Autoflock Motorsport
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| posted on 26/11/14 at 01:07 PM |
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Killing starters after a spin
A good friend of mine is now selling his dominator which im gutted about as its the only one I know in existence which is being used (when its not
broke)
After a track day last sat he at his wits end with it, he and his father spun the car on 2 occasions, both times dumping the clutch as fast as
possible but the second time proved too late and it caused the starter to fail.
I myself have done this when I spun mine. Is there anyway to help prevent this? obviously more driver talent to stop the spin in the first place
would be great lol
Kind regards
Raj
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/23/viewthread.php?tid=183445
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CosKev3
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| posted on 26/11/14 at 02:08 PM |
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Bit more info required imo for anyone to help 
What exactly happens to them?
Turning over for ages before engine fires, engaging starter whike car still rolling etc?
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mrnoluck
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| posted on 26/11/14 at 03:33 PM |
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What engine are you running ?
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minitici
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| posted on 26/11/14 at 03:43 PM |
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If you are running a Hayabusa you need to fit a special sprag clutch which is available from places such as SBD
http://www.sbdev.co.uk/Hayabusa/Hayabusa_starter_motor.htm
http://www.novaracing.co.uk/ProductHayabusaStarterClutch.html
[Edited on 26/11/14 by minitici]
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Andy B
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| posted on 26/11/14 at 04:30 PM |
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Not sure which engine you are running but I have personally seen this happen to ZX12r's, ZX10r's, Fireblades, Busa's and
GSXR's. The end result depends on how quick you catch it with the clutch, how fast you are going, how sticky your tyres are how lucky you are.
Results range from a toasted starter to a lump smashed out of a crankcase(busa) and a few bent cranks to boot(blade and ZX10r)
The answer is set the car up to be compliant and stable so you can catch the slides and if you push too hard hit the clutch instantly.
As pointed out there is a clutch kit to tackle this issue on Busas
best regards
Andy
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CosKev3
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| posted on 26/11/14 at 05:22 PM |
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Out of interest cause I like to know/understand things like this what is it that breaks/damages them?
Not got a clue on how a bike starter works,(thinking its called pre-engaged?)was searching everywhere for a solenoid when got my R1 eng!
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mark chandler
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| posted on 26/11/14 at 05:52 PM |
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Blades and most others have a ratchet gear like a pushbike, go backwards and the starter is spun up to and beyond its designed speed, it's
permanantly engaged where a car is only engaged when called for.
[Edited on 26/11/14 by mark chandler]
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CosKev3
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| posted on 26/11/14 at 10:13 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
Blades and most others have a racket gear like a pushbike, go backwards and the starter is spun up to beyond its designed speed, it's
permanantly engaged where a car is only engaged when called for.
[Edited on 26/11/14 by mark chandler]
Ah right cheers, so all bike engines starters are like this?
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mark chandler
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| posted on 26/11/14 at 10:25 PM |
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Some old ones used to use the starter motor as the generator as well, but in general yes they are pretty much all like this.
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Autoflock Motorsport
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| posted on 27/11/14 at 08:44 AM |
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sorry for the late reply and thankyou very much for the responses so far. The engine on my friends dominator is an R1, mine is a gsxr 1000 k4, I spun
mine as in my video (type dom @ anglesey 2014 into youtube) went to try and start it an nothing was happenening, when I removed the starter and opened
it up all the internals had literally disintergrated. Is there anything for the GSXR that could help this?
on another note, has anyone ever tried to keep the car sliding once its broke tracktion such as a drift? Im normally not too mad in a rwd car but for
the life of me I cant seem to correct the slide intime :-(
Again serviere lack of talent
Kind regards
Raj
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/23/viewthread.php?tid=183445
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adithorp
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| posted on 27/11/14 at 10:35 AM |
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Never heard of it being an issue on an R1. Spun mine several times and not had an issue (360 into the gravel at Brands just 2 weeks ago, 80+mph at
Blyton, LOTS of times on a day at Oultons drift tracks...)
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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Autoflock Motorsport
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| posted on 27/11/14 at 11:20 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by adithorp
Never heard of it being an issue on an R1. Spun mine several times and not had an issue (360 into the gravel at Brands just 2 weeks ago, 80+mph at
Blyton, LOTS of times on a day at Oultons drift tracks...)
did you clutch in straight away mate?
Kind regards
Raj
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/23/viewthread.php?tid=183445
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simonrh
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| posted on 27/11/14 at 11:53 AM |
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So the problem occurs when you spin because you start to go backwards which tries to drive the starter motor in reverse through the sprag clutch? Just
to understand.
