paublo999
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 08:15 AM |
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ZZR14 ZX10/12 Speed Sensor Help?
Hi all,
Me again, still with my low rev limit problem on my ZZR1400. I can get to 9800rpm in any gear including neutral. I purchased a GI-Pro thinking I could
set it to 4th gear, but this had no effect. Logic being 186mph (electronic limit) could equate to 9800rpm in 6th gear.
I believe I am making some progress, the wiring when "done" in the car has been cut back to the absolute minimum with the diagnostic plug
being cut off  and speed sensor being left open circuit. Who knows what else I will find, but one problem at a time. The circuit is a pretty simple
one with a neutral, Blue/Yellow wire going from the speed sensor to the ecu and also to the clocks, a pink wire completes the circuit from the clocks
to the speed sensor.
I was wondering if there are any Kawasaki ZZR or ZX builders out there who are not using the standard clocks and how they wired the ecu feed for the
speed sensor.
The service manual has the following which could be my problem -
Error code 24 Speed Sensor
Speed sensor must send 4 signals (output signal) to the ECU at the one rotation of the drive shaft.
If the speed sensor system fails (no signal, wiring short or open), the speedometer shows 0.
Signal - 4.5v ~ 4.9v (when detecting a pulse) or 0.05 ~ 0.09v (when not)
Error code 25 Gear Position Switch
Gear Position Switch Output Voltage (signal) Vg = 0.2 ~ 4.8 V
If the speed sensor system fails (no signal, wiring short or open), the ECU set the top (6) gear position.
I have proven that I have an open speed sensor circuit, the question is how best to fool the ECU into thinking it is ok and releasing me from 6th
gear.
I could try to source another speed sensor as it has been completely removed, but there is nowhere to mount it due to the propshaft requiring the
cover to be removed. I assume this has to be done for all BEC conversions with this engine?
Any suggestions, do I just wire up a replacement speed sensor and leave it taped up under the dash or could I just get reduce the voltage via a
resistor or diode down to say 4.8 volts and this will be enough. The ECU would be in circuit but doing 0mph the whole time? Would this be enough or do
I need to rig up a speed sensor somewhere?
From the manua again -
Speed Sensor voltages:
Input at Sensor About DC 9 ~ 11 V at Ignition Switch ON
Output at Sensor About DC 0.05 ~ 0.09 V or DC 4.5 ~ 4.9 at Ignition Switch ON and 0 km/h
Any help much appreciated, both from BEC owners who have worked around this problem and also any basic electronic help to get me down from 12v down to
a fixed voltate in the range above. Not very good with the whole amps/voltage thing and cant afford to blow my ECU up.. 
Also, if anyone has a circuit or diagram on how to put an LED replacing the FI/error light on the standard clocks on my dash that would be a big help
Cheers
Paul.
edit was to remove strange HTML characters..
[Edited on 30/3/09 by paublo999]
My videos http://www.youtube.com/user/ninjabogeyracing
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minitici
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 10:55 AM |
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Hi Paul,
The original speed sensor was indeed picking up pulses from the square (4 lobe) inner portion of the sprocket nut.
I can see that this cannot be used with a propshaft.
I suspect it should be possible to rig up a compatible sensor and pick up on the propshaft bolts.
A speedo healer could then be used to adjust the speedo readings to below the 6th gear rev limit threshhold.
I don't think wiring the Fi warning light will be too much help as the fault codes are displayed on the LCD screen rather than by a series of
flashes of the LED.
The led would illuminate to show you have a fault but that is all.
Doug.
[Edited on 30/3/09 by minitici]
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paublo999
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 11:39 AM |
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Cheers Doug,
I am going to try a constant 4.7v feed to the ECU tonight and see if it is happy to run with the equivalent of a 0mph feed.
Anyone with a ZZR14 with a prop install sorted this? The ZX10 service manual that I found has the same voltage ranges but I am not sure where the
sensor is installed.
Cheers
Paul
My videos http://www.youtube.com/user/ninjabogeyracing
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Moorron
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 12:15 PM |
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Hi mate i wouldnt send a constant 4.7v to the ecu, what i would do is buy the original speed sensor, hook it up to the ecu (simple) and then get it
working off the prop. You shouldnt have to use a speed healer as long as you dont mind it limited in 6th only.
Ive been reading lots of stuff on my ZX12 engine and ecu and its much more complex than i first thought. Take the fuel maps, i thought they were the
same in every gear except an ignition retard in the first few to stop you falling off the bike but looking at it deeper shows its got a fuel map for
every gear. I will try and find the link to the website i found that info on where the guy has taken the ecu apart later on tonight.
Sorry about my spelling, im an engineer and only work in numbers.
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paublo999
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 12:27 PM |
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I was going down the constant voltage route as I dont have clocks and or the sensor and havent been able to source one.
I have a power commander and it was mapped albeit up to 9800rpm so the fueling is superseeded.
