Benzine
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| posted on 12/10/09 at 07:42 PM |
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The gr8 deb8
...m8
Predictions for the car:
When do you think there will be as many electric cars as there are internal combustion?
When oil consumption/production goes right down and all cars are electric/non I/C, do you think you will you still be able to drive your kit/classic,
if so what restrictions do you think will apply and how expensive will the fuel be? or will there be an all out ban and you won't be able to
drive them on the road?
Do you think years from now classic/general i/c cars value will do through the roof, stay the same or go down?
Not a survey or anything, just bored atm 
The mental gymnastics a landlord will employ to justify immoral actions is clinically fascinating. Just because something is legal doesn't make
it moral.
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cd.thomson
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| posted on 12/10/09 at 07:45 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Benzine
The gr8 deb8 m8
CEC every time. 
Craig
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jollygreengiant
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| posted on 12/10/09 at 07:50 PM |
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The question is, WHO, will be the first on here to build an EEC?????
Beware of the Goldfish in the tulip mines. The ONLY defence against them is smoking peanut butter sandwiches.
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speedyxjs
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| posted on 12/10/09 at 07:51 PM |
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I personally dont think electric cars will take off. I think the future is in hydrogen 
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Ninehigh
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| posted on 12/10/09 at 08:02 PM |
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Provided they're not just taking it out of gas and actually producing it in a green manner
I've been pestering Honda to bring out the FCX for nearly a year now... Tesla appear to be making viable alternatives apart from the price tag
(£90k for an electric Elise?)
No matter how much anyone else will disagree and say "oh but you've got to get used to it" any alternative will need:
400 mile (minimum) "fuel range"
Fuel up time under 15 mins
Able to do 80mph all day
And for me if it can't carry 5 people I can't have it (you know, family car as opposed to little pod thing)
Price tag about the same (I could go 10% higher...)
Cost per mile similar or lower
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dinosaurjuice
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| posted on 12/10/09 at 08:16 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by speedyxjs
I personally dont think electric cars will take off. I think the future is in hydrogen
hydrogen which is used to make electricity to power electric motors attached to wheels.
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beagley
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| posted on 12/10/09 at 08:16 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Ninehigh
No matter how much anyone else will disagree and say "oh but you've got to get used to it" any alternative will need:
400 mile (minimum) "fuel range"
Fuel up time under 15 mins
Able to do 80mph all day
Why the 400 mile range? I have an 8 mile commute to work where I could plug up all day and my wife has about a 22 mile drive, but she could also plug
in while at work for 8 hours. It seems everyone is scared with a 40 - 50 mile range and all, but the truth seems to be that "most" people
don't really drive more than 20-30 miles round trip for daily use.
I would love to have an electric car that could give me 40 miles on a charge and go about 70 mph.... at a reasonable cost.
I can't see hydrogen as a strong contender as it takes a lot more energy to convert the hydrogen to electricity than other alternatives. Not to
mention the need to build infrastructure and fueling stations. That could be another plus for electrics..... the electric grid is already there so no
need to worry about major infrastructure building.
Just my 2 cents...
I'm not scared!!! I'm just marking my territory.
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JoelP
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| posted on 12/10/09 at 08:25 PM |
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in the uk, they say the national electric grid is barely adequate for current demands (excuse the pun...) and needs major investment.
Hydrogen fuel cell should be fairly efficient shouldnt it?
On the range issue, you could just hire a small trailer with a few batteries/tank of gas if you wanted longer journeys, ie for holidays.
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Ninehigh
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| posted on 12/10/09 at 09:31 PM |
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I used to do a 55 mile round trip for work, so a 40 mile range would have scuppered me. Plus what about that occasional long journey? It would take me
about 10 "fill ups" to get to London from here, and how far apart are the service stations? Factor in charging time and how long will that
take?
I used to do taxi-ing and on a busy saturday night I could do 400 miles just working!
I'm serious it would need to be as convenent as cars are now.
