Yep, I know, million posts about said subject title, but I want a post all of my own.
Anyway, I will shortly be building a locost which will be a purpose built BEC for track days and traffic light sprints.
As I want to start with the engine and build everything else around it, I need to decide the best option.
For a beginner who knows nothing about motorbike engine and having never ridden a motorbike, would I be right in saying that a Fireblade is probably the best route to go down, bearing in mind easy of installation, cost and driveability.
Cheers,
Pat...

I would go R1 - cheap power.......

Pat,

you know you're gonna get a lot of biased answers here, so let mine be the first.

Blade engines are still very popular and in my opinion are tried and tested over time and give very good value £/smiles. R1 engines are undoubtedly more powerful and lighter, but not as proven as a blade, simply because they haven't been around as long. ZX9's don't seem to be as abundant in kit cars but thats not to say they aren't up to the job.

Obviously the greater budget you have, the more powerful the engine you can choose from. But given all the limiting factors you mention, the Blade gets my vote.

.........or the R1......... or the ZX9, if I couldn't get a Blade

R1 or Busa Just because !

[Edited on 2-12-99 by a nut case]

[Edited on 2-12-04 by mangogrooveworkshop]

R1 gsxr1000 or busa
if you can do a blade or r1 you could do a busa,none of them are hard to do its just the price thats hard.
becouse your doing it for track days i would go for the best you can afford.
you could be thrashing the tits off the blade or r1 just to keep up with a subaru.
i couple of guys i know have been doing a few track days together one with the mk blade and one in a 280 bhp subaru and on the smaller tracks the blade has the edge but on the bigger tracks like oulton park the subaru has it,we will see how the busa stands up to it when the weather starts to get a little better

I'll try a different approach! Focussing on the negatives!

ZX9s I'm not keen on as the gearbox seems to be a weakness on them. Otherwise cheap and powerful.

GSXR1000s seemingly don't seem to like being turned longditudinally, can cause oil starvation, however with dry-sumping/baffling might be possible, Certainly a very powerful, light engine. I have a friend building a locost with one, It'll be interesting to see how he gets
My own thoughts are it's quite a pricey engine and unproven, although could be good.

Fireblade - proven, reliable, easy installation as everyone and his dog has one. Not the most powerful, but still pretty quick in a light car. The down downside is everyone and his dog has one! The price of these consequently isn't as cheap as they were!

R1 - Starting to become much more widely used and most folks don't seem to have that many problems with them, once the clutch is modified.More powerful than the blade, but not in the same territory as a busa, ZX12 etc. Pretty good value compared to the busa though.

Hayabusa - IMHO (sorry OX !) these are a great engine, but are they really worth twice (or even three times) the price of an R1?? Bear in mind it'll probably require dry sumping/baffling etc. The engine everyone wants, but this is it's main drawback as well.

ZX12 - I know nothing about these to be honest. Still unproven AFAIK. Even more poke than a standard Busa though.

GSXR1100 - Phelspa is a big fan of these, older suzuki engines, oil cooled, I have heard they can develope problems when turned longditudinally, but I don't know / remember any more details. Very cheap however and could be a good budget option.

Blackbird - These are a great engine however they do suffer from oil starvation when turned longditudinally even when dry sumped! I have a friend who's got through 3 of 'em so far!

CBR1000 - another older engine less powerful but again cheap and pretty bulletproof. Weighs more than the modern bike engines.

My apologies if I accidentally start a flame war :-)

My only defence is that these are my honest opinions!

All the best

Ali

hehe yip i know what your saying ali but all i can say is iv only been up and down the road in mine a few times and i new it would be more powerfull than the r1 but i wasnt expecting the sort of power it has ,it is bloody amazing

Fireblade- power as cheap as R1.

quote:

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Originally posted by OX
hehe yip i know what your saying ali but all i can say is iv only been up and down the road in mine a few times and i new it would be more powerfull than the r1 but i wasnt expecting the sort of power it has ,it is bloody amazing

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you don't really need to dry sump the busa..just look at duncan cowpers car.. what that has done...
holeshot now do a baffled wet sump ...just fitted one to mine what a lovely bit of kit is too...
anyone want any pics let me know
dave.c

ps. off to work now so i will reply to any later...

