J90rdn
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| posted on 19/11/15 at 12:51 AM |
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Blacktop or ST170
Apologies as I know this type of question has been asked in various different guises, and I have done some extensive reading via google and the search
function on here, but don't seem to have the answer to this specific question.
I'm scratching around looking for a donor engine for the Avon. I've read about the Zetec 1.8 and 2.0, and the ST170 Durance/Zetec engine.
I've read about the varying degrees of success with locking the variable cams on the ST engine, and also the £300 little gizmo box which can
work the VVT correctly.
My question is, if I was planning on fitting some Kent cams (or similar), could I fit these to the ST engine (so spend money on some cams rather than
the £300 VVT gizmo)? Would fitting the cams to an ST engine give me a better engine package than fitting the cams to a blacktop 2.0? Or would I be
better off sticking with the VVT option on the ST engine?
Thanks
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Chaz
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| posted on 19/11/15 at 07:50 AM |
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It's up to you as to what a better engine package means?
If you haven't got your car on the road yet I would look for the simplest and cheapest (value) deal is. All 4 engine (I think) share similar
stud patterns for mounts, inlet and exhaust which means they are interchangeable (not 100% on the ST). All will produce 'similar' power if
you're not going for s/c or turbo. If I had my first build time again I would get it in the road then buy another zetec and make it up whilst
having a running car to play with. In short I wouldn't bother with the ST, buy a Blacktop 2.0 with descent cams will be a good first drive.
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J90rdn
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| posted on 19/11/15 at 08:07 AM |
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Should have said, this is pure track car. It will get some abuse. Was wondering if the St engine was stronger and better engineered?
I already have the exhaust and inlet manifold, along with engine mounts. Have a few months to get it ready for the track season in 2016.
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big-vee-twin
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| posted on 19/11/15 at 11:59 AM |
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Duratec ST150
Duratec Engine is fitted, MS2 Extra V3 is assembled and tested, engine running, car now built. IVA passed 26/02/2016
http://www.triangleltd.com
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Adamirish
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| posted on 19/11/15 at 12:32 PM |
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Generally the ST170 motor is a stronger engine especially if you want to exceed 7000rpm. They have better, lighter pistons and stronger rods. As
standard they rev to 7400 and with arp rod bolts are good for 8000rpm. They also have a bigger valve head and also flow better than the blacktop. The
only problem is cams. As far as I know only one company make them for the st motor. Cat cams. Great power gains and over 200 hp with jenveys. Down
side is they are expensive at £800 a set!
MK Indy 1700 Xflow
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J90rdn
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| posted on 19/11/15 at 04:00 PM |
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Piper cams have them listed, but not sure if that is a direct replacement, and if it includes the VVT delete kit (doubtful). Will try calling around
tomorrow.
I like the idea of a stronger, slightly enhanced head. If I'm going to do this, and the ST170 engine would be a better proposition but just
slightly more expensive, then I'd potentially rather explore that option.
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big_wasa
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| posted on 19/11/15 at 04:39 PM |
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The st170 is a better engine to start with but as always there are pros and cons.
The st170 has better pistons and rods but they are NOT forged. The rods have bigger big end cap bolts. The engine has a higher Cr ratio. The head has
bigger valves and ports.
The heads are weaker not stronger and are less forgiving of overheating.
Base engines are popular at the moment and full engines are starting at £300+ Small potatoes in the scheme of things but you can get three or four
zetecs for that.
To get the same power from a zetec would require head porting and cams.
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Adamirish
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| posted on 19/11/15 at 05:00 PM |
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There is what looks like a good ST motor on eBay at the moment as it happens. It sounds expensive at £4250ono but, it comes already built with cams,
headwork, forged pistons and rods, 48mm jenveys, loom and ecu. 237bhp. Apparently only done 600miles too. Considering the tb's and ecu is the
best part of £2k I don't think it's bad value.
Ford ST170 Zetec Engine Cat Cams Jenvey Mk1/2 Escort Fiesta Blacktop
Edited to add link
[Edited on 19/11/15 by Adamirish]
MK Indy 1700 Xflow
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J90rdn
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| posted on 19/11/15 at 05:11 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Adamirish
There is what looks like a good ST motor on eBay at the moment as it happens. It sounds expensive at £4250ono but, it comes already built with cams,
headwork, forged pistons and rods, 48mm jenveys, loom and ecu. 237bhp. Apparently only done 600miles too. Considering the tb's and ecu is the
best part of £2k I don't think it's bad value.
