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Advice on Yamaha R1/Fazer engines

Toed64 - 26/12/16 at 10:23 AM

Hello all

My R1ot is fitted with an early, originally carbed, R1 engine. This would be fine, except that the last owner fitted GSXR throttle bodies and DTA management. This set-up is dreadful, no torque below 5000 rpm, it fluffs and stalls often and only produces just over 100bhp. The installation of the new ECU has involved much hacking of the Yamaha wiring and the production of a new crank trigger wheel for the ignition. It has a cheapy electronic dash and a variety of irritating electrical gremlins, including one that flattens the battery in 2 days and an intermittent charge fault too.

I considered taking it up to Northampton Motorsport to get it set up better, but they suggested that they couldn't get any more power than the OE carbed Yamaha set-up and that I also need to fit a full air box before I take it. The airbox would be a good thing because the induction noise is shattering. I also need to rethink the exhaust as it's far too noisy for most tracks.

Fine, but it seems to me that I might well be better getting another donor bike and reverting to OE spec. Consequently, I've been looking at damaged R1s and Fazers. Early carbed R1s with good mechanicals are rare now, so I was wondering if a later, injected one, or a Fazer motor, would fit my existing engine mounts. I've been told that the 2008/9-on 'big bang' motor is different, but that the previous models might well be ok. However, no one I have spoken to at Yamaha dealers and even breakers has been able to confirm.

I'm trying to make a decision about which direction to go. If I have to fabricate a new engine cradle to install an injected R1 motor, then I might as well buy a smashed zzr1400 and get the extra torque and 190bhp.

I'd be really grateful for any advice or recommendations.

Ugg10 - 26/12/16 at 10:37 AM

These guys may be worth a call as they have been dealing in kit car bike engine packages for as long as anyone has, they have a zx14 package on their site at the moment.

http://www.abperformance.co.uk

Toed64 - 26/12/16 at 10:48 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Ugg10
These guys may be worth a call as they have been dealing in kit car bike engine packages for as long as anyone has, they have a zx14 package on their site at the moment.

http://www.abperformance.co.uk

Excellent - thank you.

StevieB - 26/12/16 at 10:54 AM

You could do worse than go back to the R1 setup completely.

The only thing I did to mine was to use a jet and needle kit, plus fit a foam sir filter (though using an original bike aribox with a few mods and decent filter wouldn't be a bad shout.

With a decent exhaust (bike engines are much more sensitive to exhausts - look at the diameter, length and design).

The engine would put out about 140bhp in the bike fresh from the factory, so 100bhp is pretty poor really.

By the time you buy the right parts, and sell the TB's and ECU, it could be pretty cost neutral (or even profitable).

And as for the clocks - get yourself an original R1 look and a set of clocks straight off the bike. Only thing you'll need is a speedo healer to calibrate.

[Edited on 26/12/16 by StevieB]

mark chandler - 26/12/16 at 11:00 AM

Fitting injection to my carbed fireblade engine improved things, and that had a dynojet kit fitted before moving across as a precursor to turbo.

If correctly set up the injection will ultimately be better, you have something amiss.

[Edited on 26/12/16 by mark chandler]

Toed64 - 26/12/16 at 11:16 AM

quote:
Originally posted by StevieB
You could do worse than go back to the R1 setup completely.

The only thing I did to mine was to use a jet and needle kit, plus fit a foam sir filter (though using an original bike airbox with a few mods and decent filter wouldn't be a bad shout.

With a decent exhaust (bike engines are much more sensitive to exhausts - look at the diameter, length and design).

The engine would put out about 140bhp in the bike fresh from the factory, so 100bhp is pretty poor really.

By the time you buy the right parts, and sell the TB's and ECU, it could be pretty cost neutral (or even profitable).

And as for the clocks - get yourself an original R1 look and a set of clocks straight off the bike. Only thing you'll need is a speedo healer to calibrate.

[Edited on 26/12/16 by StevieB]

This is what I was thinking, because I didn't build this car and didn't do all of the modding to get it through IVA, I'm starting to pull my hair out to get it sorted out. I think the last owner ran out of patience with it too...

