Ford ST170 Zetec Engine Cat Cams Jenvey Mk1/2 Escort Fiesta Blacktop
Edited to add link
[Edited on 19/11/15 by Adamirish]
Apologies as I know this type of question has been asked in various different guises, and I have done some extensive reading via google and the search
function on here, but don't seem to have the answer to this specific question.
I'm scratching around looking for a donor engine for the Avon. I've read about the Zetec 1.8 and 2.0, and the ST170 Durance/Zetec engine.
I've read about the varying degrees of success with locking the variable cams on the ST engine, and also the £300 little gizmo box which can work
the VVT correctly.
My question is, if I was planning on fitting some Kent cams (or similar), could I fit these to the ST engine (so spend money on some cams rather than
the £300 VVT gizmo)? Would fitting the cams to an ST engine give me a better engine package than fitting the cams to a blacktop 2.0? Or would I be
better off sticking with the VVT option on the ST engine?
Thanks
It's up to you as to what a better engine package means?
If you haven't got your car on the road yet I would look for the simplest and cheapest (value) deal is. All 4 engine (I think) share similar stud
patterns for mounts, inlet and exhaust which means they are interchangeable (not 100% on the ST). All will produce 'similar' power if
you're not going for s/c or turbo. If I had my first build time again I would get it in the road then buy another zetec and make it up whilst
having a running car to play with. In short I wouldn't bother with the ST, buy a Blacktop 2.0 with descent cams will be a good first drive.
Should have said, this is pure track car. It will get some abuse. Was wondering if the St engine was stronger and better engineered?
I already have the exhaust and inlet manifold, along with engine mounts. Have a few months to get it ready for the track season in 2016.
Duratec ST150
Generally the ST170 motor is a stronger engine especially if you want to exceed 7000rpm. They have better, lighter pistons and stronger rods. As standard they rev to 7400 and with arp rod bolts are good for 8000rpm. They also have a bigger valve head and also flow better than the blacktop. The only problem is cams. As far as I know only one company make them for the st motor. Cat cams. Great power gains and over 200 hp with jenveys. Down side is they are expensive at £800 a set!
Piper cams have them listed, but not sure if that is a direct replacement, and if it includes the VVT delete kit (doubtful). Will try calling around
tomorrow.
I like the idea of a stronger, slightly enhanced head. If I'm going to do this, and the ST170 engine would be a better proposition but just
slightly more expensive, then I'd potentially rather explore that option.
The st170 is a better engine to start with but as always there are pros and cons.
The st170 has better pistons and rods but they are NOT forged. The rods have bigger big end cap bolts. The engine has a higher Cr ratio. The head has
bigger valves and ports.
The heads are weaker not stronger and are less forgiving of overheating.
Base engines are popular at the moment and full engines are starting at £300+ Small potatoes in the scheme of things but you can get three or four
zetecs for that.
To get the same power from a zetec would require head porting and cams.
There is what looks like a good ST motor on eBay at the moment as it happens. It sounds expensive at £4250ono but, it comes already built with cams,
headwork, forged pistons and rods, 48mm jenveys, loom and ecu. 237bhp. Apparently only done 600miles too. Considering the tb's and ecu is the
best part of £2k I don't think it's bad value.
Ford ST170 Zetec Engine Cat Cams Jenvey Mk1/2 Escort Fiesta Blacktop
Edited to add link
[Edited on 19/11/15 by Adamirish]
quote:
Originally posted by Adamirish
There is what looks like a good ST motor on eBay at the moment as it happens. It sounds expensive at £4250ono but, it comes already built with cams, headwork, forged pistons and rods, 48mm jenveys, loom and ecu. 237bhp. Apparently only done 600miles too. Considering the tb's and ecu is the best part of £2k I don't think it's bad value.
Ford ST170 Zetec Engine Cat Cams Jenvey Mk1/2 Escort Fiesta Blacktop
Edited to add link
[Edited on 19/11/15 by Adamirish]
quote:
Originally posted by J90rdn
quote:
Originally posted by Adamirish
There is what looks like a good ST motor on eBay at the moment as it happens. It sounds expensive at £4250ono but, it comes already built with cams, headwork, forged pistons and rods, 48mm jenveys, loom and ecu. 237bhp. Apparently only done 600miles too. Considering the tb's and ecu is the best part of £2k I don't think it's bad value.
Ford ST170 Zetec Engine Cat Cams Jenvey Mk1/2 Escort Fiesta Blacktop
Edited to add link
[Edited on 19/11/15 by Adamirish]
You've got me sold, but you'll need to run it past the financial director for final approval. She's back from work at 6 and is likely to be in a bad mood. You up for a challenge ;-)
quote:
Originally posted by big-vee-twin
Duratec ST150
The newest ST170 engine will be 10 years old and will probably have been thrashed for most of its life. Its likely to need a decent amount of money
spending on it to make it reliable for the future.
Similar with the ST 150 engine but it is a bit newer.
Or you can buy an unused crate Blacktop for under £1000. Sell off the bits you don't need on e-bay to reduce the price.
With TB fuel injection it will produce about 170 bhp out of the box and if you feel the need a pair of cams and a bit of head work will see it up to
210 bhp with no further mods other than possibly a set of ARP rod bolts.
Guess which I have in mine.
Yeah, suddenly remembered I also have a Jenvey Zetec inlet manifold as well, so that would be 3 things that I would need to replace - not worth it I
guess.
