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Pinto power - upgrading to Nodiz worth it?
cjwood23 - 2/11/21 at 10:49 PM

Hi all I'm currently looking at a couple of Pinto powered Westies that fit my budget.

Both have standard coil/distributor ignition set up and carbs (twin 45's or bike carbs).

I'd probably look at upgrading to an ignition only ECU like Nodiz to get the most out of the engine.

How easy is this to do and is it worth the money?

Future long-term plan would possibly be to replace with a Duratec or similar.

What sensors would I need other than crank sensor and trigger wheel?

Would the standard Zetec loom with TPS and crank sensor work on the pinto?

How would I wire a TPS to carbs?

Also how's the best way to sort out ditching the distributor whilst retaining the oil pump drive?

Thanks

snapper - 3/11/21 at 05:59 AM

You could run MAP instead of TPS or use bike carbs that already have TPS
you can leave the distributor in place and just cover off the distributor cap, there are some cut down flush adaptors with a short distributor drive and gear that does the job.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cosworth-Distributor-Aluminium-Blanking-Cap-Sierra-Escort-Rs-Wasted-Spark-/174604236953?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2 349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/COSWORTH-WRC-DISTRIBUTOR-BLANKING-DRIVE-BUNG-WRC-GROUP-A-SIERRA-ESCORT-MOUNTUNE-/182317468317?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trk sid=p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0

[Edited on 3/11/21 by snapper]

[Edited on 3/11/21 by snapper]

cliftyhanger - 3/11/21 at 06:58 AM

Mapped ignition won't really add any power. You could get better mid range torque and increased economy at cruise.
But if thinking of alater engine change no harm, as long as you plan to keep carbs and not go EFI.
If thinking of efi, why not get a full ecu and be ready to add injection later?

A TPS is not difficult, all it does is fit to the carb spindle using a little bracket. They may be available premade, or make your own.

Loom, I expect nodiz would have a Ford TPS connector and coilpack connector, plus the nodiz plug. You would need to source a coilpack and set of OE (or at least very good quality) leads.

Other alternatives are megajolt, which is probably more reliable than nodiz. And of course any full ecu.

mcerd1 - 3/11/21 at 09:14 AM

quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
...But if thinking of alater engine change no harm, as long as you plan to keep carbs and not go EFI.
If thinking of efi, why not get a full ecu and be ready to add injection later?

^^ what he said, I'd base any decision on your long term plans for the car - none of these ECU's are really cheap anymore



Megajolt is the tried and tested old favourite and looks like it would set you back ~｣250 for an ECU and wiring kit right now, but then you need to add a Ford EDIS4 module too.
The EDIS could be considered a good or bad thing -
-Bad as its an extra part that could cost you ｣50-130 depending where you get it from (although if your lucky you could get it from a local scrapyard for ｣25 complete with all the wiring like I did )
but good because its an extra level of fail safe reliability - if the EDIS gets no signal from the ECU then it defaults to a fixed 10ｰ advance 'limp home' mode - so even a dead ECU won't stop the car

Nodiz look like its selling for ~｣300 with the loom and it doesn't need the EDIS


But both of these on a pinto also need a crank (VR) sensor, trigger wheel, coil pack, plug leads and the MAP or TPS sensor (most bike carbs already have a TPS though)
The Zetec crank sensor is the same as the one most folk use for these - but the zetec has the trigger wheel built into the flywheel - so its at the opposite end from where you'd add the trigger wheel on a pinto.

Also both of these still use a serial port to connect to the PC for tuning (RS232) - so if you don't have an old laptop with one of these you'll need to get a good USB adapter that supports all the features needed for these (most cheap ebay special ones don't - loads of old threads about this)



but if your plan is to swap to a Duratec later is it worth looking at something that could support EFI and the std. Coil on Plug duratec setup ?
No doubt this will cost more now - but it would make it much more future proof...




second hand megajolts do come up from time to time, but not very often - and old kit built ones would be easily fixed too if you found a damaged one (hopefully for next to no ｣｣) - all the info on the old kits is still on the Autosport labs site: linky )

my old megajolt 3 was the last one you could but as kit to solder yourself, that was much cheaper even when getting someone else to supply & solder it it was under ｣100 (I'm totally useless with a soldering iron... )

the whole of the rest of the parts I pulled of a 1.6 mk3 fiesta in the scrapyard - except the coil pack, it came form a zetec engine (they are supposed be give a stronger spark ?)
Description
Description <-- all that lot for ｣25


[Edited on 3/11/2021 by mcerd1]

mcerd1 - 3/11/21 at 09:20 AM

just a though - If you'd like a cheap easy option to add some reliability you could just do a strait swap for a electronic dizzy on the pinto
I think H&H ignition aren't all that far from you (Brierley Hill) and I found them very easy to deal with
https://www.facebook.com/HHignitionsolutions/


quote:
Originally posted by cjwood23
Also how's the best way to sort out ditching the distributor whilst retaining the oil pump drive?


the best way would be to take an old dizzy and stick it in the lathe
strip everything back until all thats left is the shaft & bearings and then make a new sealed cap for it - like this:
Pinto nearly done
Pinto nearly done
(I can't take credit for the actual work - it was made for me as part of a swap/deal with the guys at H&H)

the easy way is the caps snapper linked above



[Edited on 3/11/2021 by mcerd1]

cjwood23 - 3/11/21 at 01:03 PM

Thanks all.