I have concluded that to get all the parts I need, I might do well do buy a complete bike. That way I can ditch the hacked Yamaha loom too.

The R1 motor is nice and light and with 140ish BHP it should be quite lively, but the way it is at present, the car is slower than my 1.6 Exocet was and that weighed 220kg more!

CosKev3 - 26/12/16 at 11:20 AM

The only injected R1 engine that will fit straight in is the early 2003-4 5PW which runs a strange type of injection that looks ike carbs and uses the constant velocity type sliders still like the carbs.

Once you go to a proper injection engine,5VY onwards,the engines are totally different and will need new mounts/cradle etc

Toed64 - 26/12/16 at 11:33 AM

quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
Fitting injection to my carbed fireblade engine improved things, and that had a dynojet kit fitted before moving across as a precursor to turbo.

If correctly set up the injection will ultimately be better, you have something amiss.

That's what the last owner thought too. He fitted the DTA system and a cat to get it through IVA, but never managed to get the emissions very clean and subsequently built another exhaust without cat to try to get the power up. He was not successful and yet he spent thousands on it with a race and rally car builder (of repute) who should have known what he was doing.

The mapping is not good. I'm not sure why he opted for GSXR750 TBs. They are similar sized to the 1000, but I wonder if the injectors are smaller. I have not yet checked. I've heard mixed feedback about DTA systems, but mapping NA motors is new to me. I think it must be a finer art than turbo mapping - you can't just force a little more fuel and air in.

Toed64 - 26/12/16 at 11:35 AM

quote:
Originally posted by CosKev3
The only injected R1 engine that will fit straight in is the early 2003-4 5PW which runs a strange type of injection that looks like carbs and uses the constant velocity type sliders still like the carbs.

Once you go to a proper injection engine,5VY onwards,the engines are totally different and will need new mounts/cradle etc

Thanks - that's very helpful.

CosKev3 - 26/12/16 at 11:43 AM

How have they fitted the TB's to the head?

As the Carbed 20 valve head on the R1 has different spacings between the inlet ports?

StevieB - 26/12/16 at 12:52 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Toed64

I have concluded that to get all the parts I need, I might do well do buy a complete bike. That way I can ditch the hacked Yamaha loom too.

Shouldn't need to go to that extent really, especially since the early carb'd R1 models are becoming sought after as they were a game changing bike (a bit like the Fireblade was, so prices for even doggy examples are strong).

All you should need are the correct clocks, full loom and carbs from the sound of it.

IMHO - Breaking a bike always seems a cost efficient option but when you've got cash tied up in the bike it can feel like an awfully long time to shift the parts. And with an R1 you'll find that the bike is either expensive to buy in the first place, or all the parts where the second hand value is (forks, front wheel, bodywork -anything that gets bent, broken or ruined in a crash) are already knackered and not worth much.

Toed64 - 26/12/16 at 12:52 PM

quote:
Originally posted by CosKev3
How have they fitted the TB's to the head?

As the Carbed 20 valve head on the R1 has different spacings between the inlet ports?

It looks like a perfect fit on standard-looking inlet manifold rubbers.

Toed64 - 26/12/16 at 12:59 PM

quote:
Originally posted by StevieB

quote:
Originally posted by Toed64

I have concluded that to get all the parts I need, I might do well do buy a complete bike. That way I can ditch the hacked Yamaha loom too.

Shouldn't need to go to that extent really, especially since the early carb'd R1 models are becoming sought after as they were a game changing bike (a bit like the Fireblade was, so prices for even doggy examples are strong).

All you should need are the correct clocks, full loom and carbs from the sound of it.

IMHO - Breaking a bike always seems a cost efficient option but when you've got cash tied up in the bike it can feel like an awfully long time to shift the parts. And with an R1 you'll find that the bike is either expensive to buy in the first place, or all the parts where the second hand value is (forks, front wheel, bodywork -anything that gets bent, broken or ruined in a crash) are already knackered and not worth much.

Good points... There was a carbed R1 with a u/s engine on eBay a week or two ago. I considered it, but even that went for silly money.

mark chandler - 26/12/16 at 02:58 PM

Do not know about DTA, mine runs on megasquirt v1 so really old, the turbo map throws more fuel in and I had it using MAP only and it made great tractable power, Dale recommended moving to MAF which give you much better light throttle response it can hold its AFR very accurately on this.

