coyoteboy
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| posted on 2/7/12 at 09:22 AM |
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Interestingly I have towed a 1.5 ton trailer without a damper on the brakes, or auto-reverse, and it functions to this day just fine. It does have a
tendency to lock the trailer brakes on hard braking but only for a second or so. The lack of auto-reverse has never been a problem as there's
sufficient friction in the coupling that even over mildly rough ground the brake never actuates.
But if I were designing one from scratch and putting my name as an engineer to it, with knowledge of current regulations, I'd be a fool not to
follow the regs. You're going to have to be careful not to fall down the "a little knowledge" pothole here.
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Oddified
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| posted on 2/7/12 at 09:49 AM |
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The other grey area in the 'A' frame debate is the year that the trailer regs came in, which if i remember is 1982 or 1984 (somewhere
there any way). If the car(or trailer depending on your view) being towed is older than that....does any of it count
Prior to those regs coming in it was just if a trailer is over 750kg it needs working brakes.
If i'm going to a rwyb for a weekend i pull my Kitten (1976) behind my motorhome with an A frame, never had a problem and never been pulled
over.
The kitten's under 750kg and older than the current regs, and that's the defence i'd use if i was ever pulled by plod.
Ian
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gunman
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| posted on 2/7/12 at 10:17 AM |
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I cant see the age of the car mattering one jot to be honest. That is the manufacture date of the car, not the trailer. When did the car become a
trailer? Most likely when you attached your A frame.
If you're saying a car becomes a trailer when towed on an A frame then it wasn't a trailer until you attach it. If you took a big steel
box made in 1976 and attach wheels and a drawbar it doesnt mean it's a trailer manufactured in 1976.
I too have towed cars on an A frame but have accepted that it's not strictly legal and taken the chance. Does a twin axle trailer not have to
be braked equally between it's axles? A car isn't equally braked.
I dont think the arguement that it's neither illegal or legal stands up. It either meets legal requirements or it doesnt!
I cant even fit my a A frame to my kit car as it doesnt clear the steering rack arms anyway .
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 2/7/12 at 10:51 AM |
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See if it were a TRAILER rather than an A frame, no-one would bat an eyelid at you as they'd assume it all complied. If it's an A frame
the police will look at it as a recovery device and raise questions. Theyre bad news all round.
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Oddified
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| posted on 2/7/12 at 11:09 AM |
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Which ever way any one wants to look at them, if there was a definitve 'they're illegal' then no one would use them and if they did
they would have been some prosecutions. As it is no ones ever been prosecuted or a case taken to court which suggests that there's no clear cut
yes or no.
I'll use mine until there is 
Ian
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gunman
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| posted on 2/7/12 at 12:30 PM |
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There doesnt have to be (nor can there be) a definitive They are illegal\illegal as there are too many variables from case to case. As I see it the
fact stands that if you use them and your 'Trailer' is road legal than it is legal, if it isn't then you're not! If you build
a trailer in your back garden and use it on the road it has to meet legal requirements, as does the trailer you make when you attach an A frame.
Police don't go round pulling in trailers evry time they see one to check legality either, that doesnt mean they are legal. I would be more
concernedof being involved in an accident while towing with a trailer which wasn't 100% legal than I would the police stopping me. An insurance
company trying to get out of a big payout will start digging more than any roadside police officer. As said tho, I've done it before and most
likely will again, I'm not saying A frames shouldn't be used but question whether they are 100% legal (in most cases of use).
I think most kit cars would be grand (if you can get your A frame to fit) as they will be below the weight limit for unbraked trailers. That being
said, your unbraked trailer cant be more than 50% the weight of your tow vechile, so if that's 1100kg then maybe not!
There are too many variables for it to be clear cut, but the law will stand as to what is a legal trailer and what isn't.
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 2/7/12 at 12:55 PM |
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quote:
Which ever way any one wants to look at them, if there was a definitve 'they're illegal' then no one would use them and if they did
they would have been some prosecutions. As it is no ones ever been prosecuted or a case taken to court which suggests that there's no clear cut
yes or no. I'll use mine until there is
The only time it'll get called into question is if you do something else wrong or have an accident in which it's considered to be
contributory in some way. But that's generally out of your own hands.
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vanepico
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| posted on 3/7/12 at 09:57 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by balidey
As for the OP's project.
I too like to make things, but this is a safety critical item. I would not be happy making a towing dolley. You could design it to pull the weight of
the car, but what G loads are you going to put in? What FOS are you going to use? If you have an accident you would be in major trouble. My brother in
law had one of his chains snap on his a frame whilst towing. He managed to explain that there must have been a defect in the chain link, but if it had
been a home made A frame then I'm sure he would not have got away with it.
Seriously, £200 is not a lot to spend in one.
I'm sorry but safety critical item? On a forum devoted to making 300bhp/ton vehicles with home made welds and the only inspection is some bloke
from the government looking at the brake lines and where the lights point
And for Gs and factor of safety look at the OP it is all there..........