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skodaman
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| posted on 13/10/09 at 01:33 AM |
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Without a quantum leap in battery technology I can't see electric cars ever being adequate. Also don't like the idea of driving a
completely silent car. If all else fails we'll just have to run em all on old chip pan oil. (smells better than diesel anyway).
Skodaman
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kennyrayandersen
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| posted on 13/10/09 at 02:38 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by speedyxjs
I personally dont think electric cars will take off. I think the future is in hydrogen
Hydrogen is a dead end unless we learn to violate the laws of physics. It’s just being used to store energy, and it does that poorly. It is not an
energy dense fuel, so it needs to be stored at REALLY high pressures etc. which limits the range and right now it actually takes more energy to get
the hydrogen than it provides… oops.
EVs are still a ways off. Biggest problem, again, is energy storage. Batteries are either very heavy, or very expensive, but mostly heavy. The
range is generally horrible, so if you live a few furlongs down the road, maybe it could work for you, but otherwise, for the foreseeable future, we
are saddled to petrol and I suspect later to some alcohol.
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Ninehigh
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| posted on 13/10/09 at 04:59 AM |
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Ah now this is where solar power comes in, there are towers that use mirrors to concentrate solar power into one point and produce electricity from
that. Not sure how well it works but I'm sure we'll get there soon enough and hey there's these great big deserts
Honda have also got a home filling kit, again using solar power, here go pester them
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speedyxjs
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| posted on 13/10/09 at 06:01 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by dinosaurjuice
quote:
Originally posted by speedyxjs
I personally dont think electric cars will take off. I think the future is in hydrogen
hydrogen which is used to make electricity to power electric motors attached to wheels.
Yes but you wouldnt have the 24hr charge time or 150 mile range
How long can i resist the temptation to drop a V8 in?
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JoelP
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| posted on 13/10/09 at 06:13 AM |
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i think it would be a terrible thing if biofuels became popular - imagine fuel and food competing for land to be grown on. We'd starve! Well,
someone would anyway, probably brazil... 
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swanny
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| posted on 13/10/09 at 08:00 AM |
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I was at a conference 6 months ago and a chap from the organisation that is responsible for vehicle research said that in 40 years half of all
vehicles would still have an I/C engine, possible as part of a hybrid and that they didnt see EV taking over totally.
biofuels are interesting; the initial push meant that huge swathes of fuel prodcuing land was lost to palm oil production and the like. The next
generation bio fuels which are currently under developement will hopefully take a more more sophisticated approach. Utilising commerical waste streams
and/or adding enzymes to existing organix stock to produce significantly higher returns than simply re using chip fat. think of all the oil used to
make the processed foods we love, one manufacturer i know is using tens of millions of gallons every year. and then think that if by adding the
correct enzyme you could double the bang you get for your buck when burning that oil?
in the end there is no one big solution, the answer may well come incrementally, in millions of tiny steps.
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Benzine
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| posted on 13/10/09 at 10:23 AM |
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Re: electric car range. Why don't they make a standard battery size and a standard way in which it fixes to the car, then when you "fill
up" at a station you get the batteries swapped over by a machine. Could even have standard, premium etc
Loads of talk about electric cars, but has anyone got thoughts on whether they'll be able to drive a loud, thirsty kit car in the future or if
you'll only be able to if, say, it's on a track or you have limited mileage per year with a tracker or similar?
I guess part of the reluctancy to switch to non-i/c is that we love it and don't want to see it dissapear. If it's still available for the
indefinate future then it wouldn't bother me, switch to electric as soon as, as long as I can have an i/c classic/kit for occassional use!
The mental gymnastics a landlord will employ to justify immoral actions is clinically fascinating. Just because something is legal doesn't make
it moral.
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swanny
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| posted on 13/10/09 at 10:33 AM |
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i also saw the hybrid lotus. it has a synthesizer so you can play engine noise internally and externally (!) so you still get the sound of an engine.
you can have whatever you want. even horses hooves!