I would look at making sure it's connected correctly and mapped by someone who absolutely knows what they are doing.

[Edited on 26/12/16 by mark chandler]

CosKev3 - 26/12/16 at 03:08 PM

quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
Do not know about DTA, mine runs on megasquirt v1 so really old, the turbo map throws more fuel in and I had it using MAP only and it made great tractable power, Dale recommended moving to MAF which give you much better light throttle response it can hold its AFR very accurately on this.

I would look at making sure it's connected correctly and mapped by someone who absolutely knows what they are doing.

[Edited on 26/12/16 by mark chandler]

Oh that's interesting, I'm currently converting my R1 to a turbo and will be using Dale and Megasquirt.
will ask him if it's beneficial going to a MAF as I was just going to go TPS and MAP.

CosKev3 - 26/12/16 at 03:09 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Toed64

quote:
Originally posted by CosKev3
How have they fitted the TB's to the head?

As the Carbed 20 valve head on the R1 has different spacings between the inlet ports?

It looks like a perfect fit on standard-looking inlet manifold rubbers.

Got any pics handy?

Does it look like that have respaced the TB's to match the R1 head?

Toed64 - 26/12/16 at 05:02 PM

quote:
Originally posted by CosKev3

As the Carbed 20 valve head on the R1 has different spacings between the inlet ports?

It looks like a perfect fit on standard-looking inlet manifold rubbers.

Got any pics handy?

Does it look like that have respaced the TB's to match the R1 head?

Crumby video clip:

[IMG]http://i1347.photobucket.com/albums/p711/Toed64/th_ R1ot%20throttle%20bodies_zpslcxumqjh.mp4[/IMG]

CosKev3 - 26/12/16 at 05:29 PM

Can't really see on that.

Really can't see why it's lacking in performance so much.

What fuel regulater and pump is it running?

mark chandler - 26/12/16 at 05:41 PM

quote:
Originally posted by CosKev3

quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
Do not know about DTA, mine runs on megasquirt v1 so really old, the turbo map throws more fuel in and I had it using MAP only and it made great tractable power, Dale recommended moving to MAF which give you much better light throttle response it can hold its AFR very accurately on this.

I would look at making sure it's connected correctly and mapped by someone who absolutely knows what they are doing.

[Edited on 26/12/16 by mark chandler]

Oh that's interesting, I'm currently converting my R1 to a turbo and will be using Dale and Megasquirt.
will ask him if it's beneficial going to a MAF as I was just going to go TPS and MAP.

Dale ran it up, my complaint was removing hesitation when you booted it's as it was killing my sprint times and quickly determined that it needed a MAF sensor, wired one in and everything improved, unfortunately the bearings in my turbo collapsed so I have to return.

Wire one in before you go.

[Edited on 26/12/16 by mark chandler]

CosKev3 - 26/12/16 at 05:44 PM

quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler

quote:
Originally posted by CosKev3

quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
Do not know about DTA, mine runs on megasquirt v1 so really old, the turbo map throws more fuel in and I had it using MAP only and it made great tractable power, Dale recommended moving to MAF which give you much better light throttle response it can hold its AFR very accurately on this.

I would look at making sure it's connected correctly and mapped by someone who absolutely knows what they are doing.

[Edited on 26/12/16 by mark chandler]

Oh that's interesting, I'm currently converting my R1 to a turbo and will be using Dale and Megasquirt.
will ask him if it's beneficial going to a MAF as I was just going to go TPS and MAP.

Dale ran it up, my complaint was removing hesitation when you booted it's as it was killing my sprint times and quickly determined that it needed a MAF sensor, wired one in and everything improved, unfortunately the bearings in my turbo collapsed so I have to return.

Wire one in before you go.

[Edited on 26/12/16 by mark chandler]

I've asked Dale and he said if I'm going MS2 it's not required, as you then run hybrid TPS and MAP which you can't do on MS1

Toed64 - 27/12/16 at 12:20 AM

quote:
Originally posted by CosKev3
Can't really see on that.