[Edited on 2/12/04 by bikerush]

Being probably the only BEC locost builder in Malta I woudl like to also sound my opinion.

Someone her already stated it: if it can be doen with a FireBlade it can be doen with all the others and I agree 100%. the only advamtage of a FireBlade if that due to its popularity there are a lot of stuff ready available possibly more than teh others. However Busas and R1's are getting also popular! Parts are also available as well.

I am building a Fireblade locost, but if I had to do it agian I would go for an R1. As a package of power/weight and price I think its the winner. Then the Zx9/12 and Busas all come close second. for a pure racer I woudl opt fro the Busa probably you will opt fro it afetr anyway!!!

I went for an R1 (2003FI) simply because the r1 has a bit more power and the output shaft is nearer to the engine than the blade. I wanted to use a blade engine as I have one already (929FI) in a blade and it's a cracker but the R1 seemed more suitable. I didn't consider a modern kawasaki engine as I had a zx6r from new for only 5000 miles and the cam chain tensioner died and the gearbox lunched itself. I realise it's not the same thing as a 9r but you can't beat honda and yamahas build quality ime.

Mark

[Edited on 2/12/04 by dern]

yup thats the blade engine going into mine just now. nice to hear a good report!

quote:

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Originally posted by scotlad
yup thats the blade engine going into mine just now. nice to hear a good report!

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quote:

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Originally posted by zilspeed

quote:

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Originally posted by scotlad
yup thats the blade engine going into mine just now. nice to hear a good report!

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Have you broken the existing one then ?

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Cheers guys for all the iput etc. and time to type all that info - especially Alister667.

I guess I can narrow things down to the blade or R1 then.

Which is easiest and most straightforward to run and get working - bearing in mind that I intend to make some sort of paddle shift.

Don't worry about biased opinions either - that's what it's all about!

Pat...

I'm very pleased with my Blade...but, if I did it again I would go for an R1. The Busa is prefeable but just too pricey. The reason I would go for an R1 is simply power. You build a blade and you want more!.
The blades have the advantage though as being generally cheaper. If I trash mine I won't bother repairing it just replace it.

but dont forget year on year age wise from '99 to 03, blade engines have equal or more power and torque than R1 engines! (152 bhp blade, 150bhp R1)

www.bikez.com

[Edited on 2/12/04 by scotlad]

[Edited on 2/12/04 by scotlad]

Not that i'm biased or anything!!!!!!!

quote:

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Originally posted by scotlad
but dont forget year on year age wise from '99 to 03, blade engines have equal or more power and torque than R1 engines! (152 bhp blade, 150bhp R1)

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Fair enough but it irritates me the amount of 'blade bashing' that goes on in favour of R1s! i was only quoting the figures i found on bikez.com. yamaha probably exagerrated their figures too in that case!!

Right so blade or R1 - I'll buy whatever is able when funds appear. What am I looking for age wise and what do I need to make sure comes with it?
Pat...

Pat,

I'm assuming you're not intending venturing into paying £££ territory here.

For max power, I'd recommend ZX9 or R1. If you want "done it 1000 times before" then go blade.

The ZX9 is a stonking engine that was let down by a weak (for car use) gearbox in its early incarnations (weak selector forks IIRC). If you go for a ZX9R-E or later, this has been fixed and the gearbox is much stronger.

Availability of parts for fitting these engines into cars are (in order)
blade
R1
ZX9

However, Exhausts, prop adapters etc are available off-the-shelf for all of the above from some suppliers.

If you want a seriously cheap engine with oodles of power, don't discount the old CBR1000 - these can be had cheap as chips (<£500). Only issue is you need a seriously low (3.1 if poss) diff to get a decent top end.