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wilkingj
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| posted on 13/10/09 at 11:44 AM |
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I was watching a programme about Cells (organic types) and their origins. ie all things living are made from cells that come from the same source. Ie
the Darwin theory stuff.
However the interesting thing was in the last programme about genetic engineering. They have engineered a cell that feeds on sugar type substances,
and produces Bio-Diesel as a waste product.
This diesel only needed washing to clean it up and was fit for imediate use.
I can see this being used as a clean way to provide fuel. OK we ned to grow tons of sugar beet etc. But it's a clean way of producing bio fuel
without the process of estrifying it from palm oil and the likes.
No nasty chemical processes, just this liquid sludge being fed endless amounts of sugar and creaming the diesle off the top.
I cannot see Hydrogen being used en masse. You have to make the hydrogen first. This will take a lot of energy, assuming the laws of physics will
still apply in the future.
EV's a re nice and good for their purpose. However for long / heavy haul, I cannot see the Infernal Combustion engine being scrapped just
yet.
Maybe in the future when they have perfected Cold Fusion, and we can all have Mr Fusion units on our cars etc (You need to see Back to the Future to
understand "Mr Fusion" )
All good stuff... but not for the masses just yet. Still if they keep working at it they will get there eventually.
My view is there are just TOO MANY PEOPLE on this planet. (a 50% increase from 4 to 6 Billion ppl in the last 40 years ie in less than my lifetime)
Not that I am advocating mass genocide etc etc.
Eventually the resources will run dry or get very scarce. Then a War will ensue and reduce the population ie reduction by natural selection etc etc.
Then it wont matter anymore and the insects (real ones, not small minded people!) will take over the planet
1. The point of a journey is not to arrive.
2. Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
Best Regards
Geoff
http://www.v8viento.co.uk
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SteveWalker
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| posted on 13/10/09 at 11:50 AM |
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Electric would be fine for my wife - she's a community nurse and only needs to tootle around the local area. My car on the other hand may be
used for the 40 mile round trip to work (it has been as much as a 180 mile trip in the past), the 200 mile trip to visit friends, the 900 mile (each
way) holiday trip abroad (while towing a trailer) and frequent longish distance days out with the kids.
I also want the ability to carry five people, while towing a trailer and with the boot full!
To be able to maintain that if we move to electricity for transport, hydrogen or some other artifically produced fuel would be the most likely, simply
due to the energy density and recharge time problems of batteries.
The distribution network would likely cope okay, as most recharging would be done during the off-peak period when it is only lightly loaded. What we
produce the electricity with is the question. If carbon capture can be made to work and at reasonable cost, then we have plenty of coal, tidal power
can contribute, as can wind, but otherwise I don't see much alternative to nuclear. France manages to produce 85+ % of its power from nuclear
stations, without us hearing of major problems or protests.
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 13/10/09 at 12:10 PM |
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I'd love one of these short-range vehicles (whatever sort) as long as it was cheap to run, and didn't involve a vast expenditure in a few
years time (as batteries do at the moment - just wait until Prius owners realise that their batteries have a finite life!).
99.9% of my driving is on short journeys - Monday to Friday I do 6 miles to and from the station... on Saturdays I may go 7 miles to and from town.
(on Sundays I hoon around in my toy car... )
The main trouble is that the true cost of the energy isn't being counted for all of these cars - hydrogen production consumes power, electricity
for batteries consumes coal, gas or nuclear energy (and there are losses from the power station to the house), and even the compressed air cars
require energy to compress the air - a very inefficient process.
Until we have electric cars that can be charged overnight from a wind turbine then there isn't a truly environmentally-safe option.
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tweek
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| posted on 13/10/09 at 12:10 PM |
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I think the best next step would be the diesel series hybrid. ie a small highly efficient diesel generator powering electric motors with maybe a small
amount of batteries for starting off.
The problem with batteries is they are so dirty to produce, hydrogen also takes large amounts of energy to produce. Until these processes can be made
cleaner and more efficient I don't think they are really viable for the scale we are talking about.
Now if they can make nuclear fusion work properly...