Really can't see why it's lacking in performance so much.

What fuel regulator and pump is it running?

I'm not sure - I know it has a swirl pot... I'll look tomorrow.

Thank you all for your advice and help.

Ugg10 - 27/12/16 at 09:38 AM

Could still be running the carb pump???

With a swirl pot it should have a low pressure pump (old carb one?) from the tank to the pot and then a high pressure one (injection one) from the pot to the engine fuel rail. Worth checking the pressure at the fuel rail once primed.

[Edited on 27/12/16 by Ugg10]

Toed64 - 10/1/17 at 12:29 AM

Thank you for all the advice and suggestions. I've been busy hunting down a smashed R1. Watching the prices, I wish I had a CAT B licence!

I decided that going back to standard would be the least exasperating way of getting my car to run as it should. I can't be bothered to try to deal with all of the problems that others have not been able to resolve before me and I am not prepared to commit to huge labour bills at specialists to do it for me. It may be an expensive choice - I'll see!

motorcycle_mayhem - 10/1/17 at 10:43 AM

The old carb'd R1's are pretty dreadful compared with the R1-5VY, which is what you want.
The carb'd engines are mounted at the rear and front, the later (5VY) units use the 'modern' rear and head/upper case suspension, commensurate with the development of alloy m/cycle one piece frames. You'll have to fabricate mountings and frames, not terribly difficult.

The Riot isn't blessed with the longest engine bay in the world, which is why the R1 units fit so nicely. A trend setter in 'stacked' gearboxes (makes the engine short). A conventional set-up (less common now on modern engines) will require some engine bay extending, with some issues relating to driveshaft angles on the rear pickup diagonal... again not to difficult, it's a simple car to cut and weld.

CosKev3 - 10/1/17 at 10:49 AM

quote:
Originally posted by motorcycle_mayhem
The old carb'd R1's are pretty dreadful compared with the R1-5VY, which is what you want.
The carb'd engines are mounted at the rear and front, the later (5VY) units use the 'modern' rear and head/upper case suspension, commensurate with the development of alloy m/cycle one piece frames. You'll have to fabricate mountings and frames, not terribly difficult.

The Riot isn't blessed with the longest engine bay in the world, which is why the R1 units fit so nicely. A trend setter in 'stacked' gearboxes (makes the engine short). A conventional set-up (less common now on modern engines) will require some engine bay extending, with some issues relating to driveshaft angles on the rear pickup diagonal... again not to difficult, it's a simple car to cut and weld.

Dreadful in what way?

Toed64 - 10/1/17 at 11:42 AM

quote:
Originally posted by motorcycle_mayhem
The old carb'd R1's are pretty dreadful compared with the R1-5VY, which is what you want.
The carb'd engines are mounted at the rear and front, the later (5VY) units use the 'modern' rear and head/upper case suspension, commensurate with the development of alloy m/cycle one piece frames. You'll have to fabricate mountings and frames, not terribly difficult.

The Riot isn't blessed with the longest engine bay in the world, which is why the R1 units fit so nicely. A trend setter in 'stacked' gearboxes (makes the engine short). A conventional set-up (less common now on modern engines) will require some engine bay extending, with some issues relating to driveshaft angles on the rear pickup diagonal... again not to difficult, it's a simple car to cut and weld.

Interesting, thanks.

As above, why is the early motor so much inferior to the injection motor?

The R1 seems to command a premium over many of the other bikes. If fabrication is needed to fit a later motor, I'd have to be convinced it's worth the extra hassle.

Phil_1471 - 10/1/17 at 05:52 PM

My R1 riot is pretty nippy, nothing particularly "dreadful" about it.... IMO

The Knobs - 10/1/17 at 06:20 PM

What options are there for quieter air boxes on the R1 instead of a foam filter, without of course losing any power?

CosKev3 - 10/1/17 at 06:30 PM

quote:
Originally posted by The Knobs
What options are there for quieter air boxes on the R1 instead of a foam filter, without of course losing any power?

You don't like the noise or have you failed noise testing or summat?

