yahshuatwo
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| posted on 11/11/11 at 11:29 PM |
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reverse gearbox + overdrive coming soon from the states
Hi All BEC enthusiast,
I'm developing a reverse gearbox + overdrive (the RBox) for BEC owners world-wide. In the states, not only is there great demand for a reverse
gearbox solution for BEC cars but also overdrive to reduce the rpms down whilst crusing on the street. This make the BEC a more viable solution for
on-track/street use. It has come to my attention that many prospective builders choose CEC locosts over BEC because CEC cruise a lower rpms < 3,000
as well as better low-end torque. Of course, BEC can't provide greater low-end torque than CECs, but its possible to reduce those high-rpms down
for crusing. We all love the sequential-shifting, high-reving bike engines but can't stand the high-rpms while crusing on the street or on short
trips @ 70 mph. Below is quick look on youtube:
RBox Demo
Ryan
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Davegtst
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| posted on 12/11/11 at 07:46 AM |
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I've been looking for some kind of overdrive lately but everything seems wildly expensive or far too big. Your one looks like it could be just
what I'm after. Any idea of cost and a rough completion date?
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Ivan
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| posted on 12/11/11 at 08:46 AM |
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Looks like a winner - will the overdrive gears be helical as square cut could be very noisy?
Of course price will ultimately be the decider.
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yahshuatwo
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| posted on 12/11/11 at 11:39 AM |
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I'm looking at $1300-1400 USD and a ready date of early 2012'. I guess +- 650 euros for you guys? Box will use standard straight-cut
(spur) gears to keep the cost down. I have a prototype (with reverse only) in my locoBusa and i don't hear 'whinning' gears as the
car drives. Also, the design calls for a carbon-fiber cover and dual o-rings to prevent oil leakage.
[Edited on 12/11/11 by yahshuatwo]
[Edited on 12/11/11 by yahshuatwo]
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Davegtst
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| posted on 12/11/11 at 12:08 PM |
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I think you got your conversion a bit wrong there it's going to be more like 1000 euros or £900. Why a corbon fibre cover? Once fitted it
probably won't be seen again. It's going to be quite an expensive unit so why not try and keep costs down.
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Dangle_kt
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| posted on 12/11/11 at 01:22 PM |
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seems a great idea. It was the reason I hardly used by bec when I had it. Always fancied taking it to work, but couldnt hack an hour of
RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!
on the motorway
Is an overdrive ratio as big as that viable?
[Edited on 12/11/11 by Dangle_kt]
[Edited on 12/11/11 by Dangle_kt]
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 12/11/11 at 04:33 PM |
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I've been working on something very similar for myself for a while. Straight cut gears, although helical is not a lot more pricewise, and dog
change. Straight drive 1:1, and overdrive to bring bike revs down to little more than car. ~1:1.3+/-
Cost of the gears and shafts I've been quoted at less than £120, made here in London. The casing is £45 for a batch of 10, then theres the
machining and the shift yokes. If a man was resourceful, he could make the whole thing using gears from one of the Hewland or the ex-Staffs racing
'boxes, for little more cost.
Should end up well under £400.
I'll be doing it when I get my little bike engined project moving early next year. I wouldn't be looking to make these boxes commercially,
but if the demand is there...
Configuration will be with double input and output bearings, specifically for use parallel to the engine crank and chain drive.
I know I could get the gears made cheaper in USA, and where to go, but they want big batches(>100) so how matey is getting his pricing I do not
know. £900 + freight, then VAT. Costs don't compute.
Cheers,
Nev.
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Minicooper
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| posted on 12/11/11 at 05:17 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
I've been working on something very similar for myself for a while. Straight cut gears, although helical is not a lot more pricewise, and dog
change. Straight drive 1:1, and overdrive to bring bike revs down to little more than car. ~1:1.3+/-
Cost of the gears and shafts I've been quoted at less than £120, made here in London. The casing is £45 for a batch of 10, then theres the
machining and the shift yokes. If a man was resourceful, he could make the whole thing using gears from one of the Hewland or the ex-Staffs racing
'boxes, for little more cost.
Should end up well under £400.
I'll be doing it when I get my little bike engined project moving early next year. I wouldn't be looking to make these boxes commercially,
but if the demand is there...
Configuration will be with double input and output bearings, specifically for use parallel to the engine crank and chain drive.
I know I could get the gears made cheaper in USA, and where to go, but they want big batches(>100) so how matey is getting his pricing I do not
know. £900 + freight, then VAT. Costs don't compute.
Cheers,
Nev.
