Right , theres no seperate section for roll cages - i think it might be good as a sticky topic since so many questions are asked about MSA specs , road use etc etc .

Anyway , my first question would be .

why not start with the roll cage , then make the chassis to it ?

Does that make it difficult to get certified .

Does the manufacturer of the cage have to install it ?

In a tin top , i can buy a weld incage myself , and it would pass scrutineering - so whats the deal with us locosters ?

The blue book is now, officially, on line here
http://www.msauk.org/site/cms/contentviewarticle.asp?article=646

The regulations regarding roll cage design are in the pdf called "C(c) Competitors - Safety" clicky here

There are lots of diagrams showing cage designs the MSA consider to be appropriate towards the back.

AFAIK so long as the design is certified by the designer (e.g. Procomp) and has it's certificate then it's ok no matter who installs it (providing the scrutineers are happy with the mounting, diagrams also in C(c)).

So I think starting with the cage and designing a chassis around it is perfectly feasible and won't make things harder - but should in theory make it easier as you are starting with a known strong shape.

i always thought the chassis and cage should be designed together, madness to do them seperately when you think about it.

Just an update to the links above
http://www.msauk.org/site/cms/contentviewarticle.asp?article=876

Is a link to the 2010 blue book section. Pity it is not one download but lots of smaller ones.
Adrian

So long as your cage complies with the appropriate drawing in the MSA blue book and the material dimensions and specifications are as per the book, then you do not need 'certification' of the cage.
However if you designed a cage from different spec/size materials or did not follow the drawings then you would need a certificate from the manufacturer to prove that the cage is suitable.
Note also that there are different requirements depending on which category your car comes under. 'Sports Libre' requires larger diameter tubing than 'modified' categories.

keep the info coming .

so how does a Z cars mini fit in to all this ?

I have made a few cages before which have passed MSA, as above no need to be certified, just make to the rules.

If I made my car again I would build the lower frame, add suitable strengthing plates as defined and build out the roll cage, then hang the upper frame around this.

MSA scrutineers feel for joined metal so design for continous lengths then get someone with a proper mandrel bender to bend the tubes, its very hard to keep everthing in the same plane, so purchase as a preformed to your specification flat pack.

They will also examine the welds and bracing, proper fishmouths required, do not try and fill gaps with weld.

Make sure its high enough for you...

Bolt in cages like the caged type need to be fitted properly on proper welded in mounts to keep the scrutineers happy. The fitting kit supplied with my Westfield Caged cage would have been laughed out of scrutineering. Its best to get someone with experience/manufacturer to fit the cage.
Pro Comp fitted mine, in hindsight I would have got them to make a cage on the car (good old hindsight!!!)

Quite a lot of 'proper' racing space frame chassis are designed/built around roll over/intrusion protection.

Like this DSR chassis, most of these types of car are made completely from CDS or t45 or in the case of this one 4130 aircraft grade seamless tube. This chassis is the protection

I build the cage first, then welded the rest of the chassis to it. As said above, it's nuts to build the entire car and then bolt on a cage.

Ok, Ive built a chassis, and fitted threaded bosses for cage mounting feet in the suspension towers. Can anyone advise what I need to do to build an acceptable cage?

quote:

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Originally posted by alistairolsen
Ok, Ive built a chassis, and fitted threaded bosses for cage mounting feet in the suspension towers. Can anyone advise what I need to do to build an acceptable cage?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ben_Copeland

quote:

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Originally posted by alistairolsen
Ok, Ive built a chassis, and fitted threaded bosses for cage mounting feet in the suspension towers. Can anyone advise what I need to do to build an acceptable cage?

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i dont like the idea of Threaded bosses for a roll cage.

Weld it in and it'll be much better.

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Also, keep in mind that when you use a structural fastener that load carrying capability as well as fasteners quality is also is well known (lots of test data and the [high-strength]. So, if you know the load, you can calculate the fastener required (and actually give it whatever margin of safety floats your boat).

4 off M12x1.5 sockethead cap screws (12.9) on each side of the main hoop so far.

I didnt want to weld it on as id like to be able to remove it in the future if necessary!

Hi

A few thins to clear up regarding MSA FIA.

If a cage is constructed from 45mm dia tubing that complies with the blue book then anyone can manufacture /fit it. As long as it complies with the MSA/FIA blue book criteria.