If you're not in a hurry and want to see a multitude of BECs in action for touring, joing us at Le Mans next year (see Simon Neill on the BEC list). There's normally at least one of each. Currently I think there's a CBR1000, Speed Triple, ZX9 signed up. Normally also a couple of blades and R1s.

HTH

Stephen

Whether u go 4 blade or R1 (like me ) contact colibriman. Guys a legend! Got me a '98 R1 engine, 13k miles for £800 and its a beauty! Had it posted from scotland to Belfast in a couple of dayz. Well impressed.
http://www.colibriman.com/
And go to "Stock" page

[Edited on 3/12/04 by Crazy Jay]

quote:

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Originally posted by Crazy Jay
Whether u go 4 blade or R1 (like me ) contact colibriman. Guys a legend! Got me a '98 R1 engine, 13k miles for £800 and its a beauty! Had it posted from scotland to Belfast in a couple of dayz. Well impressed.
http://www.colibriman.com/
And go to "Stock" page

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quote:

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Originally posted by Avoneer
Right so blade or R1 - I'll buy whatever is able when funds appear. What am I looking for age wise and what do I need to make sure comes with it?
Pat...

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Oh yes, bring it on.. you want power, the noise and the bike engined fun, latest 955i Daytona engine is 140+ BHP standard trim :-)), fuel injection (full mapping software available for £200) 3 cyl engine makes fantastic noise and gets 122mph top speed if used with a 3.11 diff. Mid range torque is great. Pulls like a train from 30mph in 6th! Takes some getting used to.

Triumph,Triumph, Triumph!!!

quote:

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Originally posted by chaos999
Oh yes, bring it on.. you want power, the noise and the bike engined fun, latest 955i Daytona engine is 140+ BHP standard trim :-)), fuel injection (full mapping software available for £200) 3 cyl engine makes fantastic noise and gets 122mph top speed if used with a 3.11 diff. Mid range torque is great. Pulls like a train from 30mph in 6th! Takes some getting used to.

Triumph,Triumph, Triumph!!!

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T595 is old!

955i is completly different and revs out to 11,000 which I know is less than an R1 but so is a busa!

Simon

quote:

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Originally posted by chaos999
T595 is old!

955i is completly different and revs out to 11,000 which I know is less than an R1 but so is a busa!

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I used to have a CBR 1000 striker (Sylva Demo car), I managed 128 bhp from this and coupled with short diff managed to give blade powered projectiles and equal run for money. Also turned in good results on Sprints and low 13s run at Brighton 1/4 with dodgy fuelling.

Think the advantage was being able to stay in say 4th and literally power out without the need to change down, over a lap this has some advantage, lost out in straight line as the diff was a 3.62 and ran hoosier slicks which dropped gearing even more, top speed down to 103 and I was doing that and bouncing off limiter well before the end of 1/4 drag. Stonking engine and well cheap. Know all the jetting if anyone goes CBR1000, also it is a pre cat age engine so a lot easier to SVA :-))

The Triumph engine is again a sports tourer with oodles of torque low down (for a bike) and cos there are three cyls the torque is there (bigger capacity in each cyl) but revs a little less, hence me getting 122MPH top end.

Simon

So CBR1000 is more cheap and cheerful, but won't quite match a blade or R1 - but great if you are on a budget?
Cheers,
Pat...

I have a mate with a CBR1000 in an older MK book type chassis.
I'm damned if I can keep up with him! The big difference is that he can drive! Mind you I have an advantage up the straight bits.

Gimme another couple of years maybe

Right, seen as budget is the number one factor here - there are a few CBR1000 floating around for sub £300 - most have 30k mileage though.
Anyone know if this will do the job for a "starter" BEC?
Also, I take it you can use them straight out of the box without any mods - eg, the sump.
Cheers,
Pat...

quote:

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Originally posted by Avoneer
Right, seen as budget is the number one factor here - there are a few CBR1000 floating around for sub £300 - most have 30k mileage though.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Avoneer

Anyone know if this will do the job for a "starter" BEC?
Also, I take it you can use them straight out of the box without any mods - eg, the sump.