Matey as you call him, is pricing the unit at £900 to make a profit, I don't anyone who makes stuff and sells it at cost
David
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yahshuatwo
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| posted on 13/11/11 at 01:48 PM |
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quote:
Te I know I could get the gears made cheaper in USA, and where to go, but they want big batches(>100) so how matey is getting his pricing I do not
know. £900 + freight, then VAT. Costs don't compute.
Well, at this point of the design phase there are no custom hobbed gears which costly in small quantities. That's why the overdrive ratio is
rather high. Ww will finish assembly, test the box and then re-assess the overdrive ratio, and perhaps get the gears custom cut. I know of a USA
business that provide custom gearing, just don't know the cost.
Davegst wrote
quote:
Tex Why a corbon fibre cover? Once fitted it probably won't be seen again. It's going to be quite an expensive unit so why not try and
keep costs down. t
Although CF material costs are higher than an aluminum cast or alum formed boxed, the CF labor cost will be nothing because I'll do the CF
lay-up in-house.
in my shop. Lay-up will use the typical vacuum and baking technique. Casting the cover and the machining edges/faces is costly and wasteful. Sheet
metal forming and bending the cover is very efficient but that task has to be outsourced.
The bearing housings are casted and machined to tolerance and that's it as far as outsourcing, all remaining will be done in-house
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Davegtst
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| posted on 13/11/11 at 02:58 PM |
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Really looking foward to this. Do you have any photos?
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stevebubs
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| posted on 13/11/11 at 03:51 PM |
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Would be interested in how well this works out - the Z cars equivalent never made it past the prototype as it kept ripping itself apart.
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yahshuatwo
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| posted on 13/11/11 at 04:58 PM |
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Lookup "Yahshuatwo" channel on youtube for pics , vids
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 13/11/11 at 07:08 PM |
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quote:
Matey as you call him, is pricing the unit at £900 to make a profit, I don't anyone who makes stuff and sells it at cost
David
[SOAPBOX OUT]
At £400, I'd make a FAIR profit. Not a ripoff!!! The world wide market for these is small, and is not something that I'd try to
base a business on, so I wouldn't even try.
I'll do what I want for myself, as I've explained to those interested in u2u, and if others want them, I may make for them at what I
consider a fair price. I've already stated my total disdain for the motor racing industry and its grossly inflated selling prices when related
to costs.
Why does a low end racing transaxle cost over £4k, when it costs about £500 to make in the numbers they do? Because everyone has been strung along to
believe that that's what it costs, and the mugs then believe it!!! CFRP HANS devices at £700, when they could be sold at £150 and decent profits
still be made?????
[/SOAPBOX OUT]
[I'll do the CF lay-up in-house. in my shop. Lay-up will use the typical vacuum and baking technique.]
I've made carbon gearcases( and driveshafts and bellhousings and manifolds and pressure vessels and ...) here since 1987, and can tell you, and
everyone reading this, that a handlayup vacuumed and baked item just will not do the job! End of discussion, it just plain won't survive!!!
I've tried all the alternatives, made the (very big and costly) mistakes, and know that there is only one (relatively inexpensive) way to do the
job properly.
Cheers, ?????
Nev.
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yahshuatwo
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| posted on 14/11/11 at 02:16 AM |
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quote:
I've made carbon gearcases( and driveshafts and bellhousings and manifolds and pressure vessels and ...) here since 1987, and can tell you, and
everyone reading this, that a handlayup vacuumed and baked item just will not do the job! End of discussion, it just plain won't survive!!!
\
As with anything developed in this world, you try it out and if fails you try some thing different - you live and learn. But back to the pricing,
it's fair relative to all the others out there, especially if it's 1) safe 2) durable 3) does what its expected to do.
For educational purpose, why did your CF products fail? Have there been success stories using CF? Yes there has been. Some one please tells me about
the success stories and not so much about the failures - we can learn from failures though, but at the end of the day we all want to know what made it
successful. I do understand that the consumer will always push new products to the limits and beyond - that's expected.
I'm even more curious about CF as the gearcase now!!
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yahshuatwo
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| posted on 19/11/11 at 03:04 PM |
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After much thought, I concluded that overdrive ratio was far too high on the RBox. The consensus and research convey that overdrive should be a 30%
increase of the nomal 1:1 or as already stated ~1:1.30 +/ or .80 , mine will come in at 1:1.22. Much thanks to Chris Gamlin's BEC speed/ratio
calculator. I was able to plug my new OD ratios using the calculator tool and things are looking bright for the RBox. I can change the gear
arrangements and make slight mods without having to make custom gears ($$). Also, I pondered on the pricing of the unit and concluded I can get the
price down a couple hundress dollars ($1000 USD) ~ (727 Euros) or (£622).
