Folks,
Myself and a couple of friends have been left in the envious position of having a 'spare' CBR1000 Locost (based on an original MK book chassis).
Anyhow we also have a spare CBR1000 engine for it sitting in the garage, so we reckon a little 'experimenting' might be in order.
We're thinking of fitting a turbo.
I've got Joe Haile's book 'Motorcycle Turbocharging' and good it seems too (I have to read the thing now as opposed to just looking at the pics!).
Basically I wanted to know do you have any ideas what type of turbo unit we should be looking at?
We're planning on running a modest boost so we don't have to change the internals, maybe just fit another head gasket to reduce the compression ratio a touch.
Price is the main consideration, so brand new is out! I did a little trawl around ebay and found a Garrett GT15 going for 40 odd quid (couple of days left). This came from a diesel. I assume it is based on the Garrett G15. Might be the same even. Any ideas?
Is there any reason a turbo from a diesel would be unsuitable?
Those old Saab (petrol) Turbos, would they be worth looking at? Would they be too big for a CBR1000?
The MG Metro Turbo / Escort Cosworth uses a Garrett T2 (I think) are there other cars we should be looking at scavanging from?
There was a thread about garage19 doing turbo kits for blades on here but I never heard anything more about this. He was mentioning a Garrett T25 - what road car would be a good source of these, or should I just sniff rounf ebay a lot?
We're still in the planning stage so any ideas/thoughts are greatly appreciated.
I had a read of the Westfield Turboblade page but (nice job though it is) it was got from Holeshot for in around £3200. I'm thinking 10% of that.....
Hey, it is Locostbuilders.co.uk after all!
Many thanks
Ali Jackson

I personally think that the turbo off a diesel would be a good place to start as they are low pressure so not as liklely to kill the engine.

I'm not a mechanic though so someone please prove me right or wrong.

Woah there on the Diseasel Turbo....

Combustion temp for diesel oil is much lower than that of petrol.

Will check it with a mate who works for Holset Turbos, but I seem to remeber that you'll melt the turbine blades.

http://www.mc-xpress.com

These guys (above linky) use a mistubishi turbo for 1000cc bike engines... and I think they have a UK-based importer for kits and parts.

This is them:
Holeshot Racing
Appelby House
Walker Terrace
Wakefield Road
BRADFORD, BD4 7HP
UNITED KINGDOM
Phone: + 44 1274 722200
Fax: +44 1274 732277

Maybe they'll be able to help point you in the right direction... let us all know the result.... I might get one set up if my project ever becomes road-legal!!

There's a Lad from Luleau in the "three wheeler" section on this site.... he has a GSXR turbo engine in his T42 trike (mad bit of machinery).... he might be able to help too

Regards,

N

I asked Garage19 about his kit when that thread was posted, he said the turbo to have is the garrett T105 from the ford Diesel......

Colin

crud... just read that it was holeshot who supplied the original kit.

but you don't need to buy it all ...

I'd suggest looking for a 1.6 to 2ltr turbo unit.... bigger engine than the cbr1000, but turning at half the speed of a bike engine.. therefor producing the same amount of exhaust gasses as a fully functioning bike engine.

go for a built in waste-gate too. I'd recon the T2 might be a wee bit too small... but it's only a logic-based-guess.

I'm just rambling now.. it's late.

N

LMAO

Thanks Colin.

*that hissing noise is me being deflated*

haha... Nick..your right it is late....

I know nothing, but am all ears as far as this subject goes....

Doug (Garage19) said that he had tried a T2 (or maybe a T25) but it was too big so wasn't creating enough boost..apparently it was only 5bhp or so more...

The advice on the T105 came from a guy at Garrett....
I think we could do with Doug coming along to help and put right the rambling here....

Oh DOOOOOUUUUUGGGGGG.....! You there?

[Edited on 6/2/05 by colibriman]

Well.. hmm interesting. Glad i pointed out that I was only GUESSING regarding size.... I will have to talk to Kay when I get to work on monday. She deals with Diesel turbos day in and day out.... She might know something about Garret units and sizing...

I have an old metro turbo unit lying around in the UK... but I think the bearing's a tad fudged. It was going to go on my buggy, but I never got round to it.

Anyhoo... I can say that the guy who told me not to use the diesel turbo claimed to have worked for Garret....

Right.. I have to be in the sauna in 7 hours.... better go to Bed.

Nighty Night.

I also seem to remember looking at a website in America that also suggested trying either a diahatsu GTTI turbo unit (KKK I think) or the mitsubishi turbo unit was mentioned too...

It's not a cbr 1000 and it's not cheap but he might be able to give you some pointers.
ebay link

The aerodyne turbo mentioned in the ebay linky, was (I think) the one used by MR Turbo in the USA...but their kits were crazy money too..

any way...I'm off to my kip now too.....