However if below the 45mm DIA then for use under MSA /FIA it has to be certificated. which will now cost 2k plus as full crash testing has to take place on the cage and chassis as a combined construction. And then it can only be fitted installed by the manufacturer or the agents who are licenced and registered on the MSA/FIA paper work that goes with that design.

And yes that dose mean that the majority of rollcages being sold in magazines DT Etc Etc are being sold illegally for MSA/FIA use. and the majority of cages sold for kitcars and Westfields in particular are also being sold illegally and the so called certificate and labels are meaningless.

And yes the scrutineers are cracking down on it as has been seen with the majority of MK rollcages being refused at race meetings.

Cheers Matt

thanks matt ,

given this scenario , of making a roll cage before the chassis is made , as long as its to the blue book specifications , it would appear to be ok .

in the case of it being part of the chassis , ie the uprights where the dash mounts to , and it didnt have any mounting plates at the bottom of the tube , is that part of the chassis or the roll cage ?

i dont want to spend £700 on a cage that doesnt pass scrutineering , so im thinking that i should make a new chassis with the cage incorporated into the design , ie built first .

When making the cage to the blue book, do you need to follow the guidelines and drawings exactly?
I'm thinking of making my own but wish to copy the curved roof bars in the Caterham cages. I know the book says you can have a X brace roff bars, but would curved roof bars be included in that?
Is it a case of read between the lines abit?
If anyone can shed some light on this for me that'll be great!

Graham

Hi

You need to follow the drawing and text very closely. Roof bars that are not straight ( only certificated cages are allowed to deviate from the drawing in the book ) are part of the reason why so many non certificated cages even in 45mm are being thrown out of MSA events. And the fact that the front legs have two or double bends when the very first section of the text clearly states that this is not allowable. And feet / mountings not being attached as per the MSA FIA criteria. Tubes mounted to chassis rails that are in fresh air with no support.

Cheers Matt

So this design for instance:




If constructed at home from the required tubing would be unsuitable due to the bends at the base of the A pillars, double bends in the rear loop and curved roof bars to clear helmet tops?

on this one:




the two loops are ok, but again the roof bars present a problem?

But then looking at yours:




The roof rals are curved again?

Id imagine with straight roof rails and the full tubing thickness above your helmet the cage would get very high, the front loop and the rear would need to be close on the same height and to avoid the issues with bends in the cage feet one would have to bring the front legs down inside the cockpit which utterly destroys the legroom?

The last one has a certificate

quote:

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http://www.procomp.co.uk/rollcage.html
MIRA have tested and passed the cage, chassis and mountings to FIA requirements.
[and]
The MSA have issued a roll over protection certificate.

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Hi

The mountings on the first pic do not comply with MSA.
The other cage with the roof bars clearly do not comply.

The cage shown on our car is fully certificated to the very latest standards which include the mountings and the chassis as a whole structure. It is the only Seven type in the UK to have been through the latest tests.

Cheers Matt

Ok, so I CAN do the curved bars as the Caterham design BUT ONLY if i want to pay for certification. Otherwise I have got to follow the rules to the letter and do a completely straight barred cage.
I wasn't going to have any bends in the front legs as I knew that would be a problem.
Is it ok to add a horizontal bar in the rear hoop at shoulder height for harness bosses?
Too many questions not enough time! It's best to ask these to people that know tho!

Would the external style of mounting on the blue westfield A pillars be acceptable?

Hi

Without seeing exactly what chassis structure has been or not added inside can't really say. But if the mounting is as per the caged ones where it is mounted to an unsupported area of chassis with no vertical support and is hanging extensions that have been bolted through the chassis then it dose not comply and will have weakened the chassis to such an extent that the car can not be corner weighted as every time you drive it and place it back on the scales it will read different due to chassis flex.

Cheers Matt

OK....so is it possible to retro-fit a cage to something like a Phoenix (which I have) or a Fury and what would the ball park cost be ???

So i'm making up my cage and after reading the MSA blue book i've got some questions.....

My tube is CDS, 47ishmm (1/78" ) 2.5mm wall. Its welded to the top of the 4" plates on the ron champion style chassis.

My questions are ....

one end of the diagonal inside the roll hoop. It must be max 4" (100mm) from the roll hoop mounting on the chassis. Is that the whole tube, the middle of the tube or just any part of the tube?