The wiring diagram shows three wires, 1 to ground, 1 sensor to ecu and to clocks, then one back from the clocks to the sensor. My first question is
are the clocks completely passive?
Next, as for hooking the sensor up to the prop, would the speeds of rotation not be different - the original speed sensor output must be multiplied by
the gear number to get a result as it is engine rotation rather than prop, so not sure if I would be any better off?
EDIT - just re-read Dougs post - this may be ok as it was the sprocket output... doh!
Not to settle for less than perfect running, but I will be completely chuffed it I can just get the revs back allowing me to use peak power. The
engine is running really well and outputting peak power @ 162bhp at the rear wheel.
Probably going to give the constant voltage a go... unless someone thinks I can damage it?
Cheers
Paul
[Edited on 30/3/09 by paublo999]
My videos http://www.youtube.com/user/ninjabogeyracing
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minitici
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 12:35 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by paublo999
The wiring diagram shows three wires, 1 to ground, 1 sensor to ecu and to clocks, then one back from the clocks to the sensor. My first question is
are the clocks completely passive?
Hi Paul, On the Radical I just connected the speed sensor supply wire (pink) to a switched +12V feed and this runs the standard speed sensor OK.
We do not have the clocks fitted - this appears to be the only sensor which takes a power feed via the clocks.
Doug.
[Edited on 30/3/09 by minitici]
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paublo999
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 12:42 PM |
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Hi Doug,
I was hoping that was the case, will have a pop tonight at the fixed voltage and see how I get on. Meanwhile I will try to source a speed sensor from
a breaker for plan B
Cheers guys much appreciated
Paul.
My videos http://www.youtube.com/user/ninjabogeyracing
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Moorron
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 01:10 PM |
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The Zx12 speed sensor takes its 12v feed from the clocks so yes, having no clock only means you need to connect the power feed of the sensor to a 12v
ignition and things will be ok.
Yes the ratios will be different as you are going thru a diff now but to be honest it will only mean your top speed will be lower by 10mph and i
havent hit the limiter in mine yet.
Sorry about my spelling, im an engineer and only work in numbers.
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paublo999
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 03:58 PM |
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Hi Moorron,
Thanks for that.
£68 for a speed sensor so the Aberdonian in me has decided to try the fixed voltage maplin approach first 
The local bike dealer said that Kawasaki doesnt even have one in the uk and will be atleast 10 days to get one from Belguim. So will give it a shot
before ordering.
Will keep you all updated on my progress. Why oh why did they chop the loom!
Paul.
My videos http://www.youtube.com/user/ninjabogeyracing
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rf900rush
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| posted on 30/3/09 at 08:30 PM |
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I found these links on the ZX12R ECU's
Most info for the 16bit ECU's 2000-2003ish
Mines a 2005 (B3) 32bit version
LINKY 1
LINKY 2
The speed sensor on the ZX12R has 2 signal wires of which two goto the Dash and just one to the ecu.
My Fi LED flashes error codes if the Orange Dianose lead is grounded for >4 sec once the ignition is on, only if there is a code to report.
Not had mine ZX12R on the road yet but starts and runs in neutral.
So hopefully will get some more info soon.
Found this in the ZX12R manual
Link
(EDIT)
Just done some more research and now realised a fault on my own wiring.
The speed sensor needs a power feed from the Dash.
[Edited on 30/3/09 by rf900rush]
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bitsilly
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| posted on 31/3/09 at 08:33 AM |
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I am looking into getting a ZX14 from Andy Bates and he listed a 'gipro unit' to disable power limiter in top gears.
I would give him a call.
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paublo999
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| posted on 31/3/09 at 11:30 AM |
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Hi All,
The constant voltage experiment didnt work. Just bounced off the limited at 9855rpm according to the digidash.
Thanks for the links above, will see if the sensor differs from the 14
As for the gipro - I already have one but the low level error 24 ignores the gipro
the gipro will help you open the secondary butterflies and remove the top speed limit when the ecu/car is running 100% by fooling the ecu into
thinking it is in 4th gear
Andy is a top man, I have been keeping him abreast of my experiments
Plan B is to source a speed sensor - anyone any suggestions? Glasgow dealer doesnt have one and say that Kawasaki dont have any in the uk? Going to
try Malc at Yorkshire later this afternoon to see if he has any bits
Cheers
Paul
My videos http://www.youtube.com/user/ninjabogeyracing
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paublo999
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| posted on 31/3/09 at 03:57 PM |
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looks like the ever helpful Malc at Yorkshire Engines has a sensor.
Will keep the thread updated on my install. It appears that most installations still utilise this sensor, hence it not being reported as a fault
before.
My brother spoke to a bike dealer and he stated that 9800rpm is not a safe mode, so hopefully once this is done I may have an engine that revs out....
please!
Paul
My videos http://www.youtube.com/user/ninjabogeyracing
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Andy B
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| posted on 31/3/09 at 08:24 PM |
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Paul -
give me a call at the unit tomorrow - think we have this sorted out now.