"oh dear..." said god,
"I hadn't thought of that"
and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic
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:{THC}:YosamiteSam
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| posted on 13/10/09 at 12:52 PM |
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well guys i do know what will happen in the near future - i work at nissan and as such the group (with renault as well) has come up with a plan for
how it feels there will be cars in the future.
the government has told car manufacurers they HAVE to make green cars - full stop - and now not 10 years down the line but within a couple of years
at the frankfurt show this year renault showed what they are coming up with - starting with a car the size of a megane
and 3 others as well - one still concept
nissan has currently a car being launched soon called the leaf - yea crap name - but technically it should be a way ahead of the current cars out
there
these cars are capable of 100 mile range
0-60 times comparible to a V6
80% charge in 20 mins
batteries you dont own - so dont get bills for to replace - you lease them in with the car costs
the recharge system at home looks like it will be installed as part of the car purchase
the batteries are not big huge wacking things taking the whole boot up but small cells within the floor space
when the batteries are dead or need to be replaced you will be driving the car to an 'exchange' facility - probably at gas stations and an
automated sytyem removes the dead ones - swaps it with recharged ones - away you go - in 3 minutes!
the leaf is rolling out it seems in the US first then over here as soon as the infrastructure is upto speed - which is the hardest bit i suppose -
working in conjunction with fuel suppliers and local councils etc to work out where to site them is on going now.
hydrogen cars are in my eyes the way forward - but there are big problems with firstly cost - its not financially viable for a mass market - yet -
along with the other downsides - but if they can power my house whilst stationary on the drive - i'll sign up now!
problem is that everyone knows electric cars are not the best solution but something has to be done RIGHT NOW - the other technologies will need to be
developed further - battery development is evolving at such a huge pace that they predict ranges of 300 miles+ by 2013 or so
in fact we are going to be manufacturing lithium ion batteries in the near future - hopefully as well the leaf if we get the contract for that - that
is to be decided yet
the best way is to look at them
renault ZE program
nissan leaf
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Ninehigh
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| posted on 13/10/09 at 06:18 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Benzine
Re: electric car range. Why don't they make a standard battery size and a standard way in which it fixes to the car, then when you "fill
up" at a station you get the batteries swapped over by a machine. Could even have standard, premium etc
Came up with that idea myself about a year ago. When you pull the "filler cap release" the dashboard will tell you how many batteries to
replace and you'd get charged based on those numbers. Also the larger the car the more they can hold (like a bigger car with a bigger fuel
tank)
quote:
Originally posted by Tweek
I think the best next step would be the diesel series hybrid. ie a small highly efficient diesel generator powering electric motors with maybe a small
amount of batteries for starting off.
That's also been suggested on here, and Vauxhall are doing something similar due for release about late 2011. Look up the Ampera
Further to this given all the "common problems" cars are having these days (injectors blowing up on a certain Ford for instance) I'm
sure people would put up with a few niggles, bring these things out already!
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Ninehigh
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| posted on 14/10/09 at 08:49 PM |
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You know I just thought of something else.
An electric motor contains very few moving parts and apparently have almost zero servicing.. What's gonna happen to all the mechanics?
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jeffw
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| posted on 15/10/09 at 05:48 AM |
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The problem is that we are raping certain parts of the world to produce these "green" cars. The manufacturing process and raw materials
for these batteries will come back to haunt us.
Electric cars require electricity generation from something ....it is already predicted that we will have electricity shortages in the next few years
as we haven't built enough renewable sources (most of which are a joke) or Nuclear stations. A wholesale switch to EVs would see the country
grind to a (silent) halt. I do not think people will except the range and recharge rate either (drive 100miles, wait 3 hours, drive another 100
miles...makes a trip to Scotland from Kent take a very long time).
I have images of Motorway hardshoulders full of EV waiting for the AA/RAC to arrive and take the for a charge....
I would have thought fuel cell technology would be much more suitable for vehicles.
Expect to still be using your smell, noisey IC cars for sometime to come.
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