MikeR
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| posted on 10/3/10 at 12:50 PM |
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So i'm making up my cage and after reading the MSA blue book i've got some questions.....
My tube is CDS, 47ishmm (1/78" ) 2.5mm wall. Its welded to the top of the 4" plates on the ron champion style chassis.
My questions are ....
one end of the diagonal inside the roll hoop. It must be max 4" (100mm) from the roll hoop mounting on the chassis. Is that the whole tube, the
middle of the tube or just any part of the tube?
The other end of the diagonal that goes by the drivers head - lots of people seem to weld it to the vertical part of the roll hoop - why isn't
it put right into the corner? Is it easier to weld on the veritcal or are people worried about the heat of welding on the bent bit of tube?
The rear stays need to "attach near the roof line" and "near outer bends". I can't find a specified distance. How far
can i inset them? is there any benefit?
The rear stays also need to be within 100mm of the diagonal in the hoop - how is this measured? if i have a 4" bit of wood and that touches both
tubes at some point is that close enough? What about if they touch via angles 6" away from the actual roll hoop is that good enough?
finally (for now). I've not seen a racing seven with its seat belt mounts on the roll hoop - i've not read this being disallowed, is it?
Is there any issue mounting the seat belts inside a bit of 3mm box welded to the back of a CDS tube (the idea being to move the bolt hole for the
mounting the belt away from the diagonal tube to make sure it doesn't interfere).
Pictures can be badly drawn in paint if required.
[Edited on 10/3/10 by MikeR]
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loggyboy
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| posted on 15/4/10 at 11:08 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by procomp
And yes the scrutineers are cracking down on it as has been seen with the majority of MK rollcages being refused at race meetings.
Cheers Matt
Could you confirm why MKs cages dont comply? is it the style or components/finish?
as u can see from my avatar, its that style og cage i liked, and was hoping to have Raw make up
[Edited on 15/4/10 by loggyboy]
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alistairolsen
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| posted on 15/4/10 at 11:56 AM |
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I believe the curved top longitudinals are an issue, as are the curved a pillar bars.
My Build Thread
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loggyboy
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| posted on 15/4/10 at 08:12 PM |
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Does it have a double kink in the Front roll car then?
Cant see anything in the regs that says the 'longitudinal' or 'additional reinforcement bars' should be straight.
Anyone confirm?
[Edited on 15/4/10 by loggyboy]
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paulW7
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| posted on 15/4/10 at 09:56 PM |
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Looks good to me, I can't see any insistence on these bars being straight in the blue book.
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procomp
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| posted on 19/4/10 at 09:40 AM |
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Hi
Technical Specifications
8. The front leg of a front or lateral rollbar must be
straight, or if this is not possible, must follow the
windscreen pillars and have only one bend with its
lower vertical part. Where the main rollbar forms the
rear legs of a lateral rollbar (see illustration Appendix 2,
drawing 6), the connection to the lateral rollbar must be
at roof level.
Neither the front legs or the roof bars comply with the regulations hence some cars have been made to change the roll cages. They DO NOT meet the very
basic regulations.
Cheers Matt
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loggyboy
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| posted on 19/4/10 at 12:43 PM |
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I can completely understand the front bar, (although only one bend is clear from external pics, I'm guessing it kinks again once inside the
car). I plan to have mine running externally, at an angle running down but with no kink at all.
However I cant seen any justification behind not allow the kink in the upper bar, I cant see any mention in the regs stating it has to be straight.
Would be interesting to hear their reasoning behind it (if that is what it was being refused on aswell as the double kink in the front rollbar).
[Edited on 19/4/10 by loggyboy]
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procomp
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| posted on 19/4/10 at 02:23 PM |
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Hi.
Is the MK roll cage certificated. NO. So therefore it has to comply with the FIA/MSA drawings. Do the drawings show bends in the roof bars. NO its
that simple.
Cheers Matt
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loggyboy
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| posted on 19/4/10 at 09:27 PM |
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Not that I want to get in to an argument with you as you clearly have more experience with me.
However, its clear the diagrams are there for guidance, its obvious they are based around tintop layouts for a start. The words are the absolute
instructions IMO.
You yourself have quoted the text and the only bits that MUST be straight are:
[quotebluebook]The vertical part of the main rollbar
must be as straight as possible and as close as
possible to the interior contour of the bodyshell. The
front leg of a front rollbar or a lateral rollbar must be
straight, or if it is not possible, must follow the
windscreen pillars and have only one bend with its
lower vertical part.
For example. Despite the main Diagrams showing the rear bar being a 'square' withi no bends, Diag 38 shows a main roll bar being bent
twice around the shape of the car as the words state only the top vertical must be straight.