How about a Subaru Impreza turbo. These pop up regularly on Scoobynet where people have upgraded. A TD04 of a new style WRX (not STi) should be about right.

Adam

OK thanks for that, it looks like a wee trip to the scrappies looking for a Garrett T105 from a Ford Diesel.
Any idea which engines they came with at all? I've searched google for info and found very little.
The Subaru ones might be a bit pricey, but I'll bear it in mind.
Thanks again
Ali

I think they go for about £200

Oh I like the idea of this!

I've been thinking of something similar myself since I've gotta make an exhaust anyway - it may aswell be a turbo manifold!

I was thinking along the lines of a KKK turbo off either an Uno turbo Mk1 or Mk2 - only 1300cc or 1400cc depending on which age your car is and theres usually some around.

I know the Mr turbo systems use a fuel injection conversion but does anyone know whether this replaces the carbs or is a supplemental fuel injector as run on the cossie 4 pots and stuff?

Not sure I fancy carbs and turboing!

I know the Mr turbo systems use a fuel injection conversion but does anyone know whether this replaces the carbs or is a supplemental fuel injector as run on the cossie 4 pots and stuff?

Jambo,
I've got a magazine with an article on it, It says it uses a fuel injection system by a company called Martronic from California.

Another interesting thing it said was that he used shotblasted clutch steels (along with upgraded springs).

hmm, sounds like a proper job. If you've got the article to hand - any chance of a copy? I'll sling you 10p for photocopying !

I guess if I was going to go down this route Id look at chucking the carbs and fittnig throttle bodies / plenum with the megasquirt system and megaspark driving the ignition.

Be interesting to hear of anyone thats gone down this route though? So many questions!!!

For one - wont the majority of the turbo housing be outside the car body panels? Sounds a bit vulnerable to me?!

no worries....email or U2U me your address and I'll send you a copy...
if I can get my scanner working I'll do it that way.....

wont the majority of the turbo housing be outside the car body panels? Sounds a bit vulnerable to me?!

naaaaa...not if your good with your welding.....


out of the engine and go down to the turbo...loadsa free space there just now...

You've got U2U!

Yeah I guess the turb can go wherever - I'd quite like poking menacingly out of the dashboard with something anodised and knurled avaialble for on-the-fly tweaking.....mmmm!

Be interesting to see where Mr Turbo puts his!

I said I'd mail her, and I forgot, so I just rang her...

Kay (a very good friend from University) has been working for Holset Turbos in Yorkshire for a few years. She's a Rapid Problem Solver within the company (goes and finds out what went wrong with installed turbos) and has spent a couple of years speccing and tuning Be-spoke turbos for high-performance diseasel applications.

In short.... she knows Everything there is to know about turbos, but specialises in Diseasel ones.

To clear up a myth, and in the hope of saving some dissapointment for someone, I asked about using a diesel-turbo in a petrol application... I explained the background (Cheap BEC-Turbo options etc)

This is what she had to say.

She Laughed, and simply said... No. Don't waste your time on it: use one from a petrol car.

Why?

Average temperature of exhaust gasses in a diesel: 600°C
High performance diesels run at 760°C and generally that's as high as they go.

Avergage Temp of Petrols: 900°C
She pointed out that the design to diesel turbos is essentially the same, but the compression ratio differs, as do the Materials used by all manufacturers.
ONLY the High-end diesel-Turbos can withstand the 760°C exhaust temps: More standard diesel turbos are only expected to survive 650.

"Running a Turbo designed for diesels on a Petrol engine would Kill the Turbo"

Maybe the T105 is originally a petrol turbo.... If so, it should stoll funtion adequately on a diesel... But MAKE sure it'll withstand Petrol temps BEFORE you drop a couple of hundred quid on one.

She basically confirmed what I'd been told before by an ex-garret guy.... I didn't trust him so wasn't prepared to go further than merely repeating what he'd said.

I trust Kay implicitly, and after hearing her explanations, I'd advise against using anything that originated from a diesel engined car.

Your call.

N

Hmmmmm....very interesting.....don't suppose you could try an get a list off Kay of models of turbo to look for?

LOL....

Could ask her for brochures i guess... I'll mail her tomorrow to see if she can find out about the T105.... but to be honest She deals with bigger things... Trucks mainly. There was a Dodge Truck taht smashed the diesel land-speed record on the Utah salt flats....
http://www.bankspower.com/im_tt_july03.cfm
She was on the team doing all the calcs for that I seem to remember....
I'll ask, but might draw a blank.

OK then I'll hold off on the T105!
Thanks for the info
Cheers
Ali

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/kits/kit_Suzuki_Hayabusa.htm

The official Garret kit for the Hay-Bus..... uses same turbo as the 1.8ltr VW turbo kit that they prodce (same size anyway.. the bearings seem to be different)

Might go some way towards sizing. suggestions.

