gsxrmini
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| posted on 4/9/06 at 09:48 PM |
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mounting engine on its back
hay guys i was looking at the university of aucklands fsae car, on their web site and how they mounted the engine on its back. i was thinking to do
the same in a mini b/c it would free up alot of room and point the exhaust manifold up (more room for a turbo) vs. the zcars kit. i was trying to get
more info but their web site dosn't provide much info have any of u seen this setup? how is the dry sump system hooked up? i was thinking of
welding a small sump on the back of the lower casing. what you guy all think?
auckland fsae car link
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ecosse
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| posted on 5/9/06 at 08:16 AM |
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Its certainly an interesting idea, I would maybe have a concern over engine reliability when used for long periods at that angle (top end and gearbox
lube?) but it obviously works. 
Would be nice to have more info on how they decided it would be okay though, presumably they know what they are doing! 
Cheers
Alex
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Phil.J
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| posted on 5/9/06 at 08:20 AM |
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Not sure what a 'mini b/c' is, but in general you should have no problems as long as:
The oil is scavenged from the lowest point on the engine
The cam cover has a drain back to the lowest point
The gearbox has sufficient oil supply
Not convinced it will give you any advantage though.
Phil
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ecosse
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| posted on 5/9/06 at 08:28 AM |
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They have their own youtube group
http://www.youtube.com/groups_videos?name=FSAE
Some interesting vids
Also lots of info on the forum
http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/frm/f/125607348
Cheers
Alex
Looking at this video it would appear that the engine is mounted the same way as in the bike, not sure if it is a previous version of the car
though
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjCOMqsPpsY
[Edited on 5/9/06 by ecosse]
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gsxrmini
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| posted on 6/9/06 at 12:55 AM |
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-b/c (because)
-ive looked took off the cover on the k4 gsxr engine and the oil drains back where the cam chain is
-i think even when the engine is sitting upright the transmission gear is not sitting in the oil in the pan because if it was, then when you dry sump
bike engine does that mean the tranny is not getting oil?
-i measure the engine if it sat upright vs on its back in the mini and it would able me to move the engine back about three inches and move the
exhaust manifold away from the back of my seat
any bike engine mini have any input on this?
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 6/9/06 at 06:19 PM |
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An interesting idea, but these are my concerns that may or may not all be relevent.
The whole engine is designed to route oil from top to bottom back to the sump so if you drastically change the angle of the engine, then you're
going to need to do a lot of modifications to reclaim all that oil that now doesnt drain by gravity. Some areas like the gearbox / clutch may be
splash fed oil as it works its way back down the engine, so you'd need to ensure this wasnt affected. Even the coolant system is designed to
pump cold water in the bottom and come out the top as this is the most efficient method, so if you change the engine angle then will it still
pump/cool properly?
Also its worth bearing in mind that
a) FSAE teams have a shed load of time and usually money to throw at these things, my old Uni spent well into 5 figure sums just on fuelling /
ignition kit for their FSAE car and spent countless hours on Weber's own dyno (£££) to get the engine setup optimised, and that was 8 years ago.
No doubt someone in this FSAE team would have spent months researching the particular engine oil characteristics and probably done CFD (fluid
dynamics) analysis on it all to make sure it worked, then a lot of money / research into the dry sump system setup and additional oiling that may or
may note be required (eg additional oil spraybars to lubricate the gearbox)
b) Because they are generally well funded, if the FSAE team blow an engine or two whilst perfecting the system, they wouldnt be too concerned. I
assume you would be
c) The engine in the FSAE car only really needs to run for a few miles at a time for testing then whilst competing in the FSAE competition,
there's no telling whether the engine would be happy running like that year on year for thousands of miles.
cheers
Chris
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Minicooper
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| posted on 6/9/06 at 06:37 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by gsxrmini
-b/c (because)
-ive looked took off the cover on the k4 gsxr engine and the oil drains back where the cam chain is
-i think even when the engine is sitting upright the transmission gear is not sitting in the oil in the pan because if it was, then when you dry sump
bike engine does that mean the tranny is not getting oil?
-i measure the engine if it sat upright vs on its back in the mini and it would able me to move the engine back about three inches and move the
exhaust manifold away from the back of my seat
any bike engine mini have any input on this?
The GSXR is a small engine why all this to find three inches you should have a reasonable amount of room behind the seats.
Exhaust wrap and a proper bulkhead will stop the heat and bars between you and the engine will stop it climbing up your back in the event of an rear
end shunt
Cheers
David
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gsxrmini
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| posted on 7/9/06 at 01:11 PM |
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well i guess you guys are right. i did get a hold of the auckland team and they explain what they did to the motor pretty simple. it just that i
already bought the turbo stuff and was afraid that it wouldn't fit. that and i have a 3" roof chop so i kind of wanted as much space as i
can. i did remember reading about a turbo busa mini but couldn't find any pictures to see how much space was between the back of the seat and
turbo. any busa or gixxer mini owners want to give me the measurment from the top of head to the back of the seat?
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Minicooper
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| posted on 7/9/06 at 05:05 PM |
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I have seen the silver turbo hayabusa mini, now I can see why you need the extra space, with the busa one the turbo was sitting virtually in the gap
between the seats, and it had no bulkhead
The busa zcars minis have the head virtually touching the back of the seat, if your tall it will be a squeeze to get in
Are you building the whole thing yourself?
Cheers
David
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gsxrmini
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| posted on 8/9/06 at 01:51 AM |
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yes i am building this mini myself. its been on and off again for two years now due to work but in about less then two months i will have a break so i
could work on my mini full time. then it should go buy pretty quick
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Minicooper
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| posted on 8/9/06 at 12:32 PM |
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Have you thought about using the same system as the autograss boys do.
It would leave you with masses of room behind the seats, obviously it means the bike engine being right at the back of the car, but as it's
fairly light should be workable
They have used a similiar system on the smart car bike conversion
The engine is behind the axle and the chain drives forward, so the differential is at the front of the engine not behind it as normal, also gives the
option of upgrading the chain to a stronger 630 version and also keeps the chain long which helps in these more powerful bike engined conversion
Cheers
David
[Edited on 8/9/06 by Minicooper]
 