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Autoflock Motorsport
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| posted on 27/11/14 at 12:49 PM |
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I think so but not too sure, the problem is these cars i find are just soooo hard to drive on (the drivers) limit so spinning I think is going to be a
frequent occurence next year.
Im trying to find a few tuition courses to try and grasp the whole driving aspect of it a bit more. These cars I think are all about being neat and
not drifting etc
Kind regards
Raj
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/23/viewthread.php?tid=183445
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adithorp
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| posted on 27/11/14 at 01:51 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Autoflock Motorsport
quote:
Originally posted by adithorp
Never heard of it being an issue on an R1. Spun mine several times and not had an issue (360 into the gravel at Brands just 2 weeks ago, 80+mph at
Blyton, LOTS of times on a day at Oultons drift tracks...)
did you clutch in straight away mate?
Guess I do once it's a "spin"
...but then the question is when is it a spin? Personally I'd say you won't catch many that get beyond 45deg and thats where I'd be
getting the clutch in... and by the time you've reacted it'll be well past 45. Anything that gets to 90deg is lost and fair to call a spin
(and the wheels will be going backwards).
Guess it comes back to your earlier Q about holding a drift. You can in a BEC but it's not as easy as a CEC as with an engine that can rev
quickly and not a lot of inertia (in either engine or car), once they go things happen very quick. Guess mid-engine also makes it worse. If you feel
it going and keep your foot in (Clarkson style) it'll get worse and if you lift off (natural reaction) it'll snap the other way on you;
The trick is to modulate the throttle so it stays between the 2 and recovers slowly.
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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Autoflock Motorsport
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| posted on 27/11/14 at 02:11 PM |
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you make it sound soooo simple lol
i lost it at anglesey on the left hander after the finish straight, hit the apex and opened it right up, ran wide and though I would clip the opposite
rumblestrip on the exit, WHAT TO TWAT I WAS
seriously the car lifted and lost traction, i let off and it snatched straight back the other side. Really shook me up
Kind regards
Raj
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/23/viewthread.php?tid=183445
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Autoflock Motorsport
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| posted on 27/11/14 at 02:13 PM |
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dont laugh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iRXGht_7rI
My first ever drive in the dom
Kind regards
Raj
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/23/viewthread.php?tid=183445
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adithorp
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| posted on 27/11/14 at 02:31 PM |
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Yes, a lot easier to say than it is to do. Video here of me (near the end) not getting the balance right. The camera car was doing 115mph allegedly
when it started...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=so_i3ZaEtHY
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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Autoflock Motorsport
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| posted on 27/11/14 at 03:42 PM |
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ive just literally pissed myself laughing, well held that mate, I bet colourful languge was being spoken if not screamed when that started snaking.
The camera car wast hanging around at a ll to be fair. Looks so much easier to drive than a mid engined car
Kind regards
Raj
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/23/viewthread.php?tid=183445
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ReMan
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| posted on 27/11/14 at 07:36 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by simonrh
So the problem occurs when you spin because you start to go backwards which tries to drive the starter motor in reverse through the sprag clutch? Just
to understand.
Yes
www.plusnine.co.uk
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wombat258
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| posted on 28/11/14 at 07:38 AM |
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Yes, if you spin and the engine goes backwards because you did not disengage the clutch, the sprag on the starter motor engages and allows the engine
to drive the starter motor. The starter now goes from being able to spin the engine flat out at 300 rpm, to whatever the wheels drive the engine to in
reverse. I have seen the windings on the starter rotor break and hit the stator. I have also had an alternator break rotor windings because of the
sudden speed reversal.
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v8kid
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| posted on 28/11/14 at 08:55 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by wombat258
Yes, if you spin and the engine goes backwards because you did not disengage the clutch, the sprag on the starter motor engages and allows the engine
to drive the starter motor. The starter now goes from being able to spin the engine flat out at 300 rpm, to whatever the wheels drive the engine to in
reverse. I have seen the windings on the starter rotor break and hit the stator. I have also had an alternator break rotor windings because of the
sudden speed reversal.
Wow I learn summat new and interesting every day!
But what about the camshafts and the oil pump don't they object to going backwards? particularly the camshaft the lobes will be loaded on the
opposite side from normal rotation and they might not be symmetrical.
Cheers!
You'd be surprised how quickly the sales people at B&Q try and assist you after ignoring you for the past 15 minutes when you try and start a
chainsaw
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