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Winter upgrade - which engine?
Jubal - 5/9/06 at 09:22 PM

My Indy has a 919 blade engine but I fancy going a bit faster next season. From searching on here it looks like there's no simple engine upgrade and it might be better to sell the car and buy one with more beef but the market seems pretty pants for blade cars. Mine is slightly tatty too but it handles like a dream and I think I'd rather keep a good 'un, plus I'm ready for the experience as long as I don't bite off more than I can chew.

Any thoughts on what the simplest upgrade path would be that's actually worth the effort?

Hellfire - 5/9/06 at 09:23 PM

Depends how deep your pockets are but I'd go Turbo........

Phil

StevieB - 5/9/06 at 09:31 PM

Be different to everyone and put an Aprilia Mille in?

Not sure if it'd be any faster, but it would certainly be fairly unique.

(it might cost a fortubne and be totally useless, but then at least the rest of will know not to bother)

Coose - 5/9/06 at 09:32 PM

Pants to smelly turbos, supercharger all the way!

StevieB - 5/9/06 at 09:34 PM

Might as well get economies of scale and buy an iso full of engines - it'll make it cheaper in the long run when they blow up!

(don't 919 engines have a tendancy to throw conrods out?)

Coose - 5/9/06 at 09:35 PM

quote:
Originally posted by StevieB
Might as well get economies of scale and buy an iso full of engines - it'll make it cheaper in the long run when they blow up!

(don't 919 engines have a tendancy to throw conrods out?)


Ah now, that's a sore point with some people.....
I still think it may be down to the fact that the oil was never changed since he built the car....

givemethebighammer - 5/9/06 at 09:37 PM

How far away dimension wise is a blackbird engine. I thought they were basically a blade engine with a longer stroke and a different head ?

I might be wrong though.

StevieB - 5/9/06 at 09:42 PM

I think the blackbird engine needs to be dry sumped.

Plus, I was chatting to one of the guys from MK at Newark and he said they had no end of problems with their blackbird demo car - they've now got a GSXR1000 engined car, which they seem to like an awful lot.

Jon Ison - 5/9/06 at 09:43 PM

If it was me, its not, but if it was, ZX12, R1 in that order.

Jubal - 5/9/06 at 09:48 PM

One of the lads at work thinks a supercharger is the way to go too. But I will be the first to admit I don't have the skills to tread a new path.

StevieB - 5/9/06 at 09:50 PM

quote:


Ah now, that's a sore point with some people.....
I still think it may be down to the fact that the oil was never changed since he built the car....


Not like Mark to bodge things last minute or forget something so important - totally out of character!

caber - 5/9/06 at 09:50 PM

RV8 out of a crashed TVR! There is no replacement for displacement! also V8 sound much better than a screeching bike!

Caber

Jubal - 5/9/06 at 09:51 PM

Is that choice based upon ease of install?

JoelP - 5/9/06 at 09:55 PM

new zx10 would be my primary choice, obviously nearly new and much lighter than zx12 etc.

Jubal - 5/9/06 at 09:56 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Jon Ison
If it was me, its not, but if it was, ZX12, R1 in that order.


Again, which do you think is easier to install? R1 been done more too.

Jubal - 5/9/06 at 09:57 PM

quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
new zx10 would be my primary choice, obviously nearly new and much lighter than zx12 etc.


Mr yorkshire engines always pushes these too. I'm tempted. Has anyone got a cradle off the shelf for it yet?

Jon Ison - 5/9/06 at 10:02 PM

Too do either you would need........

New cradle.
Exhaust manifold.
Prob prop shaft alterations.
Electrical work for engine loom.
Upgrade fuel pump if yours isn't injection.

Cost offset by selling your engine package, advertise it whilst still in car, potential buyers can here see, test it running, gives more confidence too buyer, reflects in the price they will pay.

Either option as plenty off guys on here who have experience of both, not difficult too fit either, honest.

Hellfire - 5/9/06 at 10:09 PM

quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
new zx10 would be my primary choice, obviously nearly new and much lighter than zx12 etc.


Best price I've seen for a ZX10 though is the thick end of £2,000. Apparently very good engines - love to see one go into a seven

Phil

Jubal - 5/9/06 at 10:19 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire

Best price I've seen for a ZX10 though is the thick end of £2,000. Apparently very good engines - love to see one go into a seven

Phil


That price is good compared with the turbo option you were proposing a few posts ago! Plus a recent R1 isn't much less. An older R1 is cheaper but not sure how much of a real world improvement I'd see.

