andylancaster3000
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| posted on 26/8/04 at 12:16 AM |
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Cost of BEC
About to start building a locost after finally finishing garage re-build. The idea is to build a BEC rather then a car engined car and run in the RGB
series, probably a Class C car (Carbed Fireblade). However it will have to be on a budget, how much can a car be built for at a minimum?
Secondly, how much attention has to be payed to the engine once installed. Having read various posts about the 1300 crossflow in the locost formula,
they seem to need a lot of attention. Is this the case with a bike engine or are they more of fit and forget?
Thanks,
Andy.
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Cita
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| posted on 26/8/04 at 05:28 AM |
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well Andy for what my opinion is worth from the moment you gonna do any sort of racing,your car will need more attention than your daily
driver,regardless if it's a BEC or a crossflow or whatever,simply because your demands are higher than what the car/engine is actually designed
for.You gonna bring this engine to it's limit,not once but time after time.
I asked myself the same question about what's it gonna cost me?Well this question should be reversed into:what can i afford?
Wanting a Lambo but having money for a Focus pretty easely solves the problem.
All IMHO of course
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 26/8/04 at 07:19 AM |
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the following may help a little.....
Posted on: 23/08/2004 22:00:50
and from the other end of the grid...got to agree that with the impressive number of starters you would have thought we ought to be getting a separate
C race...reduces the risk of bouncing of rampant strikers as they lap me! I assume it is just track economics that are preventing it given the (I
guess) relatively high capacity of the track at Silverstone??
Falcs Posted on: 23/08/2004 23:56:29
Hi Phil,
agree with what you say apart from the cost to change to class A, I would put that figure at 3.5 to 5k, as most cars take blade or busa power so the
price is the engine. The above figure could be less with some of the alleged monies spent on blade power by some people!!
philgreenway Posted on: 24/08/2004 07:57:33
I rekon my car is worth about 9k - 10k and will sell it at the end of the season to the best offer around those figures.Talking to Tim Hamer Genisis =
20k Alistair Fury 20k even Stuart Taylor said around 20k ADR=? Sylva=? Please fill in the prices if its 15k I could be tempted.
Phil G
Phil G
Phil A Posted on: 24/08/2004 09:04:44
Whilst the entries are good, come the actual race there have been a significant number of drop outs this season. Two rounds ago at Brands there were
31 entries but only 24 cars made the grid. This will undoubtedly impact the thinking of the 750 club. Even at Lydden when there were two races the
entries dropped down to 26 by race day. Class A has never yet got more than 6 cars on the grid, and the best so far for Class C is 17. Hopefullly this
weekend will see an end to this trend, and then perhaps two grids might become a realistic proposition.
GrahamH Posted on: 24/08/2004 08:55:36
And with only 4 B entrants it would surely make sense that they were combined with C.
I have to agree with Phil, Fireblade class is such fantastic bang for buck and usually we're well behind the main A contenders (me even further
behind...) and I reckon to compete in A is likely to be nearer to an extra £10k over the season. Like Phil no one pays my bills and I can't
claim any VAT or business tax advantages - it's bloody expensive and as a result I'm hesitant to move to A and will probably stay in C.
Graham
GordonG Posted on: 24/08/2004 09:19:34
OK, if you want to compare apples with apples, lets consider converting a Blade car to class A power (otherwise you also get the cost of upgrading to
a new car).
Sell your blade engine and bits (loom, manifold, mounts, etc) for, say, £1000 (sure you could get a bit more if you tried).
Then buy a Busa for £2.5k or a zx12r for 1.5k with loom et al.
£200 for mounts etc.
£250 for a decent mild steel manifold (use your existing can)
£1000 for a dry sump, tank and hoses
£150 for a TFI (dynojet equivalent for FI motors)
£100 for an electric water pump
total for these additional bits £1700
So for £1.2k-2.2k (net of flogging the blade install) you can upgrade to class A. Oh, you might also want a new set of wheels and tyres but you can
spend as much or as little as you like on that and you'll want a new set of tyres for next year anyway.
The above figures assume you shop about a bit for an engine (good ones *are* available for cheaper than the prices above) and dont go silly on shiny
bits (Al).
Maybe I've missed some stuff, but this is the big stuff I'm pretty sure.
As for new cars, my detailed budget for the build of next year's class A car stands currently at less than £14k. That's with me being
careful with the costs, doing the assembly work, getting a few bits off Ebay and bartering a bit for some other bits. However, I intend to have a well
presented (for me), competitive class A car for that.
There's not many single make series that beat that for car cost even without the 6 speed sequential and 11krpm...
On the other topic of grid sizes:
Silverstone (being the size of the M25) has a large grid capacity. Robin has to fill as many grids as possible per track day to try to make the books
balance; the fuller the grids, the cheaper the entry fees is another way of looking at it. Robin has said to me that his worst case scenario is
classes running races with reserves (ie we're assuming no-one drops out before Sunday race) as the extra 3 cars do not warrant an extra grid,
but OTOH we have 3 p1ssed off drivers without a race. Robin also has to plan who gets 2 grids some time ahead of the race day/closing date, so if we
have a load of last minute entries we may miss out on 2 grids. I never understand why regular racers dont use the bulk entry form - much less form
filling, and you just have to ring up and cancel any race you're not doing.
We are not the only class knocking on the door of 2 grids at many races, and other classes have had the same discussion.
We got 2 grids at Lydden cos it's a small circuit that is only licensed for small grids. The racing was, I grant you, fantastic. We probably
wont get 2 grids for Oulton as some drivers dont like schlepping all the way up there (I know, Phil, I know).
