alister667
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| posted on 5/2/05 at 10:58 PM |
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CBR1000 turbo advice
Folks,
Myself and a couple of friends have been left in the envious position of having a 'spare' CBR1000 Locost (based on an original MK book
chassis).
Anyhow we also have a spare CBR1000 engine for it sitting in the garage, so we reckon a little 'experimenting' might be in order.
We're thinking of fitting a turbo.
I've got Joe Haile's book 'Motorcycle Turbocharging' and good it seems too (I have to read the thing now as opposed to just
looking at the pics!).
Basically I wanted to know do you have any ideas what type of turbo unit we should be looking at?
We're planning on running a modest boost so we don't have to change the internals, maybe just fit another head gasket to reduce the
compression ratio a touch.
Price is the main consideration, so brand new is out! I did a little trawl around ebay and found a
Garrett GT15 going for
40 odd quid (couple of days left). This came from a diesel. I assume it is based on the Garrett G15. Might be the same even. Any ideas?
Is there any reason a turbo from a diesel would be unsuitable?
Those old Saab (petrol) Turbos, would they be worth looking at? Would they be too big for a CBR1000?
The MG Metro Turbo / Escort Cosworth uses a Garrett T2 (I think) are there other cars we should be looking at scavanging from?
There was a thread about garage19 doing turbo kits for blades on here but I never
heard anything more about this. He was mentioning a Garrett T25 - what road car would be a good source of these, or should I just sniff rounf ebay a
lot?
We're still in the planning stage so any ideas/thoughts are greatly appreciated.
I had a read of the Westfield Turboblade page but (nice job though it is) it was got from
Holeshot for in around £3200. I'm thinking 10% of that.....
Hey, it is Locostbuilders.co.uk after all!
Many thanks
Ali Jackson
http://members.lycos.co.uk/alister667/
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chunkielad
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| posted on 5/2/05 at 11:16 PM |
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I personally think that the turbo off a diesel would be a good place to start as they are low pressure so not as liklely to kill the engine.
I'm not a mechanic though so someone please prove me right or wrong.
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nick baker
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| posted on 6/2/05 at 12:17 AM |
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Woah there on the Diseasel Turbo....
Combustion temp for diesel oil is much lower than that of petrol.
Will check it with a mate who works for Holset Turbos, but I seem to remeber that you'll melt the turbine blades.
http://www.mc-xpress.com
These guys (above linky) use a mistubishi turbo for 1000cc bike engines... and I think they have a UK-based importer for kits and parts.
This is them:
Holeshot Racing
Appelby House
Walker Terrace
Wakefield Road
BRADFORD, BD4 7HP
UNITED KINGDOM
Phone: + 44 1274 722200
Fax: +44 1274 732277
Maybe they'll be able to help point you in the right direction... let us all know the result.... I might get one set up if my project ever
becomes road-legal!! 
There's a Lad from Luleau in the "three wheeler" section on this site.... he has a GSXR turbo engine in his T42 trike (mad bit of
machinery).... he might be able to help too
Regards,
N
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colibriman
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| posted on 6/2/05 at 12:19 AM |
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I asked Garage19 about his kit when that thread was posted, he said the turbo to have is the garrett T105 from the ford Diesel......
Colin
need a bike engine? - www.colibriman.com
SVA ready Mk Indyblade possibly for sale.....if the offers good...!
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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nick baker
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| posted on 6/2/05 at 12:25 AM |
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crud... just read that it was holeshot who supplied the original kit.
but you don't need to buy it all ...
I'd suggest looking for a 1.6 to 2ltr turbo unit.... bigger engine than the cbr1000, but turning at half the speed of a bike engine.. therefor
producing the same amount of exhaust gasses as a fully functioning bike engine.
go for a built in waste-gate too. I'd recon the T2 might be a wee bit too small... but it's only a logic-based-guess.
I'm just rambling now.. it's late.
N
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nick baker
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| posted on 6/2/05 at 12:26 AM |
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LMAO
Thanks Colin.
*that hissing noise is me being deflated*
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colibriman
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| posted on 6/2/05 at 12:33 AM |
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haha... Nick..your right it is late....
I know nothing, but am all ears as far as this subject goes....
Doug (Garage19) said that he had tried a T2 (or maybe a T25) but it was too big so wasn't creating enough boost..apparently it was only 5bhp or
so more...
The advice on the T105 came from a guy at Garrett....
I think we could do with Doug coming along to help and put right the rambling here....
Oh DOOOOOUUUUUGGGGGG.....! You there?
[Edited on 6/2/05 by colibriman]
need a bike engine? - www.colibriman.com
SVA ready Mk Indyblade possibly for sale.....if the offers good...!
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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nick baker
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| posted on 6/2/05 at 12:39 AM |
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Well.. hmm interesting. Glad i pointed out that I was only GUESSING regarding size.... I will have to talk to Kay when I get to work on monday. She
deals with Diesel turbos day in and day out.... She might know something about Garret units and sizing...