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gsxrmini
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| posted on 8/9/06 at 05:48 PM |
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wow thats the first time ive seen this setup thanks for showing me this. but how does it handle vs. mounting it the regular way like zcars. well i
think im going to have a custom turbo manifold made to set the turbo to the side of the engine. i really would like the car to handle more than
anything.
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Minicooper
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| posted on 8/9/06 at 07:02 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by gsxrmini
wow thats the first time ive seen this setup thanks for showing me this. but how does it handle vs. mounting it the regular way like zcars. well i
think im going to have a custom turbo manifold made to set the turbo to the side of the engine. i really would like the car to handle more than
anything.
Ultimately moving the engine right back will affect the handling, but because it's a light motor I believe the difference wouldn't be that
much
Making any bike engined mini handle really well, seems to be a problem, mostly to do with driving the rear wheels through the very short wheelbase I
think
I'm trying a different system for my mini a 6 link de dion, I like the de dion it has worked for me very well in the past
Cheers
David
 
Rescued attachment DSCF0067.JPG
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gsxrmini
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| posted on 8/9/06 at 09:50 PM |
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thats cool!!! i was thinking about a de dion rear that or a twin a arm rear dont know yet? still working on the mould for the body. you have any more
pictures of your mini?
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welderman
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| posted on 8/9/06 at 10:36 PM |
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Just seen this topic, my build is in the mid engine section.
Mini Build. Take a look you might get some ideas.
Minicooper man yours is looking good there mate.
Joe
Bloody hell just looked at the build date. ONE YEAR ON EXACTLY.
[Edited on 8/9/06 by welderman]
Thank's, Joe 
I don't stalk people
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/23/viewthread.php?tid=172301
Back on with the Fisher Fury R1
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welderman
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| posted on 8/9/06 at 10:37 PM |
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pic
 
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Thank's, Joe
I don't stalk people
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/23/viewthread.php?tid=172301
Back on with the Fisher Fury R1
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