Personally I never had a problem with finishing behind the class A guys. My enjoyment comes from putting in a good result relative to the people in my
class that I think I should be beating (That said, I've never won a race yet so maybe it's an attidude thing?). The class A guys are a
different race, and it's very funny when it rains and the big boys get beaten. The only reason I've gone class A next year is I wanted a
change of car and there wasnt anything sufficiently different for class C.
If we were to amalgamate B&C, with this years entrants we would struggle to have a viable class A grid. As the classes are now, all separate, we
can get closer to an even split of A&B plus C to maximise our chances of double grids.
On the topic of class B, I've been wondering for a while why we dont have more B cars. Engines can be less than a set of tyres, and
there's no reason that they shouldnt be as quick or quicker than C cars.
G
Alistair Posted on: 24/08/2004 10:31:25
G's cost analysis is fair.
I have raced in both classes and enjoyed them both.
I find both big red and the Menace very quick and a handful and much more difficult to drive than my class C fury.
Racing class A generally puts you up against people like Tim H and Andy C and ultimately Martin B now he has a ZX12. No disrespect to any class C boys
and girls but these are all 750MC club champions and proven winners.
That's where you need to be Phil if you want to come first. You need to beat those boys. Again no disrespect to any class B or C racers.
As for class B. We need to take a close look at the engines and costs. Make people aware of that before they start building. There is no reason why
class B cannot be as popular as class C.
Al.
philgreenway Posted on: 24/08/2004 10:31:12
Blimey Gordon
14k And thats build it yourself,would you build me one for 15k? Unlike you I have limited time in the garage and would be looking to buy a car ready
built,to fine tune myself on the track as I did with my phoenix.
Phil G
GordonG Posted on: 24/08/2004 11:41:42
Phil
I'll happily build you a car for £15k. Let me know when you want to drop all the parts round and I'll get started.
I have far from unlimited garage time (full time job and, a GF plus usual social commitments) but I recognise that those less careful on the
contraception front have significantly less time to play with. OTOH, all my pits are paid for after Tony and Mr Brown have stolen their share, and I
usually end up giving the thieving sh1tes another 17.5% as well. We all have our crosses to bear.
AIUI the going rate for a class C Fury or Phoenix factory build is anything from around 12k up, and the emphasis would likely be on the
'up' to have a stab at winning races. (anyone with direct recent experience, or Mark, Martin or Ian want to chime in?).
Class A will add another 2-3k or so as discussed but its not necessarily such a massive hike if being first across the line is that important to
you.
What does cheer me up is the likes of Dustin going out there with a basic spec Fury and being highly competitive - it proves that it isnt necessary to
spend mega bucks.
G
Alistair Posted on: 24/08/2004 13:34:26
But Dustin is son of Warwick, the boy has got to be quick.
Talent always helps.
Arse.
Al.
GordonG Posted on: 24/08/2004 15:31:08
"But Dustin is son of Warwick"
Like I said, we all have our crosses to bear...
G
Martin Posted on: 24/08/2004 15:49:06
Phil
You have my complete sympathy, but there is next to no price difference class A and C.
Think about this - I paid less for a stock zx12 plus dry sump than I did for my blue printed blade with a chopped sump, but will have around 40hp more
to play with - when it is finally running!
Martin
mikefield Posted on: 24/08/2004 16:37:29
Martin, is a ZX12 a kind of Woolworths version of a Busa?
Seriously though, the class A cars are probably not that much more than a class C, (maybe 2K more) but we are seeing some significant price creeping
over the last year or so, I think Ian Gray would want the best part of 18K+ to build a turnkey race car of any flavour, and I suspect the KKW would do
much the same quote for a Fury.
4 years ago I probably paid less than 12K to build my first Fury, and then won a race or two "before" I started spending good money on it,
and with a bog standard scrapyard engine.
I too have looked at class A, but the cost of a new build, particularly if you have to pay for a turnkey car is starting to get heavy, but the
builders have to earn a living, and I suspect are not charging OTT prices for labour.
In any case I think I might just stay put if all you lot want to go class C, certainly make my life easier!
philgreenway Posted on: 24/08/2004 17:24:50
Ok
The options appear to be, convert an existing car approx 5k by the time you have added wheels tyres powercommander etc.Buy a car already in class A 15
- 20K.Build your own car 15 - 20K unless your name is Gordon, or buy a new turn key car 22+K Is there any regulation on new engines being used ie new
R1 if this happended to be the quickest engine, everbody would have to buy one to compete, who knows what engines will come out in the near future,
the regs only state horsepower not year of manufacture.At the moment busa or zx12 but for how long?
Phil G
GordonG Posted on: 24/08/2004 19:22:39
The regs limit claimed HP to around 180. Busa and ZX12r are near as dammit to this level. Any other class A engine should therefore be largely on a
par.
Unless manufacturers start lying about their power outputs (underestimating them) then we should be pretty safe.
The only worry I have is if, say, someone finds a Mongolian spec VFR1200 (claimed 190bhp in the UK) that's rated at 178 bhp but reverts to 190
when you swap the exhaust. Given that, does anyone have any objections to specifying in the 2005 regs that claimed outputs must be to UK spec?
G
mikefield Posted on: 24/08/2004 22:39:43
What if the bike was not available in the UK?
Californian spec bikes are derated to meet emmision regs?
UK spec *could* be a way forward..
2004 spec Fireblade may be a class A contender, and would certainly help the lardier drivers meet the weight limits?
The R1 would also be interesting option.
However, Phil started this thread to discuss how he wants to *win* a race not a class. I think he is not alone in thinking this, and contemplates a
move to class A in order to acheive this. We may get enough cars to run 2 grids next year, but this is not guaranteed. Running in class A is therefore
a safer option for you.
However, you might find that going to the Ginetta series or others may not have the same fun factor as racing with the RGB crowd. One of the factors
for me is to race with a nice bunch of people (well mostly anyway )
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