Ford ST170 Zetec Engine Cat Cams Jenvey Mk1/2 Escort Fiesta Blacktop
Edited to add link
[Edited on 19/11/15 by Adamirish]
You've got me sold, but you'll need to run it past the financial director for final approval. She's back from work at 6 and is
likely to be in a bad mood. You up for a challenge ;-)
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Adamirish
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| posted on 19/11/15 at 05:19 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by J90rdn
quote:
Originally posted by Adamirish
There is what looks like a good ST motor on eBay at the moment as it happens. It sounds expensive at £4250ono but, it comes already built with cams,
headwork, forged pistons and rods, 48mm jenveys, loom and ecu. 237bhp. Apparently only done 600miles too. Considering the tb's and ecu is the
best part of £2k I don't think it's bad value.
Ford ST170 Zetec Engine Cat Cams Jenvey Mk1/2 Escort Fiesta Blacktop
Edited to add link
[Edited on 19/11/15 by Adamirish]
You've got me sold, but you'll need to run it past the financial director for final approval. She's back from work at 6 and is
likely to be in a bad mood. You up for a challenge ;-)
It's such a shame I go to work at 6pm! I would love to help you otherwise mate. Cook her dinner and buy her flowers. I don't know why
I'm telling you that, it never worked for me!
Try the "look how much money we would be saving rather than building it myself" line. That probably won't work either so good luck,
you are on your own!
MK Indy 1700 Xflow
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J90rdn
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| posted on 23/11/15 at 02:04 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by big-vee-twin
Duratec ST150
Missed this one. What are pros and cons? I do already have Zetec mounts and manifold, but I guess they could be sold.
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Paul Turner
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| posted on 23/11/15 at 03:23 PM |
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The newest ST170 engine will be 10 years old and will probably have been thrashed for most of its life. Its likely to need a decent amount of money
spending on it to make it reliable for the future.
Similar with the ST 150 engine but it is a bit newer.
Or you can buy an unused crate Blacktop for under £1000. Sell off the bits you don't need on e-bay to reduce the price.
With TB fuel injection it will produce about 170 bhp out of the box and if you feel the need a pair of cams and a bit of head work will see it up to
210 bhp with no further mods other than possibly a set of ARP rod bolts.
Guess which I have in mine.
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J90rdn
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| posted on 23/11/15 at 03:45 PM |
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Yeah, suddenly remembered I also have a Jenvey Zetec inlet manifold as well, so that would be 3 things that I would need to replace - not worth it I
guess.
Am I wrong to think the following? These crate blacktops were about £600 not long ago. It riles me slightly to think that some companies have hoovered
these up with the sole intention of sitting on them for a year or so then selling them for a premium. So yes, I like the idea of a new engine, but no,
don't like the idea of being slightly (and I guess only slightly) ripped off.
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Paul Turner
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| posted on 23/11/15 at 04:13 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by J90rdn
These crate blacktops were about £600 not long ago. It riles me slightly to think that some companies have hoovered these up with the sole intention
of sitting on them for a year or so then selling them for a premium. So yes, I like the idea of a new engine, but no, don't like the idea of
being slightly (and I guess only slightly) ripped off.
I bought mine about 7 years ago and paid £650 + VAT from Raceline, £780.
Today you can buy one from Raceline for £875, 2000cc Ford Zetec FOCUS Black Top Engine an increase of £95 or 12%, not a rip
off is it really.
An alternative is Kit Spares who want £950. But based on how they dealt with issues with a product I bought form them a few years ago I would not deal
with them again.
Cheapest I saw when I bought mine was £700 all in but I preferred to buy from Raceline since they give excellent service and assistance.
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prawnabie
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| posted on 23/11/15 at 04:51 PM |
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Don't forget that these crate engines are now a minimum of 10 years old, so budget in for a cambelt if you go for one.
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Paul Turner
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| posted on 23/11/15 at 04:58 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by prawnabie
Don't forget that these crate engines are now a minimum of 10 years old, so budget in for a cambelt if you go for one.
Good point, changed mine last year, it was built 2004.
Personally I would not be changing pulleys and tensioners on a new engine, just the belt.
For the record all the crate engines were built 2004 which is when production of the Zetec stopped. Ford had enough stock to see the mk1 Focus out and
the Mk2 in 1800 and 2000 forms was a Duratec.
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kingster996
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| posted on 23/11/15 at 05:48 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul Turner
The newest ST170 engine will be 10 years old and will probably have been thrashed for most of its life. Its likely to need a decent amount of money
spending on it to make it reliable for the future.
Similar with the ST 150 engine but it is a bit newer.
Or you can buy an unused crate Blacktop for under £1000. Sell off the bits you don't need on e-bay to reduce the price.
