too but very few of us are as good a driver as we think we are so all this 'feeling the road better' is a bit
of a bluff isn't it? my first few cars were all rwd because that's pretty much all there was and I don't remember 'feeling the
road' any better...... lol
[Edited on 2/3/10 by D Beddows]
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se7en
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| posted on 2/3/10 at 04:26 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Humbug
Also, there are a few kits (and home designs) that use FWD engine and transmission to give mid-rear layout with RWD. Maybe that's the way to go?
The result just doesn't look much like a seven.
It looks like that the FWD engine/box/diff mounted mid to rear is the most obvious way to go. RWD road cars are getting scarce (ex mx5 & bmw)
IMHO I would like to see more FWD in the rear - the Mojo and a few others have gone that way using Ford units. Nobody has done it with VW FWD units.
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mcerd1
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| posted on 2/3/10 at 04:26 PM |
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I think the main reson is its hard to make them look good (its not easy for the mid engined ones either mind)
quote:
Originally posted by smart51
Take your hot hatch of choice, fit the oily bits to a nice space frame. Add a light weigh body and instantly your power to weight ratio goes up by
50% to 100%. I'd have thought this would be the easiest type of kit conversion.
forgetting the space frame bit - thats called squeezing a big modern engine into a small light weight hot/warm hatch (i.e. old hot hatch)
think XE engined nova's, Mi16 engined 205's, duratec engined fiesta's and 16v mini's - with mixed results and soem handeling
issues on the high powered stuff
another question to ask is if ther is nothing wrong with FWD then how come there are so many RWD conversion kits for FWD chassis 
[Edited on 2/3/10 by mcerd1]
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whitestu
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| posted on 2/3/10 at 04:41 PM |
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This is one of the best: Minari, based on Alfa 33. They go pretty well with a 1.7 16v motor in them.
 
Description
Not many of these about though.
Stu
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sucksqueezebangblow
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| posted on 2/3/10 at 04:41 PM |
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The bottom line is that FWD cars are the result of compromise. They are cheaper to build, and they allow the most space for occupants, luggage etc.
for the price. FWD cars give you compromised control over the front as you are putting both power and steering inputs through the same set of wheels,
and control over the rear is compromised as you have no input other than the handbrake (and lift off oversteer)
RWD (or 4WD) is the layout of choice for performance and space/layout is compromised to achieve it. RWD gives you good control over both ends of the
car, the front via steering and the rear via throttle.
Kit car builders tend to be performance car enthusiasts and so go for RWD (or 4WD)
Better to Burnout than to Fade Away JET METAL ~ AndySparrow © 
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D Beddows
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| posted on 2/3/10 at 04:54 PM |
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Ok then, devils advocate again - how many people who insist a rwd car is 'better' have ever actually driven a rwd car with a seriously
high power to weight ratio before building a 'kit' to actually know? or is it because everyone says it is? 
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boggle
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| posted on 2/3/10 at 05:59 PM |
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have driven a 470hp rx7 and a 400+hp subaru and a 300hp escort rs turbo...
the rx7 was scarey but fun and good off the line...but terrifieing in the wet.....traction controll was a godsend!!!
the subaru was good all round and allways felt safe even up to 175....
the rs turbo was only any good over 60mph in 3rd gear....way to much torque stear and wheelspin......
just because you are a character, doesnt mean you have character....
for all your bespoke parts, ali welding, waterjet, laser, folding, turning, milling, composite work, spraying, anodising and cad drawing....
u2u me for details
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Stott
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| posted on 2/3/10 at 07:38 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by D Beddows
but then why do people lust after 'Z' cars minis every time they're mentioned? fwd as I recall.......
Because they have taken an iconic looking car, space framed it, put a K20 in the boot............
and made it RWD!!!
http://www.zcars.org.uk/mini/index.htm
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Steve G
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| posted on 2/3/10 at 07:45 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by fesycresy
How else are you supposed to impress the girls in Tesco's car park ?
Just fit some neons the the underside of the car to make it look like a spaceship, slam it to the ground by cutting the springs, and fill the boot
with audio - seems to work around Liverpool!!!
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whitestu
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| posted on 2/3/10 at 07:49 PM |
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quote:
Ok then, devils advocate again - how many people who insist a rwd car is 'better' have ever actually driven a rwd car with a seriously
high power to weight ratio before building a 'kit' to actually know? or is it because everyone says it is
I disagree with all the RWD advocates. FWD is better, but not with too much power.
Drive an early Alfasud - Not sure it ispossible to have more fun in a car!
Stu
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GRRR
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| posted on 2/3/10 at 08:23 PM |
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I think that which one is 'better' is difficult to say, but for an average driver, catching a slide and maybe holding it for a bit,
however small the slide, is a million times more exhilarating than waiting to get on the accelerator, trying to stop understeering towards the nearest
hedge!
[Edited on 2/3/10 by GRRR]
[Edited on 2/3/10 by GRRR]
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MakeEverything
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| posted on 2/3/10 at 08:30 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by dan__wright
ok let me rephrase that, you cant get as sideways in a controlable manner in a fwd.
Yes you can. I used to do it all the time in my audi A3, but it is a different drive requiring more of a "Flick-it" action than a
"Floor-it" action.
FWD cars require more throttle to recover sideways action, whereas RWD cars dont.
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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GRRR
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| posted on 2/3/10 at 08:35 PM |
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I asked this question a while back too, I think there's definitely a market for a pretty looking 'sporty' convertible or small coupe
with fwd setup from a saxo, or fiesta, to hopefully tempt more people into kit cars.