I have an old metro turbo unit lying around in the UK... but I think the bearing's a tad fudged. It was going to go on my buggy, but I never got
round to it.
Anyhoo... I can say that the guy who told me not to use the diesel turbo claimed to have worked for Garret....
Right.. I have to be in the sauna in 7 hours.... better go to Bed.
Nighty Night.
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colibriman
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| posted on 6/2/05 at 12:40 AM |
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I also seem to remember looking at a website in America that also suggested trying either a diahatsu GTTI turbo unit (KKK I think) or the mitsubishi
turbo unit was mentioned too...
need a bike engine? - www.colibriman.com
SVA ready Mk Indyblade possibly for sale.....if the offers good...!
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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Peteff
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| posted on 6/2/05 at 12:43 AM |
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You could ask this bloke a question.
It's not a cbr 1000 and it's not cheap but he might be able to give you some pointers.
ebay link
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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colibriman
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| posted on 6/2/05 at 12:49 AM |
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The aerodyne turbo mentioned in the ebay linky, was (I think) the one used by MR Turbo in the USA...but their kits were crazy money too..
any way...I'm off to my kip now too.....
need a bike engine? - www.colibriman.com
SVA ready Mk Indyblade possibly for sale.....if the offers good...!
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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phelpsa
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| posted on 6/2/05 at 08:31 AM |
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How about a Subaru Impreza turbo. These pop up regularly on Scoobynet where people have upgraded. A TD04 of a new style WRX (not STi) should be about
right.
Adam
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alister667
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| posted on 6/2/05 at 11:30 AM |
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OK thanks for that, it looks like a wee trip to the scrappies looking for a Garrett T105 from a Ford Diesel.
Any idea which engines they came with at all? I've searched google for info and found very little.
The Subaru ones might be a bit pricey, but I'll bear it in mind.
Thanks again
Ali
http://members.lycos.co.uk/alister667/
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phelpsa
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| posted on 6/2/05 at 11:35 AM |
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I think they go for about £200
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jambojeef
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| posted on 6/2/05 at 02:45 PM |
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Oh I like the idea of this!
I've been thinking of something similar myself since I've gotta make an exhaust anyway - it may aswell be a turbo manifold!
I was thinking along the lines of a KKK turbo off either an Uno turbo Mk1 or Mk2 - only 1300cc or 1400cc depending on which age your car is and theres
usually some around.
I know the Mr turbo systems use a fuel injection conversion but does anyone know whether this replaces the carbs or is a supplemental fuel injector as
run on the cossie 4 pots and stuff?
Not sure I fancy carbs and turboing!
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colibriman
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| posted on 6/2/05 at 03:26 PM |
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I know the Mr turbo systems use a fuel injection conversion but does anyone know whether this replaces the carbs or is a supplemental fuel injector as
run on the cossie 4 pots and stuff?
Jambo,
I've got a magazine with an article on it, It says it uses a fuel injection system by a company called Martronic from California.
Another interesting thing it said was that he used shotblasted clutch steels (along with upgraded springs).
need a bike engine? - www.colibriman.com
SVA ready Mk Indyblade possibly for sale.....if the offers good...!
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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jambojeef
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| posted on 6/2/05 at 07:13 PM |
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hmm, sounds like a proper job. If you've got the article to hand - any chance of a copy? I'll sling you 10p for photocopying !
I guess if I was going to go down this route Id look at chucking the carbs and fittnig throttle bodies / plenum with the megasquirt system and
megaspark driving the ignition.
Be interesting to hear of anyone thats gone down this route though? So many questions!!!
For one - wont the majority of the turbo housing be outside the car body panels? Sounds a bit vulnerable to me?!
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colibriman
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| posted on 6/2/05 at 07:19 PM |
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no worries....email or U2U me your address and I'll send you a copy...
if I can get my scanner working I'll do it that way.....
wont the majority of the turbo housing be outside the car body panels? Sounds a bit vulnerable to me?!
naaaaa...not if your good with your welding.....
out of the engine and go down to the turbo...loadsa free space there just now...
need a bike engine? - www.colibriman.com
SVA ready Mk Indyblade possibly for sale.....if the offers good...!
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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jambojeef
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| posted on 6/2/05 at 07:23 PM |
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You've got U2U!
Yeah I guess the turb can go wherever - I'd quite like poking menacingly out of the dashboard with something anodised and knurled avaialble for
on-the-fly tweaking.....mmmm!
Be interesting to see where Mr Turbo puts his!
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nick baker
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| posted on 7/2/05 at 06:41 PM |
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T105.... Bad Idea according to Holset engineer
I said I'd mail her, and I forgot, so I just rang her...
Kay (a very good friend from University) has been working for Holset Turbos in Yorkshire for a few years. She's a Rapid Problem Solver within
the company (goes and finds out what went wrong with installed turbos) and has spent a couple of years speccing and tuning Be-spoke turbos for
high-performance diseasel applications.
In short.... she knows Everything there is to know about turbos, but specialises in Diseasel ones.
