Hi

I have heard some storeys about a twin bike engine 4wd car out there does any body have any details or pictures of this mad machine. I would be interested in finding out how they have done the front weal drive from one of the engines. Any thourts of links would be great.

I believe it was a twin kawasaki engined tiger. had a split gearstick so you could drive the engines in different gears. I believe it still has the fastest road legal 0-60 of around 2.8 secs?! anyone confirm/correct me??

Ned.

http://www.tigerracing.com/cars/z100main.htm

Zcars are the guys that do all that stuff. But in short, don't bother, it's been discussed a million times before, and it's far more work than is justified by the performance increase. You'd be better off with a turbo'd hayabusa, and it would probably cost about a quarter as much too.

Kingr

Hi

Im not considering doing this just interested to see what has been done and how it was done.

I thourt I had herd of a car that did not have the transfer box and used the engins independently with a electronic control unit inbetwen to mack the revs

[Edited on 2/7/03 by ceebmoj]

The electronic gadgetry was not so nuch to match the revs, as traction control for the front engine. If you think about it, as the car accelerates hard, the weight on the front wheels is drastically reduced. Without the 'electronics', the engine driving the front wheels would hit the limiter, and the front wheels would just light up, and you end up with no steering.

HTH Stu.

its not uncommon 2 see 2 bike engines in the back of a car just driving the rear wheels...........

they shift a bit too

As I recall Tiffany Dell set that 0-60 record in the Z100 and then promptly blew up one of the engines on his second attempt! It was on Top Gear about 2 years ago. Can't drive for toffee that bloke

they give him toffee?

I think it needed about £10k's worth of Motec ECU to make it handle in a half reasonable manner, otherwise it just wouldnt go round corners happily at all. Other than the electronics , the way they did it was pretty simple really tho, just turn the forward-most engine around and drive a regular diff off that for the front wheels

quote:

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Originally posted by ChrisGamlin
I think it needed about £10k's worth of Motec ECU to make it handle in a half reasonable manner, otherwise it just wouldnt go round corners happily at all. Other than the electronics , the way they did it was pretty simple really tho, just turn the forward-most engine around and drive a regular diff off that for the front wheels

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Sbarro built a car (one-off) back in the late 70's using two Kawasaki Z1300 (6 cyl) units.

Both engines mounted in the rear seats, so to speak, driving rear wheels.

There is a twin bike engined Renault Clio, one in front, one in rear.

For the really old folk, but not bike engined, the was the Wolfrace Sonic.

Then again, for totally mental power outputs, anyone been watching the Tractor Pulling on Sat?

ATB

Simon

probably a ccc mag article at some point, but i remember a couple of years ago dubsport put two gti engines in a mk1 golf, one in front, one in back.
more recently top gear had a twin engined TT on their circuit at the old dunsfold aerodrome site.

Ned.

And didn't John Cooper nearly kill himself whilst out testing a twin engined mini in 1963. The crash was sufficiently bad that the development was stopped.

It's not a new idea, and it's still not a great deal safer either.

There's a hillclimb winning Dax Rush which has a turbo'd Hayabusa pushing out around 350bhp giving something like 800bhp per tonne. Apparently one of those can be built for 15000 quid. Who would want more?

[I'll be happy with around a quarter of that]

Cheers

Eddie

There were twin engined (one front and one back) VW Beetles operating in the desert campaign in N Africa during WW II.
There was also a similar factory built 4WD 2CV (or Dianne?).
I designed a transfer box/4WD system for a turbo Busa powered sand rail for a nutter in the States. I haven't heard or seen anything about it since though.

quote:

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Originally posted by ceebmoj

I had got the impression from the web sight that the output from both engines had been put in to a transfer/ central dif box and then the out put from this box had the been taken to the front and rear weels. However if like you say they simply used a control system between the two engines and then used control similar to that in a skyline to control the power balance between the front and rear of the car that would be an easer implementation (in my opinion)

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quote:

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Originally posted by ChrisGamlin
The rear wheel drive Z100 uses a transfer box between the two engines, but the 4wd Z100WR doesnt, just has one engine powering the front and one powering the rear, and uses the electronics to act as a pseudo "centre diff" to control the power to both ends.
Its simpler in concept I guess, but I cant see it would work (in a handling sense) as well as a proper 4wd system with centre diff etc, although for straight line acceleration its perfectly good.