But!!! at the price it would end up at, there's too many other options like mk3 MR2, 206cc that already fit that brief
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Bluemoon
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| posted on 2/3/10 at 09:11 PM |
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RWD because contact patch at front steers, rears take the power. On a FWD the front wheels take the power and steer, rears just follow. Go figure
what will lose traction first..
Dan
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Toltec
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| posted on 2/3/10 at 10:10 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by GRRR
I asked this question a while back too, I think there's definitely a market for a pretty looking 'sporty' convertible or small coupe
with fwd setup from a saxo, or fiesta, to hopefully tempt more people into kit cars.
But!!! at the price it would end up at, there's too many other options like mk3 MR2, 206cc that already fit that brief
Except the MkIII mr2 is Mid Rwd, there is the new Renault Wind of course.
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procomp
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| posted on 2/3/10 at 11:40 PM |
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Hi
Now i admit i haven't read all the replies so bare with me if this has already been mentioned.
Take a serious look at all these so called Midi Kits where they have just taken the FWD drive train and mounted it in the back. There is not a single
one of them that realy has any handing to challenge a seven type layout. They are appalling. The trouble is that the overall weight of the kit when
finished is still quite light. But you have now moved the whole drive train to one end. Now whether that happens to be the front or the rear you have
just created a rather significant problem. It just doesn't work. Now if you take say a hot hatch which has a better weight distribution due to
it's over all higher weight it dose not become such an issue but the lighter you go the worse the problem.
So the end result is if you want a good FWD kit it will need to be as heavy as a hot hatch with a few bits of interior removed. Mmm Might aswell go
buy a decent hot-hatch and have some fun. Strikes me thats what many on here are already doing doing with Clio's etc.
Cheers Matt
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 2/3/10 at 11:50 PM |
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Nice FWD car
[Edited on 3/3/10 by MikeRJ]
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morcus
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| posted on 3/3/10 at 03:42 AM |
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I'm no expert but I was under the impression that its possible to put more power out through the back, not just because of things like torque
stear but because you can get gear boxes built to take high powers for longitudinal engines. There are FWD cars with longitdinal engines but it means
the weight distribution is centre even further forward which is bad for handling.
In a White Room, With Black Curtains, By the Station.
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D Beddows
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| posted on 3/3/10 at 02:49 PM |
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quote:
Take a serious look at all these so called Midi Kits where they have just taken the FWD drive train and mounted it in the back. There is not a single
one of them that realy has any handing to challenge a seven type layout. They are appalling. The trouble is that the overall weight of the kit when
finished is still quite light. But you have now moved the whole drive train to one end. Now whether that happens to be the front or the rear you have
just created a rather significant problem. It just doesn't work. Now if you take say a hot hatch which has a better weight distribution due to
it's over all higher weight it dose not become such an issue but the lighter you go the worse the problem. So the end result is if you want a
good FWD kit it will need to be as heavy as a hot hatch with a few bits of interior removed. Mmm Might aswell go buy a decent hot-hatch and have some
fun. Strikes me thats what many on here are already doing doing with Clio's etc.
Yup agree with all that...... BUT is a bit of extra weight really such a bad thing? you could add the ballast where it's needed rather than
where it has to be. If we're talking about racing/competition it's a different matter obviously (although the 750 Hot Hatch lap times
compare quite favourably to the Kits..... but that's a different topic  ) but for a car that spends 90% of it's time on the road with
the odd track day maybe........you'd have so much more choice for donor parts for one thing..
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smart51
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| posted on 3/3/10 at 03:29 PM |
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Is there a front mid engined FWD car that could be used as a donor? That would improve the weight balance a bit. As for more power through RWD, I
believe that 200 BHP through a FWD set up is fine and that most people on here build cars with less than that.
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boggle
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| posted on 3/3/10 at 04:25 PM |
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the mitsubishi evo has the engine in the same way as a fwd car but runs through a transfer box......
just because you are a character, doesnt mean you have character....
for all your bespoke parts, ali welding, waterjet, laser, folding, turning, milling, composite work, spraying, anodising and cad drawing....
u2u me for details
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iank
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| posted on 3/3/10 at 04:34 PM |
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Ah just figured out what you mean (engage brain) FWD with the gearbox at the front.
Renault 5
VW Beetle
Porsche 911
The R5 was used in the Hudson Free/Kindred Spirit trikes
Beetle and 911 might be considered cheating, but if moved to the front of the car would work as you suggest.
[Edited on 3/3/10 by iank]
--
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Anonymous
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smart51
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| posted on 3/3/10 at 05:48 PM |
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using a beetle / 911 RWD donor to make a FWD kit would seem a bit bloody minded. Renault 5s are probably not modern or powerful enough for most. The
Toyota IQ has its diff at the front but the bigest engine is a 1.33 88 BHP lump that is probably not enough. And they're too new.
They're short enough front to back to make a good donor for a 2 seater in the future though.
Is there a way of turning a FWD engine round without it having 5 reverse gears and 1 forwards?
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mcerd1
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| posted on 3/3/10 at 05:52 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by smart51
Is there a way of turning a FWD engine round without it having 5 reverse gears and 1 forwards?
turn it upside down
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D Beddows
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| posted on 3/3/10 at 05:56 PM |
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quote:
Ah just figured out what you mean (engage brain) FWD with the gearbox at the front.
Lol, no, you were right first time I suspect I was talking about fwd donor parts in a fwd kit car.... Matt distracted me a little perhaps lol
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