Not sure about engine swaps etc - as this would be my first 7, so would be to see how it goes & hoe much I use it.

I'm thinking mappable ignition more from the point of drivability rather than performance - especially as some (most) of the cars I've looked at have non-standard cams fitted.

I'll take a look at the Megajolt system too - thanks.

snapper - 3/11/21 at 05:48 PM

I知 running Megajolt with MAP sensor, on a dyno apparently TPS is easier to hold steady on a particular load bin.
I have only just recently worked out what the light load ignition timings should be, basically add 1 degree per load site from the WOT numbers as a start point.
I found a calculator online that got me started

mcerd1 - 3/11/21 at 06:23 PM

^^ What does your map look like now / do you have screen shot of it?

I've collected a handful base maps for pinto's in different tunes if anyone needs a starting point

snapper - 4/11/21 at 07:48 AM

The map is for a high compression 2.1 with ported big valve head running. RL31 cam so not relevant to any other Pinto.
Due to the engine idling at 1000+ rpm the timing rises later and therefore you get a steeper curve.
What I have also learned is that unleaded fuel burns quicker so the old mantra of 36 to 38 degrees at 3600 to 3800 is essentially wrong and 30 to 32 more reasonable.
Based on a standard distributor ignition curve you would run idle ignition to 3600rpm along the high load low vacuum row and add 1 degree per load row.

This gives me a base for the dyno tune.
In reality your ignition would track from low load idle diagonally to high load across the map and a dyno can hold engine revs allowing you to map each rpm column.

mcerd1 - 4/11/21 at 11:31 AM

^^ I'm fully expecting to have to go through all that too (hopefully soon, just got a few issues to resolve with the sump first )

Mine is closer to your spec than the average pinto so its good to get some ideas for a starting point

for now I've only got std. valves in mine, but on bronze guides with a piper 285 cam (270ｰ/290ｰ at 11.81mm lift so a bit less than your RL31, but more than the FR32 most folk seem to fit)
thats fitted to a effectively cossie bottom end with 93mm flat top pistons and should be about a 10.5:1 CR (DCR~8.5:1 about as high as I dare for now)

the maps I've managed to find aren't really close enough to my spec so I'm expecting to have to change them a fair bit:
Description
Description Description
Description
(^^ these two are supposedly a stock engine and a big valve monster)

PS - if anyone wants copies of these maps (and a few others) just ask

[Edited on 4/11/2021 by mcerd1]

crimondbanger - 4/11/21 at 06:11 PM

All the megajolt/nodiz/cannems are pretty much the same , megajolt is getting a bit long in the tooth and needs the ford coil pack driver so would avoid as others have it pretty much built in or can drive stand along coil packs like VW polo/vauxhall etc which is neater and easier to source and 1 less thing to go wrong.



If you want to get the best out of the pinto dizzy for a race cam they can be mapped and its not particularly difficult to do yourself ( if you know how).

Standard pinto needs advance of about 12 degrees tickover @ 850rpm and max 40 degrees at 4000rpm +

A race cam + head skim needs 18 degrees advance at tickover @ 1100rpm and max 34 degrees at 3000 rpm+

The dizzy has 2 springs , 1 light and 1 heavy . Change the heavy one for a light one so there are 2 light springs .

bend the spring holders so the the springs are just held by the posts there on.

bend the advance weight limit tabs in a bit to limit there throw

Try it on the engine and test with a timing light that has an advance adjust + shows RPM.


Have made a few dizzys in the past and it turns a horrible lumpy / boggy engine into something a lot more drive-able, unfortunately ive binned/sold all my pinto stuff as got fed up working on them.

snapper - 5/11/21 at 05:01 AM

quote:
Originally posted by mcerd1
^^ I'm fully expecting to have to go through all that too (hopefully soon, just got a few issues to resolve with the sump first )

Mine is closer to your spec than the average pinto so its good to get some ideas for a starting point

for now I've only got std. valves in mine, but on bronze guides with a piper 285 cam (270ｰ/290ｰ at 11.81mm lift so a bit less than your RL31, but more than the FR32 most folk seem to fit)
thats fitted to a effectively cossie bottom end with 93mm flat top pistons and should be about a 10.5:1 CR (DCR~8.5:1 about as high as I dare for now)

the maps I've managed to find aren't really close enough to my spec so I'm expecting to have to change them a fair bit:
Description
Description Description
Description
(^^ these two are supposedly a stock engine and a big valve monster)