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bi22le
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| posted on 3/7/12 at 10:42 PM |
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Why not make your car break down and then A frame it?
If you get pulled over then tell them your recovering it. You could tell them its blown or has an electrical problem and wont start.
I could just remove my immobaliser fob and try to start it. Many an AA man has been called out and recovered cars due to dodgey alarms.
Gets round all your issues and arguments.
Track days ARE the best thing since sliced bread, until I get a supercharger that is!
Please read my ring story:
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/13/viewthread.php?tid=139152&page=1
Me doing a sub 56sec lap around Brands Indy. I need a geo set up! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHksfvIGB3I
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vanepico
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| posted on 4/7/12 at 12:04 AM |
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Yeah, the only problem I had visions of using this to get a donor car, and most donor cars do not have mot or tax so it would be hard to say
"well it broke down as soon as the MOT and tax ran out simultaneously" xD
I don't think this would be any more unsafe than if the towball broke on a 1100kg trailer, they are rigged to pull the brakes on so they do not
roll out of control and considering I'm using a FOS of 5 with way over the odds forces to begin with, and at the very thinnest section is
40mmx40mmx3mm mild steel. Which from my maths would take over 28kN to reach 1/5th of it's ultimate tensile strength.
And for every square meter of mild steel it takes 300 million newtons to take it up to it's ultimate tensile strength!
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 4/7/12 at 01:39 PM |
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So, just going back a bit - what's wrong with paying £50 to rent a legal trailer for half a day? I recently paid £60 for a chap to transport my
tin top from storage to my house 30 miles away including him, his fuel and trailer use. Is this because you need the heavy trailer license to tow a
heavy vehicle?
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vanepico
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| posted on 4/7/12 at 02:41 PM |
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I come from a long line of engineers in my family. My Grandad actually made a washing machine and a fridge back when they were new concepts and
incredibly expensive. To my knowledge my dad never did any appliances like that but if he ever needed anything, instead of paying well over the odds
for £50 worth of materials it is a lot more satisfying to have designed and made your own device instead of parting with hard earned cash that you
could spend on something else. It is a mindset that has always been in my family and I would not have it any other way.
When ever I say "I fancy building a....." My mother always points out how similar I am to my grandad 
If you have designed and built something you can be proud of it, you can even put it on your CV, it is practical proof that you can design and build
something to a specification.
As it is with this I would need my dad to tow it if the weight with a large car would go over the max 750kg limit for persons who pass their test
after July 1997 but it is mainly so that I have some piece of mind that once I get my kit car chassis it won't just become a massive immovable
object, I will be able to transport it behind a car, until it is finished.
[Edited on 4/7/12 by vanepico]
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 4/7/12 at 04:27 PM |
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quote:
I come from a long line of engineers in my family. My Grandad actually made a washing machine and a fridge back when they were new concepts and
incredibly expensive. To my knowledge my dad never did any appliances like that but if he ever needed anything, instead of paying well over the odds
for £50 worth of materials it is a lot more satisfying to have designed and made your own device instead of parting with hard earned cash that you
could spend on something else. It is a mindset that has always been in my family and I would not have it any other way.
Snap, I do it for a living too now. But I know my limits too. If you have the time and knowledge to spend doing it properly that's fine, but if
you're going to start cutting corners or trying to read around the rules to suit you it's less fine, you need to know your limits and the
reasoning behind the rules. At the end of the day it doesn't matter how you argue your point, unless you're a chartered experienced
engineer your point won't hold sway if there's an accident involving what you made. What's more, because you made it you're
now responsible for it. Plus I suppose my time is worth considerably more than a £50 hire so I guess that taints my view a little but the 20 year old
me would kick me in the head for saying that.
Unfortunately we're passing through and out of the time where joe bloggs the "DIY engineer" could have a go at things used in real
life, it's a major problem we have at university level with students really wanting to be able to be taught how to manufacture things but the
tools are simply too expensive and too dangerous to let them near without heavy investment in training. Catch 22, but it doesn't make it right
to just let them on the machines and hope. There's a reason standards exist, there's a reason qualifications exist, it's because
despite how much of an intuitive engineer you are, you don't know everything!
quote:
As it is with this I would need my dad to tow it if the weight with a large car would go over the max 750kg limit for persons who pass their
test after July 1997 but it is mainly so that I have some piece of mind that once I get my kit car chassis it won't just become a massive
immovable object, I will be able to transport it behind a car, until it is finished.
Just out of interest, how often do you expect to be transporting it before it's finished 
Just to add, I'm not trying to put you off - just wanting you to ensure you comply with all regulations and do it safely. Plus realise
it's far from financially sane.