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phelpsa
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| posted on 19/11/11 at 03:57 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by yahshuatwo
quote:
I've made carbon gearcases( and driveshafts and bellhousings and manifolds and pressure vessels and ...) here since 1987, and can tell you, and
everyone reading this, that a handlayup vacuumed and baked item just will not do the job! End of discussion, it just plain won't survive!!!
As with anything developed in this world, you try it out and if fails you try some thing different - you live and learn. But back to the pricing,
it's fair relative to all the others out there, especially if it's 1) safe 2) durable 3) does what its expected to do.
For educational purpose, why did your CF products fail? Have there been success stories using CF? Yes there has been. Some one please tells me about
the success stories and not so much about the failures - we can learn from failures though, but at the end of the day we all want to know what made it
successful. I do understand that the consumer will always push new products to the limits and beyond - that's expected.
I'm even more curious about CF as the gearcase now!!
F1 gear cases are CF and not all that complex even though they take suspension loads. As you say, for low volume the advantages (low tooling costs
compared to cast and billet) could as good as balance out the disadvantages (being able to make sure you have suitable load paths, higher material
costs). Don't let Nev put you off, but if you can extract some useful advice from him (quite difficult!) he does know what he's talking
about.
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yahshuatwo
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| posted on 19/11/11 at 06:20 PM |
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Lets not forget that the cf part is just a cover to contain the oil. No significant structural support or housing bearing radial loads. I do expect
some torsen or twisting forces. I have 5 long socket cap screw bolts that sandwich the cover and bearing plates together like the old eurotech fr2000
reverse box did . My prototype box in my car uses the same concept, except it has a 3mm steel cover.
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MikeFellows
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| posted on 20/11/11 at 12:09 AM |
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I've got to be honest if this box works its worth the money
its £700 for a quaife box that has no over drive and leaks regularly (so im told). so at 900-100 it doesnt seem unreasonable
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yahshuatwo
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| posted on 20/11/11 at 12:38 AM |
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That's what I'm talking about mike! Quaife charges 900 pounds for reverse only.
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Nick DV
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| posted on 20/11/11 at 10:01 AM |
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I made this statement 10 odd years ago, (and was 'demonised' for saying negative things about Quaife!), when these boxes started appearing
on the BEC scene, and IMHO nothing's changed! Still think that both are too much money by far!!
Cheers, Nick
quote:
Originally posted by MikeFellows
I've got to be honest if this box works its worth the money
its £700 for a quaife box that has no over drive and leaks regularly (so im told). so at 900-100 it doesnt seem unreasonable
"The force will be with you, always!"
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 20/11/11 at 01:22 PM |
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My version will be more costly, now priced at £1200, with choice of overdrives(£1500), so is much better!  Still won't cost more than a third
of that to make. But, if the mugs want to pay, I'll take the money. Next April/may when I get to it. Already got designs and prices, still got
to make the patterns for the box and external shaft supports.
Cheers,
Nev.
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bobinspain
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| posted on 20/11/11 at 06:16 PM |
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Were I not a cynic Neville, I'd consider your riposte somewhat cynical.
Keep up the good work. No-one shall sleep so long as you police the technalia of this website.
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Minicooper
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| posted on 20/11/11 at 08:28 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
My version will be more costly, now priced at £1200, with choice of overdrives(£1500), so is much better! Still won't cost more than a third
of that to make. But, if the mugs want to pay, I'll take the money. Next April/may when I get to it. Already got designs and prices, still got
to make the patterns for the box and external shaft supports.
Cheers,
Nev.
Why bother, you have nothing positive to add or even slightly constructive, so just get lost. I don't believe you ever come up with the goods in
any form at any price. I will buy one of your boxes at £400, I don't need one but I would do it so it cost you money, it has to be a
finished/tested and proved to be fit for purpose
Cheers
David
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Nick DV
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| posted on 20/11/11 at 08:55 PM |
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quote:
Why bother, you have nothing positive to add or even slightly constructive, so just get lost. I don't believe you ever come up with the goods in
any form at any price. I will buy one of your boxes at £400, I don't need one but I would do it so it cost you money, it has to be a
finished/tested and proved to be fit for purpose
Cheers
David
Surely, you cannot be serious!! 
Cheers, Nick
[Edited on 20/11/11 by Nick DV]
"The force will be with you, always!"
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Toprivetguns
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| posted on 20/11/11 at 08:58 PM |
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Good luck to the man and to anyone who can design something beneficial for all of us.
Only drive as fast as your angel can fly... !
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