StevieB - 5/9/06 at 10:34 PM

If you take the original bikes as a guide, the R1 is far superior to the blade right up until a year or two ago when the blade was totally redesigned. When it was first launched, the R1 was a sensation due to the amount of power it prioduced and the fact it was such a compact unit

the_fbi - 5/9/06 at 10:43 PM

I've got exactly the same dilemma but mines not even finished yet!

I already have a 954 complete too which I could fit, but I think the best route when i come to an upgrade will be to stick throttle bodies on it and install Microsquirt.

Cost should be sub £400 and it keeps the reliability of the 919 which is superiour to the 954.

No costly exhaust, prop, wiring, instrument, cradle, sump issues, just going from carbs to FI and programmable mapping too for extra fun.

Bang for buck it has to be the way forward for 919 owners.

Jubal - 5/9/06 at 11:07 PM

quote:
Originally posted by the_fbi
I've got exactly the same dilemma but mines not even finished yet!

I already have a 954 complete too which I could fit, but I think the best route when i come to an upgrade will be to stick throttle bodies on it and install Microsquirt.

Cost should be sub £400 and it keeps the reliability of the 919 which is superiour to the 954.

No costly exhaust, prop, wiring, instrument, cradle, sump issues, just going from carbs to FI and programmable mapping too for extra fun.

Bang for buck it has to be the way forward for 919 owners.



What improvement are you forecasting? Are you making up the parts yourself? Interested to hear more.

DIY Si - 5/9/06 at 11:18 PM

I'd like to second the blackbird engine. It only needs drysumping if you intend fast track days. Mine's fine for as-fast-as-I-can-go road use. It's also actually capable of 0-60 in roughly 4/4.5 secs.

the_fbi - 5/9/06 at 11:21 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Jubal
quote:
Originally posted by the_fbi
I've got exactly the same dilemma but mines not even finished yet!

I already have a 954 complete too which I could fit, but I think the best route when i come to an upgrade will be to stick throttle bodies on it and install Microsquirt.

Cost should be sub £400 and it keeps the reliability of the 919 which is superiour to the 954.

No costly exhaust, prop, wiring, instrument, cradle, sump issues, just going from carbs to FI and programmable mapping too for extra fun.

Bang for buck it has to be the way forward for 919 owners.



What improvement are you forecasting? Are you making up the parts yourself? Interested to hear more.


Realistically I've not even thought about power increase, they'll be one, but mostly a driveability improvement and smoothness of FI.

Its really just my way of moving forwards towards my 954 without using it, as its still not proven in BECs, plus the additional costs which will be an easy £600 for exhaust & sump + all the wiring changes for the HISS system, unless I get a USA loom/ECU which is more cost again.
Yes I could stick microsquirt on the 954 but all that would save would be the HISS wiring.

After the microsquirt has been on there a bit and the 919 getting tired, theoretically a busa (as Westfield do a cradle for it) could be dropped in using the same management just with a few sensor changes, manifold and prop. Or any engine if I made a cradle, + manifold + prop.

Just seems like a good starting point to upgrade the 919 to. Even if its still the same bhp it'll be doing it smoother, and it also means a cleaner engine loom install.

All theory at the moment though and won't happen this year unless I get a move on!

Jubal - 5/9/06 at 11:27 PM

You can keep smoothness, I want power

Plus, the car is a trackday car first and foremost. Engine upgrade will be accompanied by new roll bar.

the_fbi - 5/9/06 at 11:29 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Jubal
Are you making up the parts yourself?

As for that question, can't see theres a lot to make.

Microsquirt will need a few sensors, most of which the engine will already have (eg. coolant temp) and throttle bodies with a TPS, like the 929/954/bird ones, which probably even fit onto the 919's intake, although thats a guess based on how similar the heads (or any bike engine head) are.

O2 sensor will be needed, but thats just a boss in the collector, map sensor is an option but easily fitted in a vacuum line, the IAC valve is probably the only weird one but that possibly exists already on the bodies?

Crank position, need to look into that at some point.