I can't seem to find anything about a T-105.... will keep looking.

Edit... and have just mailed a Garret dealer to find out about the GT15 and GT12.

[Edited on 8/2/05 by nick baker]

quote:

---

Originally posted by colibriman
haha... Nick..your right it is late....

I know nothing, but am all ears as far as this subject goes....

Doug (Garage19) said that he had tried a T2 (or maybe a T25) but it was too big so wasn't creating enough boost..apparently it was only 5bhp or so more...

The advice on the T105 came from a guy at Garrett....
I think we could do with Doug coming along to help and put right the rambling here....

Oh DOOOOOUUUUUGGGGGG.....! You there?

[Edited on 6/2/05 by colibriman]

---

Thanks Garage19, that's Great info!!!

As I promised earlier I chased up a garret bloke, and here's the question i asked and the reply.

THE QUESTION:
I've been informed that diesel turbos should not be used on petrol engines due to turbine design/temperature issues... (900°C Exhaust Vs 650°C exhaust) This info was passed om to me Via a friend at Holset who specialises in diesel turbo applications.

However.... The GT15 (used on diesel cars) seems to be featuring a lot in Bike-engined Turbo conversions.... will they withstand the temperatures involved, or are people just being lucky?

ANSWER from Garret Techical (via Gary, a Garret Distributor)

Generally speaking the first sentence is correct. We have five or six different turbine housing materials that we will use according to the turbine inlet conditions of each individual application. Also, two different turbine wheels. In addition, we can use heat shrouds where necessary on specific applications, which means the housings have to machined to suit. Each turbo is bespoke to its application. Some of the high output diesels are now getting up towards petrol type temperatures, but these are all VNTs now anyway, most of which use Inconel, D5-Niresist and stainless steels in their construction.

I know that some people are using GT15 and derivatives for retro-fitting, but unless they are using one which is specifically for a petrol engine, they must be prepared for turbine housings cracking and a short life for the turbo. The standard thrust bearings on most of the standard GT15s will not stand high boost pressures, although for most bikes (which are pretty powerful anyway) they probably don't need a lot!

Right... hope that helps. I'll look up this thread if I ever get around to doing it myself!!!

Lads this is brilliant - many thanks again for all your input.
You have, no doubt, saved me a lot of time and trouble.
All the best once again,
Ali

No problems.

Some other tips are:

Use 2 genuine honda headgaskets to lower the CR.

If you are running carbs you will need a different fuel pump and a pressure sensing fuel regulator (for carbs, origanaly from esprit and mg turbo) made by malapassi/FSE. These are available from Burton power, demon tweeks etc

Make sure you have a pressure feed to the float bowls or you will get no fuel when it comes on boost!!

If you have pressurised the carbs correctly, then the jetting you will need won't be far from stock.

An intercooler is a good idea. Chop up one from a small turbo car and make you own head tanks.

Dump valves sound cool on a bike!!!

Before running any boost stick it on a dyno and see which way the AFR is heading as you climb up the rpm.

Alternitavely buy a wide band lambda kit and make tuning much easier!

Running injection makes tuning much easier.

If you run injection you don't need to have four throttle bodies. You can make a plenum up with just one throttle body like a car. I have seen 450 bhp ZZRs with this set up and megasquirt.

Turbo bikes engines are great. Mine had no lag and the bike would take off from a top gear roll on like you were in second!

Great stuff Doug - thanks for your invaluable advice.
still think your the man for making us all a kit.....

Go on, Go on, Go on.........(said with a dodgy Irish accent - a la Mrs Doyle)

Nick - well done for coming up with that from Garrett.....saves us all guessing and messing up.....

You got back OK then Colin, cant have been too bad a drive back from mine then if you're already back home posting by 2am

Chris

Doug,
Do you think an Uno Turbo would be suitable for a 919cc Blade as well, or would you recommend the Garrett T105 for this?
The reason I ask is that the 3 of us who are intending to modify the CBR1000 all have road going blade cars too......


Thanks again

Ali

Hi Chris,

Was mostly a good run - got home bout 1.40....weather turned rubbish from Birmingham though...

got stuck behind a wide load (with a police escort) doing 25 mph for the last 9 miles.....man that was frustrating...!

enjoy your modding and thanks for your business !


(Sorry for the sidetracking hijack Ali and all)

cheers
Colin

[Edited on 10/2/05 by colibriman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by alister667
Doug,
Do you think an Uno Turbo would be suitable for a 919cc Blade as well, or would you recommend the Garrett T105 for this?
The reason I ask is that the 3 of us who are intending to modify the CBR1000 all have road going blade cars too......


Thanks again

Ali

---

Use 2 genuine honda headgaskets to lower the CR


wouldn't it be better to fit an extra base gasket to lift the barrels and keep the head gasket single so the extra 'pressure' from the turbo doesn't blow it. cheers drp