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quote:

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Originally posted by alister667
GSXR1100 - Phelspa is a big fan of these, older suzuki engines, oil cooled, I have heard they can develope problems when turned longditudinally, but I don't know / remember any more details. Very cheap however and could be a good budget option.

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Hi, I am SImon (Chaos999) or SAN of BEC List.

It was indeed a pioneering car for both BECs and Sylva. I would suggest that this engine is really overlooked! Bullet proof and powerful and most definately cheap.

It makes a great BEC and really was not left for dead. I ran in hillclimbs and sprints and was as quick and quicker than blade striker at the time and there was a trip back from LeMans a few years back following a ZX9r powered Fury a couple of inches off his rear for several miles, nothing in it and the fury was NOT standard.

THe original engine is still in there and it has done 3 round trips to LeMans and associated blatting around, hillclimbs and sprints, trackdays and 1/4 mile drags. Never had a failure and still on the first clutch.

So ignore the size and age and really look at what you want. You'll not be left standing and that is for sure!

Simon

So just to help me clarify things.

The CBR1000 is a good first time engine. What ancillaries would I need to make sure that I had, and would I need to modify any parts. Don't forget though, I know didly squat about bikes.

Cheers
Michael

Hi,

Well engine block etc..

Carbs, full wiring loom, clocks (although speedo is mechanical geared would be good and the ignition key if poss. You can use the warning light strip too. Exhaust system or at least the headers as a miniumum and silencer if poss. Also be good to get the airbox and more importantly the rubbers unless you are going trumpet socks / sausage (costa lot).

Also get the oil cooler, pipes and fittings, water thermo housing and fan / rad too if poss :-), you could use all the switchgear too off handlebars (striker did).

Have a check on clutch lines as these are hydraulic and mine originally leaked.

Don't worry on fuel pump although if avail take it, used a facet on mine.

Jetting on carbs, we know what works and can sort that for you to reproduce the power seen. Exhaust, www.powerspeed.co.uk and ask for Dave Paris (he's MD there) mention me (simon) and he'll sort the exhaust for you.

Props (bailey morris), flange plate/adapter there are loads for these (Mark Fisher say). Engine mounts etc.. sure that between us that could be done or buy kit of bits from Mark Fisher or Darren at GTS??)

Simon

quote:

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Originally posted by Bananaman
So just to help me clarify things.

The CBR1000 is a good first time engine. What ancillaries would I need to make sure that I had, and would I need to modify any parts. Don't forget though, I know didly squat about bikes.

Cheers
Michael

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Also, don't think of the CBR1000 as a first time engine!

This is a powerful unit, up over 120 bhp and RR'd by me at near 130bhp, but more importantly the torque figures are high (for bike) low in revs which makes drivability great!!

Ok it's old but bullet proof and it WILL easily keep up with more modern engined cars :-))

Simon

Many thanks for the reply. Would I be better off buying a complete bike and selling what's left?

Cheers
Michael

Can do,

Although breakers are a good source for bits.. I bought carbs (set) for £30 on CBR before. Rubbers for carbs were £30 each from Honda!!!!

Header pipes, must really. But you can make up all the rest if need be :-)

quote:

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Originally posted by Bananaman
So just to help me clarify things.

The CBR1000 is a good first time engine. What ancillaries would I need to make sure that I had, and would I need to modify any parts. Don't forget though, I know didly squat about bikes.

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When you say low in revs, just how low. I really want something that will go to aleast 9,000.

Cheers
Michael


[Edited on 14/12/04 by Bananaman]

yes it does go above 9k, thinks it was around 10250 ish

Simon

Thanks Simon

Lubbly Jubbly

Cheers
Michael