The other end of the diagonal that goes by the drivers head - lots of people seem to weld it to the vertical part of the roll hoop - why isn't it put right into the corner? Is it easier to weld on the veritcal or are people worried about the heat of welding on the bent bit of tube?

The rear stays need to "attach near the roof line" and "near outer bends". I can't find a specified distance. How far can i inset them? is there any benefit?

The rear stays also need to be within 100mm of the diagonal in the hoop - how is this measured? if i have a 4" bit of wood and that touches both tubes at some point is that close enough? What about if they touch via angles 6" away from the actual roll hoop is that good enough?

finally (for now). I've not seen a racing seven with its seat belt mounts on the roll hoop - i've not read this being disallowed, is it? Is there any issue mounting the seat belts inside a bit of 3mm box welded to the back of a CDS tube (the idea being to move the bolt hole for the mounting the belt away from the diagonal tube to make sure it doesn't interfere).

Pictures can be badly drawn in paint if required.

[Edited on 10/3/10 by MikeR]

quote:

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Originally posted by procomp
And yes the scrutineers are cracking down on it as has been seen with the majority of MK rollcages being refused at race meetings.

Cheers Matt

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I believe the curved top longitudinals are an issue, as are the curved a pillar bars.

Does it have a double kink in the Front roll car then?

Cant see anything in the regs that says the 'longitudinal' or 'additional reinforcement bars' should be straight.

Anyone confirm?

[Edited on 15/4/10 by loggyboy]

Looks good to me, I can't see any insistence on these bars being straight in the blue book.

Hi

Technical Specifications

8. The front leg of a front or lateral rollbar must be
straight, or if this is not possible, must follow the
windscreen pillars and have only one bend with its
lower vertical part. Where the main rollbar forms the
rear legs of a lateral rollbar (see illustration Appendix 2,
drawing 6), the connection to the lateral rollbar must be
at roof level.

Neither the front legs or the roof bars comply with the regulations hence some cars have been made to change the roll cages. They DO NOT meet the very basic regulations.

Cheers Matt

I can completely understand the front bar, (although only one bend is clear from external pics, I'm guessing it kinks again once inside the car). I plan to have mine running externally, at an angle running down but with no kink at all.
However I cant seen any justification behind not allow the kink in the upper bar, I cant see any mention in the regs stating it has to be straight. Would be interesting to hear their reasoning behind it (if that is what it was being refused on aswell as the double kink in the front rollbar).

[Edited on 19/4/10 by loggyboy]

Hi.

Is the MK roll cage certificated. NO. So therefore it has to comply with the FIA/MSA drawings. Do the drawings show bends in the roof bars. NO its that simple.

Cheers Matt

Not that I want to get in to an argument with you as you clearly have more experience with me.

However, its clear the diagrams are there for guidance, its obvious they are based around tintop layouts for a start. The words are the absolute instructions IMO.

You yourself have quoted the text and the only bits that MUST be straight are:

[quotebluebook]The vertical part of the main rollbar
must be as straight as possible and as close as
possible to the interior contour of the bodyshell. The
front leg of a front rollbar or a lateral rollbar must be
straight, or if it is not possible, must follow the
windscreen pillars and have only one bend with its
lower vertical part.

NEWS FLASH.

Just found the diagram and words that show the top bars can be bent
Rescued attachment RollcageMSA.jpg

Remember that the MSA don't necessarily require a full roll cage for most speed events. - The MINIMUM is a roll bar with diagonal brace and two rear facing braces complying with the respective drawing in the "Blue Book'. The diameter and wall thickness and material grade are also specified.
The front cage and side/roof bars are therefore 'optional' and need not totally comply with the other MSA technical drawings (only the pickiest scrutes are likely to moan )
I do like a bit of scute baiting in the morning
However IMHO a full cage is really a necessity.

This is what made my mind up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFkw0gxmsUk

Hi

The problem is that the roof bars have a limit to how much of a bend they can have. As can be seen from the picture you have posted above it is not really a large bend. The bends that the MK rollcages have do not comply with the FIA/MSA regulations. Which is why the MSA scrutineers have excluded at least 5 cars fitted with those cages.