[Edited on 19/4/10 by loggyboy]
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loggyboy
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| posted on 19/4/10 at 09:34 PM |
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NEWS FLASH. 
Just found the diagram and words that show the top bars can be bent 
 
Rescued attachment RollcageMSA.jpg
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minitici
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| posted on 20/4/10 at 04:00 PM |
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Remember that the MSA don't necessarily require a full roll cage for most speed events. - The MINIMUM is a roll bar with diagonal brace and two
rear facing braces complying with the respective drawing in the "Blue Book'. The diameter and wall thickness and material grade are also
specified.
The front cage and side/roof bars are therefore 'optional' and need not totally comply with the other MSA technical drawings (only the
pickiest scrutes are likely to moan  )
I do like a bit of scute baiting in the morning 
However IMHO a full cage is really a necessity.
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loggyboy
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| posted on 20/4/10 at 07:24 PM |
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This is what made my mind up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFkw0gxmsUk
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procomp
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| posted on 21/4/10 at 10:38 PM |
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Hi
The problem is that the roof bars have a limit to how much of a bend they can have. As can be seen from the picture you have posted above it is not
really a large bend. The bends that the MK rollcages have do not comply with the FIA/MSA regulations. Which is why the MSA scrutineers have excluded
at least 5 cars fitted with those cages.
If you want to take issue with the regulations then i would suggest contacting the FIA as the UK runs under FIA ROPS regulations these days not MSA
regulations. ROPS is quite a technical area of the regulations these days which is why the FIA/MSA invited all car manufacturers competing in the UK
to a ROPS meeting a few years ago. Of course non of the kitcar manufacturers bothered to turn up except one. Which is why we now have a situation
where virtually all kit car manufacturers are now fitting and supplying non compliant rollcages /roll bars for use under MSA/FIA regulations.
Cheers Matt
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Nick DV
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| posted on 1/5/10 at 10:11 AM |
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Hi Matt, have sent a mail to Procomp re rollcage (didn't want to hijack this thread) but not sure if it delivered! Would you mind checking for
me please,
Cheers, Nick
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Nick DV
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| posted on 9/5/10 at 04:07 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by procomp
Hi
The problem is that the roof bars have a limit to how much of a bend they can have. As can be seen from the picture you have posted above it is not
really a large bend. The bends that the MK rollcages have do not comply with the FIA/MSA regulations. Which is why the MSA scrutineers have excluded
at least 5 cars fitted with those cages.
If you want to take issue with the regulations then i would suggest contacting the FIA as the UK runs under FIA ROPS regulations these days not MSA
regulations. ROPS is quite a technical area of the regulations these days which is why the FIA/MSA invited all car manufacturers competing in the UK
to a ROPS meeting a few years ago. Of course non of the kitcar manufacturers bothered to turn up except one. Which is why we now have a situation
where virtually all kit car manufacturers are now fitting and supplying non compliant rollcages /roll bars for use under MSA/FIA regulations.
Cheers Matt
Matt, having read through this I understand what you are saying about MSA scrutineers stopping cars from racing. I have also looked at the current
blue book regs and it all seems a bit wooly, and I don't understand how they can stop cars racing when their own literature is not that
exact.
That aside, what is the bottem line here? I have seen hundreds of race cars, inc. kit cars with all manner of roll hoops and cages at the various race
meetings I go to. I have not seen or heard of any of them being stopped from competeing by the scrutineers - I was recently at C/Combe and some of the
cars racing there would not have conformed with what you state. Surely if the MSA start enforcing the rule that every cage has to be certificated,
then there would be hundreds of racers having to either spend a lot of money to retro fit their cars with the correct kit or they would just have to
stop racing!
I hope I haven't missed the point, just need to understand what's going on
Cheers, Nick
"The force will be with you, always!"
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B120WNY
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| posted on 9/6/10 at 03:59 PM |
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Im getting myself a rollcage with my Mac Type 9. Hope thats up to spec!
I like it as it has some side impact protection too.
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procomp
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| posted on 28/6/10 at 07:05 PM |
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Hi
For those that where suggesting Via various U2U and emails that i was talking rubbish ( to put it politely ) regarding the conformity of the MK and
MNR rollcage designs. well the FIA/MSA have issued in there latest news update what is acceptable regarding the bends in the front of rollcage
designs.
http://e2ma.net/go/8399547049/2908145/95956524/2971/goto:http://www.msauk.org/uploadedfiles/newsletter/MSA_News_03_0610.pdf
 
Description
[/img]
ROPS
Competitors are advised that the front
legs of front hoops or lateral rollbars
must be straight or, at most, be ‘pulled’
slightly so as to fit the profiles of vehicle
bodyshells. S-bends, such as shown in
the image above, are not acceptable.
So all in all that makes any Mk or MNR taking part in competition under FIA/MSA regulations non compliant. 