Chris

[Edited on 4/7/03 by ChrisGamlin]

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To be fair, I guess its more of a gut feeling than anything, its just having heard how much electronics it needs to make it handle makes me feel its a flawed concept, and I dont feel that cutting engine power (which is very abrupt) is the best way of maintaining traction and balancing power distribution, its much better done in the drivetrain system with trick diffs etc.
With a regular 4wd system, it will distribute the power around the drive train, as you accelerate hard, it will transfer a bulk of the power to the rear wheels, and when you corner, it will balance the power accordingly. With two seperate engines though, all it can do is cut power to a set of wheels to stop wheelspin, but obviously cant redistribute that power to the rear wheels under acceleration for example. Also, I dont think that the electronics will give it a smooth transfer of power compared to a diff. For example, I cannot imagine a car like this doing 4 wheel powerslides because the electronics would be too abrupt, either giving full power, or cutting power, never giving a smooth feed of power when cornering.

Chris

Best way I've seen of sticking two bike engines together? At the crank!! oh yes, a V8 bike engine, how cool must that be? The sound must be absolutely mind blowing. Radical and Quaife are currently (seperately) both working on them. The down side? £26000 don't come easy to most people.

Uncle Considerably, can you lend me a bit of money please?

Kingr

Yup, certainly the best way to do it,

"V8" twin bike engine!"

Chris

[Edited on 4/7/03 by ChrisGamlin]

http://www.cyclonepowerltd.co.uk

the sites not up at the moment i think its under construction. Its the cyclone 2 litre V8 seen at the kit shows recently much more compact than the pic youve put up. 302bhp N/A at 10000 rpm.

For you sir...... £14000

That diff looks disturbingly like a sierra one for my liking, I guess a cossie one would take the abuse though.

Only £14000? I'll take two then, and have the first ever twin V8 quad BEC in the world, and propel myself into an early grave in about 2 second flat.

Kingr

well, the electric balancing of power to wheels for handling works perfectly well for the nissan skyline, admittably it only has one engine though!!

I have an image of the cyclone engine, clicky clicky

Ned.

Just struck me - no gearbox on it, I wonder what you'd mate it up to?

Kingr

anything i guess! the crankcase could be made with wahtever bolt patter i guess and Quarter master can have clutch plates for ford/hewland/staffs gearboxes I imagine. the one in the car was obviously connected to something, just dont know what!

Ned.

I can't think many gearboxes are going to take kindly to 10500RPM even if you could get a low enough geared diff.

Kingr

Kingr

Both gearboxes present, hence the valley of the V so wide.

Engines mounted so one g/box output at each end, to common transfer box, to prop etc (that's how I see it anyway).

If you want to see how to do it properly, have a look at the V8 Bike pic (last one) in my archive.

Looks just like the factory might of made it. This guy (names escaped me) started doing this sort of thing with a Honda C90 (Ugh) and IIRC is currently working on two 6 cyl Z1300 - 240 bhp 2600cc V12 - (nearly) 10,000.

And he does it with a hacksaw (apparently).

ATB

Simon

[Edited on 4/7/03 by Simon]

Are you refering to the Chris or Ned's pic? Chris's pic, yup granted, two gearboxes, but Ned's pic, I'm 99% no gearboxes, hence flywheel and clutch in picture.

Kingr

Kingr

Was referring to Chris's pic. Completely missed Ned's link!!

Agree - no box. Looks v. nicely done. I reckon they've had new blocks/cranks cast, and bolted on the bike "barrels" and heads. Hence the price.