I believe the reason the fixed resistor doesnt work is because the ecu is looking for and expecting to see a square wave signal, have done some
checking and am fairly confident we can feed a signal from an alternative speed sensor. However the ecu is quite particular as to sensor type - have a
chap ringing me in the morning to tell me which sensor he used
regards
Andy
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paublo999
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| posted on 1/4/09 at 07:54 AM |
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Hi Andy,
will do I have really struggled to find anyone with a speed sensor in stock, but Malc thinks he has one
You and Malc have been great, looking forward to seeing the full rev range. Hopefully my ZZR will then live up to expectations..... Busa beating!
Paul.
My videos http://www.youtube.com/user/ninjabogeyracing
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minitici
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| posted on 1/4/09 at 09:53 AM |
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Hi Paul,
Hope you can get hold of a zzr1400 / zx14 speed sensor.
You should have checked to see if one was fitted when you first posted
I think you will find I suggested that the sensor was the problem
Thread
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paublo999
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| posted on 1/4/09 at 09:57 AM |
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my knowledge and confidence in the engine has now gone from none to low... so I understand what you are talking about now....
fast on track, slow elsewhere..
thanks for your help
My videos http://www.youtube.com/user/ninjabogeyracing
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minitici
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| posted on 1/4/09 at 10:35 AM |
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Paul, It is always a bit of a learning curve....
..... I just spent half a day with an R1 5VY with the plug coils in the wrong order
Just swapped them over and the engine fired first time 
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paublo999
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| posted on 1/4/09 at 11:00 AM |
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I wish I had the time to build one from scratch and get myself up that curve.
Had my old blade engine sussed and then needed more power. I have had limited time on this new injected motor with its fancy sensors and ecu.
Next challenge is to make sure the accusump is working properly. Non stop challenges.
Give me a shout if you need a hand..
My videos http://www.youtube.com/user/ninjabogeyracing
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paublo999
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| posted on 6/4/09 at 11:43 AM |
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managed to get a speed sensor but it might be the wrong one. I have it working but it is outputting 5.8v rather than 4.8v.
will leave it and give it a try and see if the ECU is that sensitive. I certainly have the square wave now that I am looking for
roll on Saturday for the first sprint of the year
Will post some pictures of the install once I get it tested and wiring tidied up
Cheers guys
Paul.
My videos http://www.youtube.com/user/ninjabogeyracing
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Moorron
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| posted on 6/4/09 at 12:09 PM |
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i think you should be ok with that. I use the ZX12 speed sensor to feed my aftermarket speedo and also my fancy electronic on which requires a 12v
output. They supply a resistor to stick on the output of the speed sensor to achive this. My ecu is still in one peice.
Sorry about my spelling, im an engineer and only work in numbers.
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paublo999
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| posted on 8/5/09 at 12:11 PM |
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A Solution :)
I believe it is fixed. Thanks to everyone for their suggestions and support.
Just to try and bring a close to this thread and leave some instructions for fellow locosters who hit this issue.
More info on my blog - but essentially three steps to solving this issue.
1. Live voltage needs to be capped to protect the speed sensor. I blew the original speed sensor when at high revs the charging/battery circuit is
putting out in excess of 14v. The sensor needs between 9~11v.
solution - 9v voltage regulator from maplin = £0.89.
This step is not required if you have original clocks, as the voltage will already be regulated.
2. Speed sensor wiring. Take the live regulated 9v feed (which replaces the pink wire from the clocks) to the speed sensor. Blue/Yellow wire back to
the ecu. I just connected the earth locally to the mounting bracket for the sensor.
3. Physical install - the engine needs 4 square wave pulses from 0.09v to 4.8v per rotation of the output shaft. If the ecu doesn't pick this up
it will report errors 24/25 and lock the engine in 6th gear and limit revs to 9800rpm.
Solution - 4 x 6mm magnets glued to the gearbox output flange which the sensor can read. I used one of the old sprocket cover bolts and made a simple
L shaped bracket to hold it in place. Make sure it is reasonably substancial and doesnt move around as you could damage it or as I did knock the
magnets off.
First competition test this weekend. Will report back if it remains 100%. I believe my original problems were related to the peak in voltage at full
power.
A couple of notes for Digidash users -
1) Most ETB digidash installations use 2 magnets on the prop. In theory the ETB unit could be used but ETB Intruments advised against trying to take a
second feed from the dash or sensor itself.
2) The ETB unit can be configured to read 4 magnets rather than 2 so it would just be a matter of modifying the bracket. (Thanks George)
Hope this can help someone else. I know a couple of people on the forums have been in touch with this same issue. Sorry it has taken so long
Cheers
Paul.
My videos http://www.youtube.com/user/ninjabogeyracing
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jambo
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| posted on 8/5/09 at 10:01 PM |
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hope its fixed paul,this was a tough one to crack.
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paublo999
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| posted on 18/5/09 at 07:50 AM |
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can confirm it is definately giving me full revs
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My videos http://www.youtube.com/user/ninjabogeyracing
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