Am I wrong to think the following? These crate blacktops were about £600 not long ago. It riles me slightly to think that some companies have hoovered
these up with the sole intention of sitting on them for a year or so then selling them for a premium. So yes, I like the idea of a new engine, but no,
don't like the idea of being slightly (and I guess only slightly) ripped off.
quote:
Originally posted by J90rdn
These crate blacktops were about £600 not long ago. It riles me slightly to think that some companies have hoovered these up with the sole intention of sitting on them for a year or so then selling them for a premium. So yes, I like the idea of a new engine, but no, don't like the idea of being slightly (and I guess only slightly) ripped off.
Don't forget that these crate engines are now a minimum of 10 years old, so budget in for a cambelt if you go for one.
quote:
Originally posted by prawnabie
Don't forget that these crate engines are now a minimum of 10 years old, so budget in for a cambelt if you go for one.
quote:
Originally posted by Paul Turner
The newest ST170 engine will be 10 years old and will probably have been thrashed for most of its life. Its likely to need a decent amount of money spending on it to make it reliable for the future.
Similar with the ST 150 engine but it is a bit newer.
Or you can buy an unused crate Blacktop for under £1000. Sell off the bits you don't need on e-bay to reduce the price.
With TB fuel injection it will produce about 170 bhp out of the box and if you feel the need a pair of cams and a bit of head work will see it up to 210 bhp with no further mods other than possibly a set of ARP rod bolts.
Guess which I have in mine.
Taking everyones opinions on board, I spoke to a few people yesterday who are selling crate blacktops. Waiting for 1 to reply with a quote, and if a
price can be agreed will be going down that route. Priced up a cambelt and seems they are about £22 from euro car parts, so worth doing. Once ordered,
will be buying an RX8 gearbox and adapter plate as I fancy giving that a try. The cutting disk will be getting some action on the transmission tunnel
over xmas :-)
Will update post with prices etc when all sorted.
Thanks
the rx8 box will fit with a little cutting and welding
quote:
Originally posted by Antnicuk
the rx8 box will fit with a little cutting and welding
Slightly off topic but why do people think that 'unused' cambelts on crate engines need replacing? They have seen no dynamic stress, only a modest static load, and live in a dark ( no UV ) oil free environment. Not much different to the replacement you might buy that has been on the parts shelf for years. Just interested if anyone has got any evidence on this.
The belts have been sat under tension(albeit not a great deal) for x amount of years while the ones off the shelf wont have been.
For the sake of £20 its silly not to change it. It would be a shame to have to rebuild the head on a brand new engine.
quote:
Originally posted by johnH20
Slightly off topic but why do people think that 'unused' cambelts on crate engines need replacing? They have seen no dynamic stress, only a modest static load, and live in a dark ( no UV ) oil free environment. Not much different to the replacement you might buy that has been on the parts shelf for years. Just interested if anyone has got any evidence on this.
quote:
Originally posted by J90rdn
quote:
Originally posted by johnH20
Slightly off topic but why do people think that 'unused' cambelts on crate engines need replacing? They have seen no dynamic stress, only a modest static load, and live in a dark ( no UV ) oil free environment. Not much different to the replacement you might buy that has been on the parts shelf for years. Just interested if anyone has got any evidence on this.
Would the belt not have been under tension for 10 years+, unlike a boxed belt. Plus, I doubt any boxed belt would be over 10 years old.
Replacement is belt and braces. Not sure if this is a safe or interference engine, but for £20 is it worth the risk on a £900 engine?
quote:
Originally posted by johnH20
Slightly off topic but why do people think that 'unused' cambelts on crate engines need replacing?
Yeah, brake fluid isn't hydroscopic at all - it's just those darn scientists creating a conspiracy.
For the benefit of those who have kindly replied to my 'off topic' contribution, I too would not take a needless risk for £20 but I am just curious about the science hence my question about evidence. I guess that only someone from Gates is really likely to know the answer.
Sorry John, my last comment was not aimed directly at you, more the previous post about conspiracy theories about oil changes etc, mainly because
I've seen it times before.
It's a valid point you make. I had a J reg sierra (run out model) back in the day which I never bothered servicing or cam belt changes on - you
can guess that it went pop, and was an interference engine (CVH I assume). Wasn't mega milage, and at the time wasn't that old, but it was
passed it's time for a belt change by about a year if I recall, so my fault I guess. From that point on I've stuck to the schedule.
I guess regardless of the storage conditions, rubber will perish over time no matter what, and I imagine the stress the belt comes under means any
degradation inevitably leads to failure.
^^ on the focus blacktops ford state the timing belt is every 100k or 10 years (whichever comes first) - but they also state "depending on how
its been driven"
also I've seen other sources quote as low as 36k for a timing belt on these (i.e. about the same as most older engines)
when I got my 1.8 in the tin-top it had 79k on it and no records of any work so I just changed it strait away - the one that came off was a gates
branded one (rather than motorcraft branded, although I'm fairly sure they are all made by gates) so one of the previous owners obviously
didn't believe the 100k or 10 years either 
ps - I loved my 1.8 blacktop in the focus, its such a revvy willing engine in stock form - it made me want to use all the power it had all the time
(although probably not powerful enough for the OP's plans)
[Edited on 25/11/2015 by mcerd1]
quote:
Originally posted by johnH20
Slightly off topic but why do people think that 'unused' cambelts on crate engines need replacing? They have seen no dynamic stress, only a modest static load, and live in a dark ( no UV ) oil free environment. Not much different to the replacement you might buy that has been on the parts shelf for years. Just interested if anyone has got any evidence on this.
Well kingster997 I asked for evidence and you have provided it! I am in much the same position as you were so not wishing to repeat your experience I will change it this winter. As it happens I have just found an unused cambelt in the back of my cupboard that must be approaching 10 years old. I think I will bin it! ( Still don't understand the science though, the cords do the work, the rubber just holds them together. )