As for boxes, I don't reckon (anyone care to comment- please?) the engine will be putting out much more torque than two
bike engines - so combined engine fig of perhaps 250ft lb, which shouldn't be a problem. As for the RPM, I reckon they've thought of that, but if you're spending 20+grand on an engine, what's another 5 on a box?

Now, where's that Camelot ticket!

ATB

Simon

makes you wonder how close the crank is, with all those rods in such a small space. also must have an interesting way of timing all the cams together (complex belt or chain drive i expect)

with regards to gearbox, i was talking about the image with the engine fitted into the quantum demo car:

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/~ned/images/IMG_0147.jpg

Ned.

I know of a V8 being built for Coram, based on twin ZX12s. It's all hush hush, and I'm not even sure if Coram are still going ahead with it, as I haven't spoken to the engine's builder since I got out of hospital. Not sure I should be saying all this!
I'll post a pic of it next week, when I'm back on my main puter (hence no nice smilies recently!).

quote:

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Originally posted by ned
well, the electric balancing of power to wheels for handling works perfectly well for the nissan skyline, admittably it only has one engine though!!

Ned.

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Ah Rorty, you're right it is hush hush, and I dont think the boys would be amused if a photograph of the thing appeared in this forum, its not public knowledge here yet, the current cars are only built with the ZX9 and ZX12 engines, the beast u whisper about is for the next development of the current chassis. I would have thought details of it would be better coming from the designer or the prospective customers?
regards
Shug.

Just dont hold your breath, this "hush hush" engine has been talked about freely by Coram staff for a couple of years (with regards to its existence rather than technical detail) and nothing has materialised in a Coram yet.

Mmmmmmmmmm couple of years, the Coram team has only been around full time since last August, and the prototype construction commenced in December 2002. Development time for an engine with a major manufacturer is currently 3 years or so (ish), and thats just to get it reliable for every day use in a road car never mind the loads expected in a track car. At the outside I think they are at the seven month mark since inital contact, Im just glad time does not pass so quick in my wee world damn got to go I seem to be popping my clogs early! arghhhhhhhhhh.
Shug

Hmm, so the Coram that was talked up vigorously and initially scheduled to appear at the Autosport show in Jan 2002 has nothing to do with this car then?

What planet do you live on?? Coram appeared at Autosport in Jan 2003 and as Hugh says they weren't in existance as a company etc until Aug 2002.

Maybe you should lay off of that Maui Wowee!

Either that or your time machine needs an adjustment with a bigger hammer!

I'm perfectly happy on planet earth ta, Ive got absolutely nothing against Coram and the remark was meant to be tongue in cheek but I admit maybe didnt come across that way.
Anyway, no matter what you say, the car has been in the making before August last year even if Coram wasnt a company as such, and the mention of a V8 engine has also been mentioned regularly for a similar time without any engine actually appearing.

Dated 16/4/02

cheers
Chris

[Edited on 17/7/03 by ChrisGamlin]

I have no connection with Coram, Chris Gamlin et al, but I've been aware of this V8 program for well over a year and a half.
I won't divulge any of the details or pics, even though since my last post above, I have had a "tip off" about the exact same engine from a UK source who had just seen a pic of the "new" engine!

A few years back, Hart did a V8 with 2x Yamaha FZR1000 Exup engines.

Can't remember what it was for, but they gave me a bag of crap for asking why they'd bolted 2 such engines to a common crankcase. They showed it at the British Motor Show probably 10-ish years ago.

Brian Hart's outfit was aquired by TWR a few years back, now in receivership.

I wonder who's got one of these motors?

Cheers,

Neil.

... and another thing, there could be lubrication issues with converting the engine to inline, and also the slant of the motor (assuming it's reversed from it's motorcycle installation) could perhaps put pressure on piston faces that weren't designed for it.

Bit of a stab in the dark that one, but a mate was working on the K-series V6 at Powertrain (Rover's engine supplier) and he had similar issues. Surely a higher stressed bike engine could be worse.

Cheers,

Neil.