Microsquirt wiring info here
http://www.microsquirt.info/us_wiring.htm

[Edited on 5/9/06 by the_fbi]

the_fbi - 5/9/06 at 11:33 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Jubal
You can keep smoothness, I want power

Plus, the car is a trackday car first and foremost. Engine upgrade will be accompanied by new roll bar.

Well, bhp/£ with tested reliability is probably still the R1 engine.
Yes there are newer engines which chuck out more power, but they cost more and aren't significantly (for the money) more powerful.

DIY Si - 5/9/06 at 11:37 PM

How powerful is the version of the R1 you're looking at? The bird is something around 165-170 and 85-90 lb ft.

the_fbi - 5/9/06 at 11:42 PM

quote:
Originally posted by DIY Si
How powerful is the version of the R1 you're looking at? The bird is something around 165-170 and 85-90 lb ft.

A non-dry sumped bird isn't as reliable as a non-dry sumped R1 though, so yes the bird has more power than an R1, but if it was my money I'd go with the more proven.

And I'm the one building a Megabird (with a blade engine) so I'm not biased against Birds!

the_fbi - 5/9/06 at 11:45 PM

That said, for this kind of money for a newish bird, it may sway me!

http://cgi1.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?MakeTrack&item=300023764708

Especially if microsquirt was available as the HISS could be sold off to cover the costs of microsquirt.

DIY Si - 5/9/06 at 11:51 PM

An older carb'd engine can be had for about £1000-1200. Yes, I agree it's MAYBE not as reliable on a track as the R1, but it'll go faster! The jury still seems to be out on that one though, as it is with most things BEC.
Actually, bu88er what I just said, buy that bird engine form the link before I do!!

[Edited on 6/9/06 by DIY Si]

fesycresy - 6/9/06 at 07:49 AM

Already page 4 and no mention of a red top or zetec ! Perhaps they've seen the light

I'd go ZX12 by the way. Malc (Yorkshire Engines) has sold these for silly cheap, I'm sure I've seen them as cheap as £1,450 for a kit, but may be wrong. That's a lot of go for your money.

cossey - 6/9/06 at 08:20 AM

04+ r1? the early ones are down to about £1500 now. its is a bit wider but lower than the earlier engines, thet are only a couple of bhp down on a zx12r/busa but are considerably lighter. the sump is pretty much the same as the 02-03 so should be fine with a baffle.

StevieB - 6/9/06 at 09:07 AM

I'm sure I read something about the later R1 engines being difficult for BEC installations (not as useable as the older engines or some such). Might be a load of ball-ox though

Gav - 6/9/06 at 11:20 AM

I think that might be the fact that on the later engines theirs less bottom end this making it hard for driving in traffic?

But on the other hand they have a better top end

cossey - 6/9/06 at 11:22 AM

ive got a 06 r1 in my fury ive had a few probs but nothing too major (mostly just getting parts made up as no one else had used one before).

the main thing that people say is wrong is a lack of torque, that is only partially true, it doesnt have the torque of the busa or zx12r but it is just as good as the old r1 just with more revs to play with so more power. the stock bike has a fairly big dip in torque but that is due to the exup valve which should be ditched.

smart51 - 6/9/06 at 11:25 AM

the latest blades have 1000cc engines. Wouldn't that be the easiest upgrade from a 919cc blade? I don't know what parts are commong but I'd hope you wouldn't have to move things too much. If you're lucky, the prop and exhaust manifolds would be in the same place and might just bolt up without modification.

the_fbi - 6/9/06 at 11:28 AM

quote:
Originally posted by smart51
the latest blades have 1000cc engines. Wouldn't that be the easiest upgrade from a 919cc blade? I don't know what parts are commong but I'd hope you wouldn't have to move things too much. If you're lucky, the prop and exhaust manifolds would be in the same place and might just bolt up without modification.

Unfotunately not.

From the 919 to 929/954 it all changed, from the 954 to 1L it all changed

Prop may be Ok, but the manifold is more expensive and wont

G.Man - 6/9/06 at 12:19 PM

Blackbird would be my choice for simplicity and improvement in performance..