With TB fuel injection it will produce about 170 bhp out of the box and if you feel the need a pair of cams and a bit of head work will see it up to
210 bhp with no further mods other than possibly a set of ARP rod bolts.
Guess which I have in mine.
This is precisely why I will also be buying a crate Zetec (plus new cam-belt) for mine over winter. I actually have a perfectly good ST170 sat in the
garage that I heard running before the guy took it out for me.
However - I decided that I'd rather go for a new engine instead of an older one. I'd need some way to do the VVT on the ST170 and so once
I factor that in, the crate engine isn't too expensive really.
Anyone want to buy the ST170? Cost me £340 earlier this year open to offers...
[Edited on 23/11/15 by kingster996]
I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure
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J90rdn
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| posted on 24/11/15 at 01:51 PM |
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Taking everyones opinions on board, I spoke to a few people yesterday who are selling crate blacktops. Waiting for 1 to reply with a quote, and if a
price can be agreed will be going down that route. Priced up a cambelt and seems they are about £22 from euro car parts, so worth doing. Once ordered,
will be buying an RX8 gearbox and adapter plate as I fancy giving that a try. The cutting disk will be getting some action on the transmission tunnel
over xmas :-)
Will update post with prices etc when all sorted.
Thanks
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Antnicuk
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| posted on 24/11/15 at 07:20 PM |
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the rx8 box will fit with a little cutting and welding
600 BHP per ton, Stylus Brought back from the dead! Turbo Rotary Powered!
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J90rdn
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| posted on 24/11/15 at 07:23 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Antnicuk
the rx8 box will fit with a little cutting and welding
Yep, thats the idea. Nothing a bit of metal glue won't fix.
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johnH20
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| posted on 25/11/15 at 10:36 AM |
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Slightly off topic but why do people think that 'unused' cambelts on crate engines need replacing? They have seen no dynamic stress, only
a modest static load, and live in a dark ( no UV ) oil free environment. Not much different to the replacement you might buy that has been on the
parts shelf for years. Just interested if anyone has got any evidence on this.
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Adamirish
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| posted on 25/11/15 at 10:48 AM |
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The belts have been sat under tension(albeit not a great deal) for x amount of years while the ones off the shelf wont have been.
For the sake of £20 its silly not to change it. It would be a shame to have to rebuild the head on a brand new engine.
MK Indy 1700 Xflow
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J90rdn
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| posted on 25/11/15 at 10:50 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by johnH20
Slightly off topic but why do people think that 'unused' cambelts on crate engines need replacing? They have seen no dynamic stress, only
a modest static load, and live in a dark ( no UV ) oil free environment. Not much different to the replacement you might buy that has been on the
parts shelf for years. Just interested if anyone has got any evidence on this.
Would the belt not have been under tension for 10 years+, unlike a boxed belt. Plus, I doubt any boxed belt would be over 10 years old.
Replacement is belt and braces. Not sure if this is a safe or interference engine, but for £20 is it worth the risk on a £900 engine?
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Adamirish
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| posted on 25/11/15 at 11:00 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by J90rdn
quote:
Originally posted by johnH20
Slightly off topic but why do people think that 'unused' cambelts on crate engines need replacing? They have seen no dynamic stress, only
a modest static load, and live in a dark ( no UV ) oil free environment. Not much different to the replacement you might buy that has been on the
parts shelf for years. Just interested if anyone has got any evidence on this.
Would the belt not have been under tension for 10 years+, unlike a boxed belt. Plus, I doubt any boxed belt would be over 10 years old.
Replacement is belt and braces. Not sure if this is a safe or interference engine, but for £20 is it worth the risk on a £900 engine?
The zetecs are an interference engine. Ask me how I know! If I had of known then what I know now, I wouldn't have put it off for so long.
MK Indy 1700 Xflow
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Paul Turner
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| posted on 25/11/15 at 11:18 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by johnH20
Slightly off topic but why do people think that 'unused' cambelts on crate engines need replacing?
Keeping costs low is one thing. Saving the cost of a cam belt, an item that has a service life and does break is totally stupid.
A cam belt costs less than a fill up with fuel and on a Zetec can last 10 years (mine will be changed earlier) so why on earth would you want to risk
it.
One forum I visit has a poster that refuses to accept that cam belts require changing, says its a conspiracy. He inspects his every year and coats it
with talc. Says he will change it when he sees cracks.
But he also refuses to accept that oil, brake fluid and antifreeze need changing, again its all a conspiracy. Claims his car, which is 35 years old
and he has owned form new is still on its original brake fluid, coolant but has had 5 oil changes.
Total muppet.
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