If you want to take issue with the regulations then i would suggest contacting the FIA as the UK runs under FIA ROPS regulations these days not MSA regulations. ROPS is quite a technical area of the regulations these days which is why the FIA/MSA invited all car manufacturers competing in the UK to a ROPS meeting a few years ago. Of course non of the kitcar manufacturers bothered to turn up except one. Which is why we now have a situation where virtually all kit car manufacturers are now fitting and supplying non compliant rollcages /roll bars for use under MSA/FIA regulations.

Cheers Matt

Hi Matt, have sent a mail to Procomp re rollcage (didn't want to hijack this thread) but not sure if it delivered! Would you mind checking for me please,

Cheers, Nick

quote:

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Originally posted by procomp
Hi

The problem is that the roof bars have a limit to how much of a bend they can have. As can be seen from the picture you have posted above it is not really a large bend. The bends that the MK rollcages have do not comply with the FIA/MSA regulations. Which is why the MSA scrutineers have excluded at least 5 cars fitted with those cages.

If you want to take issue with the regulations then i would suggest contacting the FIA as the UK runs under FIA ROPS regulations these days not MSA regulations. ROPS is quite a technical area of the regulations these days which is why the FIA/MSA invited all car manufacturers competing in the UK to a ROPS meeting a few years ago. Of course non of the kitcar manufacturers bothered to turn up except one. Which is why we now have a situation where virtually all kit car manufacturers are now fitting and supplying non compliant rollcages /roll bars for use under MSA/FIA regulations.

Cheers Matt

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Im getting myself a rollcage with my Mac Type 9. Hope thats up to spec!

I like it as it has some side impact protection too.

Hi

For those that where suggesting Via various U2U and emails that i was talking rubbish ( to put it politely ) regarding the conformity of the MK and MNR rollcage designs. well the FIA/MSA have issued in there latest news update what is acceptable regarding the bends in the front of rollcage designs.

http://e2ma.net/go/8399547049/2908145/95956524/2971/goto:http://www.msauk.org/uploadedfiles/newsletter/MSA_News_03_0610.pdf




Description [/img]

ROPS
Competitors are advised that the front
legs of front hoops or lateral rollbars
must be straight or, at most, be ‘pulled’
slightly so as to fit the profiles of vehicle
bodyshells. S-bends, such as shown in
the image above, are not acceptable.



So all in all that makes any Mk or MNR taking part in competition under FIA/MSA regulations non compliant.

Cheers Matt

Will they actually stop people entering though? There must be quite a few of them on the grid?

Yes. Having just had a roll cage fitted to my Striker, I was discussing the topic with a colleague, who races an MK indy. He had to replace the front hoop with one that had straight front legs. He also replaced the top bars with straight bars and a diagonal, although I think this was done more to ensure it got through on re-test rather than take the risk and have more re-work to do.

quote:

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So all in all that makes any Mk or MNR taking part in competition under FIA/MSA regulations non compliant.

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quote:

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Originally posted by procomp
So all in all that makes any Mk or MNR taking part in competition under FIA/MSA regulations non compliant.

Cheers Matt

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Hi

" That is a swathing statement to make "

OK lets cut through the BS here.

Do both the Mk and MNR front rollcage hoops have an S bend in them. Well all of the Mk ones i have seen certainly do.( which is why at least 6 cars have been refused race entry due to illegal rollcages) And the 4 MNR cars competing under MSA that i have seen do also.
Do the MK and MNR rollcages differ from the drawing in the FIA/MSA technical drawings. Yes they do.
So what does that then mean. Well it means that both rollcages will have to have been put forward for full FIA testing which includes the chassis and rollcage structures. If they have done so then the rollcages WILL be carrying ROPS labels on them and the drivers of the cars which have the rollcages fitted will have a copy of the FIA certification to present to the scrutineers.

Now do any of the MK or MNR rollcages fitted carry the ROPS labels and are the drivers of the cars in possession of the FIA certification paper work. ?

As for quoting that the rollcages are MSA approved. Well there is no such thing as MSA approved. All ROPS falls under FIA regulations there is no MSA regulations or approval.

Cheers Matt

Does any of this apply to purely road based cars? maybe with 1 or 2 track days here and there?

Also if I am to add the front hoop and stays to my 'approved' rear bar does the then said rear roll bar become illegal?

Can someone tell me when the blue book and MSA or ROPS or whatever apply?

