hobbsy
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| posted on 1/7/10 at 03:10 PM |
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Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I've finally just ordered a set of HBD305F's (~320cc/min).
I'm starting to collect the misses pieces to my turbo kit.
Just wondering if the PC3R I have will give me enough control on the fuelling (and ignition!)
Joao - did you order any injectors? How are you getting on?
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INDY BIRD
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| posted on 1/7/10 at 09:28 PM |
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std injectors should be fine for 6 psi prob safe upto 8-10 psi,
run a begi rising rate fuel press reg and piggy back power comander,
prob only get away with 6 psi on std rods pistons long term any way?
if run a intercooler i ran 2" pipe to intercooler 6 psi may not even need it?
i got 260+ bhp on my zx10r turbo @ 8psi,
but had falicon rods and forged pistons in there and ran a 4x4 cossie intercooler modified, all was pretty safe at afr 11-11.5 good luck with the
boost
sean
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hobbsy
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| posted on 2/7/10 at 07:15 AM |
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At lot of the stuff I've read seems to imply that the 5PW injectors are already quite small for the task. I did rig up datalogging on duty
cycle on my engine but I had gearbox issues before I actually logged any data (doh!).
For some reason I'd rather fit larger injectors than a rising rate FPR as I at least know the effect will be pretty much linear across the
map.
I.e. I can take my existing NA map and in theory apply a correction factor of (old injector size / new injector size) to each of the cells and it will
put the fuelling back to where it was before but then I'll have more "headroom" for the parts of the map where boost is made.
That's the theory anyway!
Its still not a whopping jump as the HDB305F's are only 320cc/min and the std ones are 240cc/min so call the NA engine 160bhp that means at the
same duty cycle they are good for 320/240 = 1.3333 x 160 = 213.3 bhp.
Which isn't a millon miles away from my initial target I suppose.
They still seem like small injectors when compared to a std turbo car as I've said before (e.g. S14a 200sx runs 370cc/min injectors to make
200bhp as std).
Edited to say I have got some H beam rods from maximill666 so I will throw those in. I believe those are the first component you need to uprate on
the R1. I could be tempted to put pistons in as well but before you know if you've spent a lot.
My original plan was just a stock engine with a thicker head gasket.
I think I'll run an intercooler (or charge cooler for easier packaging and shorter intake pipe runs) in any case as even at low boost they help
look after the engine and make more power.
[Edited on 2/7/10 by hobbsy]
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 2/7/10 at 09:02 PM |
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zx10r injectors are massive show-head designs and flow about 1.5x what gsxr1000 injectors flow (milk-bottle and stop-watch testing).
On my normally aspirated gsxr1100 I have maxed out the gsxr1000 injectors at 13=AFR (these are rated at 270cc/min* and are common to gsxr600 and
gsxr1300) so I think that I wouldn't trust them with a turbo on an R1.
Lots of useful injector information and calculators here
http://www.injector-rehab.com/
Once you have got past the cheeky pictures.
Matt
*many think these are 240cc/min, my milk bottle wasn't precise enough to determine the difference between 270 and 240.
[Edited on 2/7/10 by matt_gsxr]
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hobbsy
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| posted on 14/7/10 at 01:20 AM |
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As a follow on to turbo R1 fuelling my main current concern is that using my PowerCommander PC3R (older serial version than the USB one but does
ignition control as standard) will only allow be to map against TPS and not MAP.
I suppose if I were to use a BEGI rising rate FPR that might mean the fuelling is related to boost as this FPR is boost referenced.
I guess the "proper" but more expensive and time consuming way is a standalone ECU that uses a MAP sensor.
Anyone who has built an injected turbo BEC care to comment?
INDY BIRD - what did you fuelling correction figures look like in your PowerCommander? As I understand it the BEGI FPR lets you change both when it
becomes rising rate and also the ratio (and the standard pressure)?
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hobbsy
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| posted on 14/7/10 at 02:46 AM |
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Hmm, just had another thought. I've got a megasquirt kicking around in the garage but don't quite fancy using it to run everything.
How using this in a limited fashion just to control a secondary set of injectors in the plenum runners or similar that only kick in when I am making
boost (or just before)?
It would mean the off boost running of the car was still off the stock ECU (and PowerCommander) then when on boost it can whack the extra fuel in
using a MAP sensor to know whats going on.
I can keep the original clocks (and very useful error codes) etc etc unlike if I go for a standalone. Also it *should* be simpler to map, no cold
start etc etc just do the on boost bits.
I've already got a juicy enough Walbro pump to feed both sets of injectors.
Thoughts?
[Edited on 14/7/10 by hobbsy]
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 14/7/10 at 10:12 AM |
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I think the "piggy back" MS is an interesting idea. Would you run Alpha-N or MAP? You need both. This is possible with MS1 but is a bit
messy to do.
The only problem is that the day your MS fails, is the day that you blow up your engine, as you get no warning at the low RPM sites (like you would
normally if running an MS for everything).
I have some cbr600rr secondary injectors with the fuel rail and all the bits. These are nice as they direct air right into the trumpets. If you are
interested. Like the ones in this air box mock-up.
Staged injection like this is great in a turbo as it takes some heat out of the mixture.
From what I have read, in turbo applications you want to be running lower AFR than NA. So you will want to have a bit more fuel than your simple
flow-rate proportional to BHP calculation.
Matt
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hobbsy
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| posted on 14/7/10 at 01:52 PM |
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I think the MS I have is a V2 but I need to check.
I've not read up properly on the MS but surely I want to use just speed-density (using a MAP sensor, RPM and an intake temp sensor) for the
secondary injectors.
I'm going to leave the primary injectors to the stock ECU (and existing power commander) I think.
Are you running secondary injectors on your NA GSXR1100?
If those secondaries are from a 600 aren't they going to be very small (for my application at least!)
Take your point WRT injector sizing but my initial thought on the secondaries was maybe to use the rail and injectors from a spare set of R1
TB's that I have lying around.
I seem to recall some issues with their impedance when used with megasquirt? Will need to do more research.
After doing more research last night I came across a US site (predominately turbo busa's I think) www.turbobikes.org and it seems what they deem
as stage 2 onwards is all about running secondary injectors controller by either MS or Microtech. Stage 1 is the only one that does it the slightly
dirty way of using an "FMU" (rising rate adjustable FPR).
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hobbsy
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| posted on 14/7/10 at 02:51 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by matt_gsxr
The only problem is that the day your MS fails, is the day that you blow up your engine, as you get no warning at the low RPM sites (like you would
normally if running an MS for everything).
Just re-read your post and this bit concerns me a bit! I wonder if there is anything I can do to counter this? Having a quick think about it I
don't know that there is...
Hmm. No-one said it was going to be easy (or maybe I did?  )
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johnny chimpo
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| posted on 11/6/13 at 12:36 PM |
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dragging up a mega old thread.....
Hobbsy, did you ever get your turbo'd r1 finished?
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