To clear up a myth, and in the hope of saving some dissapointment for someone, I asked about using a diesel-turbo in a petrol application... I
explained the background (Cheap BEC-Turbo options etc)
This is what she had to say.
She Laughed, and simply said... No. Don't waste your time on it: use one from a petrol car.
Why?
Average temperature of exhaust gasses in a diesel: 600°C
High performance diesels run at 760°C and generally that's as high as they go.
Avergage Temp of Petrols: 900°C
She pointed out that the design to diesel turbos is essentially the same, but the compression ratio differs, as do the Materials used by all
manufacturers.
ONLY the High-end diesel-Turbos can withstand the 760°C exhaust temps: More standard diesel turbos are only expected to survive 650.
"Running a Turbo designed for diesels on a Petrol engine would Kill the Turbo"
Maybe the T105 is originally a petrol turbo.... If so, it should stoll funtion adequately on a diesel... But MAKE sure it'll withstand Petrol
temps BEFORE you drop a couple of hundred quid on one.
She basically confirmed what I'd been told before by an ex-garret guy.... I didn't trust him so wasn't prepared to go further than
merely repeating what he'd said.
I trust Kay implicitly, and after hearing her explanations, I'd advise against using anything that originated from a diesel engined car.
Your call.
N
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colibriman
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| posted on 7/2/05 at 08:04 PM |
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Hmmmmm....very interesting.....don't suppose you could try an get a list off Kay of models of turbo to look for?
need a bike engine? - www.colibriman.com
SVA ready Mk Indyblade possibly for sale.....if the offers good...!
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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nick baker
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| posted on 7/2/05 at 08:15 PM |
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LOL....
Could ask her for brochures i guess... I'll mail her tomorrow to see if she can find out about the T105.... but to be honest She deals with
bigger things... Trucks mainly. There was a Dodge Truck taht smashed the diesel land-speed record on the Utah salt flats....
http://www.bankspower.com/im_tt_july03.cfm
She was on the team doing all the calcs for that I seem to remember....
I'll ask, but might draw a blank.
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alister667
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| posted on 8/2/05 at 08:32 AM |
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OK then I'll hold off on the T105!
Thanks for the info
Cheers
Ali
http://members.lycos.co.uk/alister667/
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nick baker
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| posted on 8/2/05 at 11:03 AM |
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http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/kits/kit_Suzuki_Hayabusa.htm
The official Garret kit for the Hay-Bus..... uses same turbo as the 1.8ltr VW turbo kit that they prodce (same size anyway.. the bearings seem to be
different)
Might go some way towards sizing. suggestions.
I can't seem to find anything about a T-105.... will keep looking.
Edit... and have just mailed a Garret dealer to find out about the GT15 and GT12.
[Edited on 8/2/05 by nick baker]
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garage19
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| posted on 9/2/05 at 08:52 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by colibriman
haha... Nick..your right it is late....
I know nothing, but am all ears as far as this subject goes....
Doug (Garage19) said that he had tried a T2 (or maybe a T25) but it was too big so wasn't creating enough boost..apparently it was only 5bhp or
so more...
The advice on the T105 came from a guy at Garrett....
I think we could do with Doug coming along to help and put right the rambling here....
Oh DOOOOOUUUUUGGGGGG.....! You there?
[Edited on 6/2/05 by colibriman]
Helloooo,
I did go for a T2 to begine with but the problem was the exhaust housing was too large for the volume of exhaut gas that the engine was producing, and
therefore was not spinning up very well.
I later used a T105 with no problems and probably 2000 miles of hard riding!
Not sure about diesel Garretts having weaker turbine blades to their petrol counterparts?
Although EGT on a N/A car may reach 900 I certainly wouldn't like to run a turbo bike with EGTs of more than 800ish at the most. A relativly
high compression turbo engine requires a fairly rich AFR to aid in cylinder cooling and keep your engine safe.
Some one mentioned using a turbo from a 2ltr Scooby, using the theory that a 1ltr engine turning twice as fast will pump the same amount of air.
I thought this at first too, but unfortunatly it doesn't work like that.
A rough way to explain matching a turbo to an engine is that the turbine housing should be relative to the size of the engine and where you want to
start making boost in the rev range and the compressor side is relative to the amount of horse power you would like to make.
Its kinda a ratio between the two sides.
If you have the right size compressor but also a large turbine housing (eg a 200 1800cc car turbo) you will struggle to create enough exhaust gas to
spin it up.
However at the other extreme, if you have too larger compressor and too small a turbine housing the engine will run into surge where the turbo will be
pumping more air than the engine can physically process.
Since the Bade i have been involved in other turbo builds and we have found that the best turbo to use on a bike engine is.......
an IHI RHB5
These can be found on Diahatsu charade turbos and early Fiat uno turbos.
For the CBR1000 engine i would search out the Uno variant. This should be spot on for 180-200 bhp.
These are great little turbos and have a great range of easily available compressor wheels/housings and turbine housings that are all
interchangeable.
The moral of the story is yes, it took a bit of development time but it is very possible to build a turbocharged bike engine for £250 (sounds like a
familiar book title)
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