Steve

(Currently building a full cage)

Hi

For pure road use it doesn't matter one bit. Well as long as your happy with the design you are using.

Track Days. Mmm well as it stands only a few organisers are insisting on FIA/MSA design rollcages or full FIA ROPS. But this will increase over the years as insurers will be wanting safety issues brought more in line with what the FIA/MSA use for racing on circuit. Although it will be many years away before all organisers will insist on full compliance.

Cheers Matt

quote:

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Originally posted by procomp
So all in all that makes any Mk or MNR taking part in competition under FIA/MSA regulations non compliant.

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quote:

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Originally posted by procomp
As for quoting that the rollcages are MSA approved. Well there is no such thing as MSA approved. All ROPS falls under FIA regulations there is no MSA regulations or approval.

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Anyone who has taken part in motorsport regularly will have met a variety of scrutineers. Some will let most things pass, some will pick up on things but let you run, some will stop you running on ANY technicality.

A scrutineer can stop you running for anything that IN HIS VIEW is an MSA regulation infringement.

You can argue till you're blue in the face that a cage is safe, and in all likelihood it is, but unless you can point to the specific regulations you are running the rollcage under in the Blue Book or an FIA standard number then the scrut has every right to stop you running. The point is that a badly designed cage can cause more damage than good.

I've seen a person stopped from running at a hillclimb because they were running a non-FIA approved, non MSA regulation roll cage in a class where a rollcage isn't required. Fair? Maybe not if the rollcage is safe. Necessary? Definitely if the rollcage could cause more damage in the event of an accident.

They can say 'that cage could be designed such that the bend in the tube could be removed, therefore you can't run'.

Its not your interpretation of the rules that matter at the end of the day.

quote:

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Originally posted by loggyboy

Therefore a rollcage that complies with the Blue book (the MSA regulations) is instantly approved by the MSA/FIA as its their own guidelines. If this was not the case the Bluebook would be redundant and pointless.

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quote:

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Originally posted by phelpsa
They are individual processes. The FIA test cages and give approval certificates. The MSA say 'we will accept the FIA approval, or a cage to these regulations in the blue book'. A cage to the MSA regulations won't necessarily meet the FIA standards in a test.

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Hi

The suggestion that i am in some way trying to promote my own rollcage design. Clearly shows yet more lack of understanding.
My fully certificated cage is only legal for fitment to certain cars and chassis design. And that does not include either the MK or the MNR.

This was a debate regarding rollcages. As it happens i do have quite a bit of knowledge regarding this subject because i have been through the process of full FIA certification and because i attend the FIA/MSA safety meetings regarding ROPS. During those meetings it is explained quite specifically as to what the FIA/MSA will and will not accept.

Now what really does get my goat is when people spend 15+K building a car to compete under FIA/MSA regulations and when they turn up for there first meeting they are told that the car does not comply with the very basic regulations laid out in the blue book. Just how do you think those people feel when they find out that there supplier of rollcage or manufacturer of there car has ignored all the basic info that is available and told the customer Ahh it OK we have done it that way before it's ok. !!! Yep thats right there are quite a few people who have turned up to race and been refused a scruitenering pass due to the BS and products they have been supplied. Ask your self how you would feel after laying out 15+k on a motor to then find yourself in that position. ?

So you will have to excuse me if you feel that way about my input to the debate. All i am doing is giving out what the FIA/MSA have said is and is not acceptable for use under FIA/MSA regulations. I have been quite clear regarding rollcages that comply to the drawing in the book and rollcages that do not and require full FIA testing. I don't see where you can get confused along those lines.

Cheers Matt

dumb question time .......is it a legal requirement to actualy have a role cage ........

no

hooooray

but bloody stupid not to have at least a rollbar!

How many MGF / Midgets etc have roll bars?

(i didn't include the MGF / MX5 as the bonded windscreen will provide some (no idea if its chocolate teapot of actually hold the car level) of support.

Me, i'm building a roll bar.

1275 cc single carb 145 x 14 inch tires and 22 years of driving ..........unlikely to roll the damn thing

Just thought I'd post a few pics of my Sylva Striker's new cage fabricated by Protection and Performance near Barnoldswick in Lancashire.

Description

Description

Description

quote:

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Originally posted by Volvorsport
... why not start with the roll cage , then make the chassis to it ?

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