[Edited on 4/7/12 by coyoteboy]
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vanepico
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| posted on 18/7/12 at 06:18 PM |
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Here's an update straight from the horses mouth, no hearsay and no speculation.
quote:
Dear Mr Savage
Thank you for your email of 6 July to the Department for Transport concerning your project on making an A-Frame for the safe transportation of
vehicles. This has been subsequently forwarded to the International Vehicle & Standards Division as we have policy responsibility for vehicle
safety and as such I have been asked to reply
Our view is that for the purpose of the Road Vehicles Construction and Use Regulations 1986 (C&U) which must be met by all vehicles used and
registered in the UK, vehicles towed using an A-Frame can be treated as a trailer when determining the applicable technical requirements. However,
separate legislation applies to the taxation of the vehicle and this will continue to apply, ie any vehicle would need to be correctly taxed and
insured.
UN Regulation 13 applies if a manufacturer intends to approve a trailer for sale throughout Europe. It is not possible to approve an A-Frame as a
trailer instead the national requirements in each member state apply ie in the UK C&U. It is our understanding that this permits an inertia
overrun device. However, please see attached information sheet on the need to energise any vacuum on the vehicle and as you mention the need to
disengage the system when reversing.
I hope this information has been helpful.
Yours sincerely
Fran Simpson
MY ORIGINAL MESSAGE:
quote:
Dear,
I am looking to make a car towing A-frame for the safe transportation of vehicles. The sentences written on the direct.gov.uk website imply that the
towed vehicle does not need to be ‘roadworthy’ i.e without MOT or TAX because it says
“If you attach an A-frame to a car in order to tow it with a larger vehicle, the car plus A-frame counts as a trailer.”
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/CaravansTrailersCommercialVehicles/DG_192285
as long as it holds up to the trailer safety regulations, with braking and lighting, and visible towing vehicle’s number plate.
Another problem I have run into is the braking legislation for trailers (vehicle + A frame) in excess of 750kg. In this information page from the
Department of Transport dated September 2011:
http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/dft-information-sheets/a-frames-and-dollies.pdf
It mentions that the usage of an overrun system (the force of the trailer pushing on the towing vehicle used to actuate the brakes) Is acceptable for
braking however there is a regulation under the name of UNECE Regulation 13 on the subject which is dated some time in 2008 showing the following:
“5.2.2.2. Trailers of category O2 shall be equipped with a service braking system either of the continuous or semi-continuous or of the inertia
(overrun) type. The latter type shall be permitted only for centre axle trailers. However, electrical braking systems conforming to the
requirements of Annex 14 to this Regulation shall be permitted.”
http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/r013r6e.pdf
It looks to me as if the bold part of the regulation has been put in purposefully to disallow the towing of vehicles on A frames because they do not
seem to be classed as ‘centre axle trailers’ and from what I can tell they are the only case where a trailer would not be centre axle, bar an HGV
trailer. I was wondering does this regulation apply to us in the UK? I found a page on a .ie site that refers to a slightly different version of this
regulation. The letter is dated june 2011.
“O2 trailers will be required to be fitted with semi-continuous or inertia (overrun) brakes. Any such inertia (overrun) type brakes shall allow the
trailer to be reversed with minimum drag and must work automatically in reverse and disengage automatically in the forward direction.”
http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Vehicle%20Std%20Leg/Information%20Notes/Stakeholder%20Information%20Note%20on%20Braking%20Amendments.pdf
I understand that it is required to be able to allow the vehicle to reverse without resistance and provide some damping to avoid harsh braking
scenarios.
I deeply thank you for any light you can shed on these incoherencies in different regulations,
Peter Savage
So regulation 13 only applies when a trailer is being manufactured, to bypass having to certify in each european country. C&U regulations apply on
purely UK based usage.
From their depiction the vehicle being towed needs to be taxed and MOT'd but not a major problem. So I need to find a way of topping up the
vacuum system if applicable, which could also be a solution to the auto reverse system
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 18/7/12 at 07:03 PM |
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Still means that your vehicle needs to be taxed and insured, which means the car needs to be MOT'd.
You intend to use it to transport your car while it's not complete - so you'll struggle to MOT it and MOTing it before IVA will prove
difficult too?
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vanepico
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| posted on 18/7/12 at 08:34 PM |
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If a car is not registered yet, then it isn't a car. It is a tubular frame with 4 wheels attached to an A frame. Once it is finished then it
would be taxed and insured, then it can be towed.
If I were to get a sierra that was not an MOT failure and had tax I could tow it.
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owelly
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| posted on 18/7/12 at 09:22 PM |
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The term 'motor vehicle' is defined in section 185(1) of the Road Traffic Act 1988 and section 136(1) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act
1984 as "a mechanically propelled vehicle, intended or adapted for use on roads".
A couple of cases and stuff here: http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/road_traffic_offences/#definition
A guy up the road from me went to court to appeal a conviction for keeping a vehicle on the road (although technically, it wasn't on the road
but was still in a public place) with no tax, test or insurance. His agument was that as the car had no engine, it was no longer a road vehicle. The
judge took a dim view of this and said something along the lines of: "to any man, it looks like a motor vehicle. It is intended to be used on
the road therefore it's a motor vehicle".
The guy up the road got the book thrown at him for just about everything they could drag up.
As has been said many times on here, if you want to chance it, go ahead. But lets hope the judge isn't a Locoster..... 
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
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