I love the sound of mine on a foam filter

Air box will all depend on the bonnet clearance,you shouldn't lose too much power as long as the box is big enough and got a nice feed of air into it

Toed64 - 10/1/17 at 06:34 PM

quote:
Originally posted by The Knobs
What options are there for quieter air boxes on the R1 instead of a foam filter, without of course losing any power?

I talked to Northampton Motorsport about this - they are au-fait with the management system fitted to my Riot. They suggested that I refit an airbox, rather than keep the foam filter on the Suzuki GSXR TBs fitted to my R1 motor, saying that in their experience mapping for optimum power output would not achieve factory figures without an airbox.

I propose to go back to an OE airbox with a cold feed.

The Knobs - 10/1/17 at 06:43 PM

quote:
Originally posted by CosKev3

quote:
Originally posted by The Knobs
What options are there for quieter air boxes on the R1 instead of a foam filter, without of course losing any power?

You don't like the noise or have you failed noise testing or summat?

I love the sound of mine on a foam filter

Air box will all depend on the bonnet clearance,you shouldn't lose too much power as long as the box is big enough and got a nice feed of air into it

I am planning on a number of trackdays this year and don't want to take the chance of being booted. Haven't had it tested as yet but exhaust sounds quiet enough but induction may well be the black flag excuse.

Maybe I will take it to my local airfield at Blyton and see how it goes.

Toed64 - 30/1/17 at 07:30 PM

quote:
Originally posted by motorcycle_mayhem
The carb'd engines are mounted at the rear and front, the later (5VY) units use the 'modern' rear and head/upper case suspension, commensurate with the development of alloy m/cycle one piece frames. You'll have to fabricate mountings and frames, not terribly difficult.

Hello again,

I don't really relish the idea of chopping and fabricating new mounts if I can slot in another engine to the existing mounts. Whilst I know that you recommended the later engine, I've come across a complete but damaged, very low mileage, 2003 carbed Fazer 1000, for the sort of money that doesn't make me wince too much. It should be physically the same as my 2000 R1 motor, shouldn't it?

I know that the Fazer was turned down a bit, but I'm tempted anyway...

Will it fit?

Any advice would be very welcome.

daniel mason - 30/1/17 at 09:40 PM

There's a guy in Scotland selling a Jedi gsxr1000 and he has the spare carbed r1 motor which was removed. It'll be cheap!

Toed64 - 31/1/17 at 12:34 AM

quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
There's a guy in Scotland selling a Jedi gsxr1000 and he has the spare carbed r1 motor which was removed. It'll be cheap!

Thank you - that's interesting. Where is it advertised?

I was hoping to buy a running bike so that I have all of the parts that have been modified on mine, but I assume that the gent selling his R1 motor must have had the engine loom and ecu too.

daniel mason - 31/1/17 at 07:07 AM

It's on uphillracers.im assuming he has everything to make it run

Toed64 - 14/7/17 at 10:53 AM

Hello again...

I thought I'd update after you all offered so much helpful advice and insight.

I didn't manage to either source a selection of bits to revert to carbs, or a whole damaged R1 with good enough components to make a worthwhile donor. The mechanical bits seemed to be in good fettle and the GSXR throttle bodies are reputed to be good, so I thought that it ought to be possible to make it all work as intended.

The wiring loom was a dreadful mess and I didn't really know where to start, so I thought that a race/rally control systems expert might. I took the car to Richard at Zen Performance in Erith. Whoever did the control system splice should probably not be allowed to play with sharp scissors!

Richard discovered that the immobiliser that had been installed for IVA had been used to switch power to the fuel pumps. The relay was not up to the job and had scorched, leaving some circuits live: one of the battery drains.

There was insufficient power to run the hpfp efficiently, particularly at high revs. This was likely to be the principle cause of power loss. I asked Richard to strip out all of the interesting wiring and start again. Now all circuits are appropriately switched, fused and relayed from a buzz bar and there are no longer 6 wires to the +ve terminal of the battery!

I bought a GSXR air box/filter for it and Richard's colleague is modifying the shatteringly noisy exhaust to mate up to Jeremy's original re-packable silencer that mounts across to the back chassis rail.

Once that's all on, it's going back on the rollers to be remapped. I'm really excited! I'm also slightly disappointed that I had to farm out the work!

I should have it back in a week or two.