Cheers Matt
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franky
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| posted on 28/6/10 at 09:15 PM |
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Will they actually stop people entering though? There must be quite a few of them on the grid?
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paulW7
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| posted on 28/6/10 at 11:04 PM |
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Yes. Having just had a roll cage fitted to my Striker, I was discussing the topic with a colleague, who races an MK indy. He had to replace the front
hoop with one that had straight front legs. He also replaced the top bars with straight bars and a diagonal, although I think this was done more to
ensure it got through on re-test rather than take the risk and have more re-work to do.
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marc n
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| posted on 29/6/10 at 09:14 AM |
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quote:
So all in all that makes any Mk or MNR taking part in competition under FIA/MSA regulations non compliant.
cant speak for mk but we have three cage designs approved :-)
cheers
marc
please email rather than u2u
direct workshop email ( manned 8am till 6pm )
www.mnrltd.co.uk enquireys to :-
chrismnrltd@btinternet.com
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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sucksqueezebangblow
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| posted on 29/6/10 at 10:27 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by procomp
So all in all that makes any Mk or MNR taking part in competition under FIA/MSA regulations non compliant.
Cheers Matt
That is a swaithing statement to make without being absolutely sure of your facts. Would you be happy for other traders to make similar statements
about your products and services without the facts? I'm very surprised that as a trader you arn't being much more careful and accurate in
your statements!
Better to Burnout than to Fade Away JET METAL ~ AndySparrow © 
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procomp
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| posted on 29/6/10 at 01:30 PM |
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Hi
" That is a swathing statement to make "
OK lets cut through the BS here.
Do both the Mk and MNR front rollcage hoops have an S bend in them. Well all of the Mk ones i have seen certainly do.( which is why at least 6 cars
have been refused race entry due to illegal rollcages) And the 4 MNR cars competing under MSA that i have seen do also.
Do the MK and MNR rollcages differ from the drawing in the FIA/MSA technical drawings. Yes they do.
So what does that then mean. Well it means that both rollcages will have to have been put forward for full FIA testing which includes the chassis and
rollcage structures. If they have done so then the rollcages WILL be carrying ROPS labels on them and the drivers of the cars which have the rollcages
fitted will have a copy of the FIA certification to present to the scrutineers.
Now do any of the MK or MNR rollcages fitted carry the ROPS labels and are the drivers of the cars in possession of the FIA certification paper work.
?
As for quoting that the rollcages are MSA approved. Well there is no such thing as MSA approved. All ROPS falls under FIA regulations there is no MSA
regulations or approval.
Cheers Matt
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coozer
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| posted on 29/6/10 at 01:44 PM |
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Does any of this apply to purely road based cars? maybe with 1 or 2 track days here and there?
Also if I am to add the front hoop and stays to my 'approved' rear bar does the then said rear roll bar become illegal?
Can someone tell me when the blue book and MSA or ROPS or whatever apply?
Steve
(Currently building a full cage)
1972 V8 Jago
1980 Z750
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procomp
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| posted on 29/6/10 at 02:04 PM |
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Hi
For pure road use it doesn't matter one bit. Well as long as your happy with the design you are using.
Track Days. Mmm well as it stands only a few organisers are insisting on FIA/MSA design rollcages or full FIA ROPS. But this will increase over the
years as insurers will be wanting safety issues brought more in line with what the FIA/MSA use for racing on circuit. Although it will be many years
away before all organisers will insist on full compliance.
Cheers Matt
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loggyboy
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| posted on 29/6/10 at 02:34 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by procomp
So all in all that makes any Mk or MNR taking part in competition under FIA/MSA regulations non compliant.
That does tend to be rather broadbrush.
I think it would be fairer to simply say that MK and MNR bars that have more than one kink in them dont comply. Im sure MNR and MK have redesigned
their cages (or are in the process of doing so) or their customers would soon be banging on their doors asking for one.
I appreciate you're keen to promote your cages as being pre approved, but it seems quite arrogant to assume that everyone should have a
preapproved cage and that anything that is 'merely' MSA compliant should be fround upon.
quote:
Originally posted by procomp
As for quoting that the rollcages are MSA approved. Well there is no such thing as MSA approved. All ROPS falls under FIA regulations there is no MSA
regulations or approval.
Again, rather a sweeping statement. The MSA is the FIA in the UK - to quote them: The Motor Sports Association (MSA) is recognised as the sole
motor sport governing body for the United Kingdom by the world governing body, the Federation Internationale de L'Automobile (FIA).
Therefore a rollcage that complies with the Blue book (the MSA regulations) is instantly approved by the MSA/FIA as its their own guidelines. If this
was not the case the Bluebook would be redundant and pointless.
[Edited on 29/6/10 by loggyboy]
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