Just get a decent sump for it...

ned - 6/9/06 at 12:48 PM

fit a proper engine - one out for a car like an ally block zetec se 1.6 with a kit from shawspeed to take it to 170bhp would probably cost near the same amount as a new bec install

cossey - 6/9/06 at 01:20 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ned
fit a proper engine - one out for a car like an ally block zetec se 1.6 with a kit from shawspeed to take it to 170bhp would probably cost near the same amount as a new bec install


£1330 for the upgrades +the base engine + £230 for the bell housing and maybe £50 for a reasonable type 9.
your looking at £2000+ you could easily get a full zx12r install for less than that which would be considerably quicker

G.Man - 6/9/06 at 02:18 PM

and thats assuming his chassis has enough room for a car box...

Hellfire - 6/9/06 at 05:04 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ned
fit a proper engine - one out for a car like an ally block zetec se 1.6 with a kit from shawspeed to take it to 170bhp would probably cost near the same amount as a new bec install


Considering he already has a bike engine in - he would need modifications to prop, probably dashboard (clocks) side panel (exits other side) and a pretty much comprehensive re-loom... that would be much, much more... and still not have the agility of a BEC around what is stated as a predominantly trackday car

Stick with BEC but try Nitrous... you could always sell it on should you want more power.

Steve

Steve

Jubal - 6/9/06 at 05:10 PM

So, I'm still undecided, apart from the fact that it will defo be a BEC. It's such an event, especially on track.

That Blackbird engine and a dry sump will be approx 1700. An '05 ZX10 was around 1500 last time I saw one for sale, an '06 more like 2k. A ZX12 will be between 1600 and 2200 depending upon age. R1s from a grand upwards depending on age.

Has anyone else done a ZX10? I will give MK a call and see what they say. I'm really nervous of starting something I can't finish.

Mind you, I'm not making any decisions until after I've had a spin of the 954 blade engined Toniq-R later this month at Oulton.

DIY Si - 7/9/06 at 01:48 AM

If you're going to be at donny later this month, assuming I've haven't sold it by then, I'll be there in my Indy Bird if you fancy a blast on the roads in one. Only as a passenger though!

progers - 7/9/06 at 07:45 AM

I can testify that an R1 BEC is every bit as fast (if not faster) than a blackbird on a track. I race a phoenix R1 (had an MK Indy R1 previously) and regularly compete against two blackbird engined furys in the same series (RGB).

In a straight line we are almost identical in pulling power but due to the lower weight of the R1 install I can typically outbrake and corner the heavier blackbird cars. The only advantage of the BB is grunt lower down in the rev range which may make it a better road car.

An R1 with decent exhaust and good cold air intake will easily put out 160bhp+. Mine measure 135bhp RWHp on Powertecs rollers. This was with a new (stiff) quiaffe diff which has now loosened up.

For bang for buck go R1. If you have a few more pennies go ZX12 as you do get siginifcantly more grunt with these. Budget for a dry sump though.

Hope that helps

Paul

DIY Si - 7/9/06 at 10:35 AM

How much heavier is a blackbird install than an R1? There can't be that much in it surely?

cossey - 7/9/06 at 01:15 PM

the R1 is only about 62-65kg whereas from memory the bird is nearer the busa/zx12r at about 85kg. not a huge amount but in a 420kg vs 440kg car then your talking about the bird needing 167bhp to be equal in power to weight with a 160bhp r1. the stock bikes were only a couple of bhp apart so the bird in reality isnt going really be any faster.

progers - 7/9/06 at 01:37 PM

If you add dry sump into the equation (needed for track work) the BB is typically 30-40kgs more. Thats quite a few burgers :-)

- Paul

Jubal - 7/9/06 at 02:34 PM

I'm carrying quite a few burgers myself

R1 may be the best overall compromise. Thanks chaps. What year R1 is best?

cossey - 7/9/06 at 05:32 PM

02-03 injection is probably the easiest to install but the 04 or later has 175bhp as opposed to 150bhp for the earlier engine. the early carb engines are getting a bit thin on the gound for low mileage ones

StevieB - 7/9/06 at 05:34 PM

I think the later engines, though more power, produce it all at the top end and don't make for great BEC engines.

I'm having the same considerations and there's a thread running in the BEC forum as to which is best - EFI or cabs

cossey - 7/9/06 at 07:31 PM

the newer engine has more power (and more torque) from about 6000rpm onwards compared to the older engine its max power is at a very high rpm (12500) that doesnt mean it isnt any good as the torque curve is fairly flat ove most of the rev range.