PS - if anyone wants copies of these maps (and a few others) just ask

[Edited on 4/11/2021 by mcerd1]


Second map looks close to mine but I知 running load bins 10 to 100 on MAP any thing above about 103 is boost

JC - 5/11/21 at 06:54 AM

A simple alternative may be to use a 123+ tune - this replaces the distributor and is fully programmable by bluetooth. It is really simple to install, literally just swaps for the dizzy! I have one in my supercharged MGB

https://123ignition.com

cjwood23 - 5/11/21 at 09:26 AM

quote:
Originally posted by JC
A simple alternative may be to use a 123+ tune - this replaces the distributor and is fully programmable by bluetooth. It is really simple to install, literally just swaps for the dizzy! I have one in my supercharged MGB

https://123ignition.com


Looked at those (also mentioned on a WSCC forum thread) but they don't do a Pinto version.

mcerd1 - 5/11/21 at 10:11 AM

quote:
Originally posted by cjwood23
quote:
Originally posted by JC
A simple alternative may be to use a 123+ tune - this replaces the distributor and is fully programmable by bluetooth. It is really simple to install, literally just swaps for the dizzy! I have one in my supercharged MGB

https://123ignition.com


Looked at those (also mentioned on a WSCC forum thread) but they don't do a Pinto version.


^^ also in terms of a 3D ignition map it looks like they only offer a vacuum advance - so not much upgrade on the tuneability of a dizzy (sort of a half step up from any old electronic dizzy you've been able to get for years like Aldon, Accuspark, Lumenition...) and its not like they are all that cheap either

Not saying its a bad thing, but its seems more suited to a near stock classic car (strait swap with a little tunability added) and limited to engine's that use the same dizzy type - where as for the same kind of money you could have a standalone ECU that would work on any engine - even modern ones without dizzy's


mind you if you've got lots of time/patience you could just tune the original dizzy
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Distributor-type-Ignition-System-Speedpro-SpeedPro/dp/1903706912/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=isbn+1-903706-91-2&qid=1636106935&am p;qsid=259-0965405-8369228&s=books&sr=1-1&sres=1903706912&srpt=ABIS_BOOK
(but this is were the guys at H&H come in if you don't fancy doing it yourself)

mcerd1 - 5/11/21 at 11:28 AM

quote:
Originally posted by snapper
Second map looks close to mine but I知 running load bins 10 to 100 on MAP any thing above about 103 is boost


yeah, not sure whats going on with the load bins on that one - needs them re-calibrated like you say or 0%-100% for a TPS (like I've got)

snapper - 8/11/21 at 07:13 AM

quote:
Originally posted by snapper
The map is for a high compression 2.1 with ported big valve head running. RL31 cam so not relevant to any other Pinto.
Due to the engine idling at 1000+ rpm the timing rises later and therefore you get a steeper curve.
What I have also learned is that unleaded fuel burns quicker so the old mantra of 36 to 38 degrees at 3600 to 3800 is essentially wrong and 30 to 32 more reasonable.
Based on a standard distributor ignition curve you would run idle ignition to 3600rpm along the high load low vacuum row and add 1 degree per load row.

This gives me a base for the dyno tune.
In reality your ignition would track from low load idle diagonally to high load across the map and a dyno can hold engine revs allowing you to map each rpm column.


Update to my comment on max ignition advance, the engine dyno operator (not a rolling road) has told me that my engine likes 28 degrees @ 3500rpm which is interesting.
This was on the dyno痴 exhaust manifold, a distributor and his twin 45痴, I値l be running my manifold which has been calculated for best harmonic pulse scavenging and a set of 37mm bike carbs on a DanST manifold and 90mm trumpets this may be a limiting factor as overall intake length is less than optimal and 37mm carbs may not be big enough.
This is a journey of discovery for me and the dyno operator so he is keen to try different things, running his manifold, distributor and carbs has allowed him to benchmark my engine and compare with other engines, the big difference will be the carbs.

jacko - 9/11/21 at 08:20 PM

quote:
Originally posted by mcerd1
just a though - If you'd like a cheap easy option to add some reliability you could just do a strait swap for a electronic dizzy on the pinto
I think H&H ignition aren't all that far from you (Brierley Hill) and I found them very easy to deal with
https://www.facebook.com/HHignitionsolutions/


If I知 reading the first post right you have not got a car yet if so how do you know if the ignition needs changing
I had a H&H ignition modified dizzy and I had no problems at all
If you search my posts you will see what was modified to my pinto
Jacko