goin2fast52
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| posted on 11/2/05 at 12:35 AM |
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Lamborghini Style!
Somebody tell me why this won't work:
You know how Lamborghini puts the transmission in front of the engine? (Except on the Gallardo). Why won't this work in a Locost middy? Think
about it: You can use the exact same set-up as a regular, front-engined Locost, flip it around, add a jackshaft to the diff, and put it in the back!
This would be really useful for that guy who's building the middy based on the McSorley chassis (sorry, forget your name). I can't see
why it wouldn't work.
-Andrew
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kb58
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| posted on 11/2/05 at 12:55 AM |
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Why not just use a FWD drivetrain back there. Simpler and more compact.
Mid-engine Locost - http://www.midlana.com
And the book - http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/midlana/paperback/product-21330662.html
Kimini - a tube-frame, carbon shell, Honda Prelude VTEC mid-engine Mini: http://www.kimini.com
And its book -
http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/kimini-how-to-design-and-build-a-mid-engine-sports-car-from-scratch/paperback/product-4858803.html
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Dean
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| posted on 11/2/05 at 01:49 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by kb58
Why not just use a FWD drivetrain back there. Simpler and more compact.
higher center of gravity
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chunkielad
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| posted on 11/2/05 at 01:53 AM |
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I'm building a middy on the McSorley but it's a BEC middy. I don't see any reason why your idea wouldn't work but it'd
be a bit expensive wouldn't it?
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Browser
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| posted on 11/2/05 at 10:24 AM |
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As I remember it from the articles I have read, this setup resulted in a high-ish mounted engine and thus a higher than ideal centre of gravity. Plus
they ran their jackshaft through a sealed tube through the engine sump. Plus, it'd do funny things to correct direction of rotation of the
various gubbins wouldn't it?
Finally, why bother? Just get an Audi engine & box, sorted!
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goin2fast52
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| posted on 11/2/05 at 10:34 PM |
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As far as the technical stuff goes(putting the jackshaft through the engine), you all are probably right, except that a gearbox such as an Audi has
all the gears hanging of the back, so the Lamborghini way would put them closer to the CofG. And there's a direct linkage to the gearbox,
reducing play in the gearshift.
But I was thinking more on a cost standpoint, where if you started from a basic Locost kit, it would be easier to convert than a FWD drivetrain,
because everything is there, and you just need to flip it around.
Also, do I remember correctly that those Audi engines/gearboxes are more expensive than regular Locst fare?
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TheGecko
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| posted on 12/2/05 at 01:20 AM |
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quote:
But I was thinking more on a cost standpoint, where if you started from a basic Locost kit, it would be easier to convert than a FWD
drivetrain, because everything is there, and you just need to flip it around.
Well, with a FWD drivetrain, there's no flipping, swapping,
jack-shafts, extra bits etc at all. Just take the drivetrain, add 3 or 4 engine/gearbox mounts (depending on your chosen drivetrain) and install.
Suspension of your choice - I'm using struts but you could build a de Dion, double wishbone (not much room) or multi-link. The biggest thing to
sort is the gearchange and, if you use a model with a cable shift, that's not hard either.
As for the higher CoG comment further up the thread: at normal ride height my 20-valve Corolla drivetrain is sitting with the sump about 150mm off
the road. That's probably under 50mm higher than guys using the same engine in the front of a Locost would mount it. If you start putting a
diff etc under an inline engine, Lambo style, than you're almost certainly going to end up higher than that.
Whilst I find the Lambo style drivetrain attractive for a number of reasons (most to do with mid-engined AWD), I don't understand the apparent
dislike of common transverse FWD drivetrains mounted in the rear. If the great Mr Chapman was alive today I'm confident he would approve
completely of the Elise, which is exactly taht layout.
Dominic
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kb58
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| posted on 12/2/05 at 02:27 AM |
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Well put Dominic. The Lambo approach has it's place, for a less cost-sensitive application then what we typically do here. But if anyone wants
to give a go that's great. It's all about different approaches!
Mid-engine Locost - http://www.midlana.com
And the book - http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/midlana/paperback/product-21330662.html
Kimini - a tube-frame, carbon shell, Honda Prelude VTEC mid-engine Mini: http://www.kimini.com
And its book -
http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/kimini-how-to-design-and-build-a-mid-engine-sports-car-from-scratch/paperback/product-4858803.html
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Alan B
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| posted on 12/2/05 at 05:29 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by goin2fast52
.....a FWD drivetrain, because everything is there, and you just need to flip it around.....
Nope not even that...an FWD drivetrain just gets moved to the back...no flipping required....
Edit:
Ooops....should have Dom's reply first....
[Edited on 12/2/05 by Alan B]
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Dean
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| posted on 15/2/05 at 05:53 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by goin2fast52
You know how Lamborghini puts the transmission in front of the engine? (Except on the Gallardo). -Andrew
Actualy the Lamborghini MIURA has a transversely mounted v12. 
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goin2fast52
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| posted on 16/2/05 at 12:29 AM |
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Well, sorry 
I was referring to all Lamborghini's with butterfly doors.
Didn't Lamborghini do the engine-flip thing originally so they could use the same engine/gearbox with the front-engined Espada and
mid/rear-engined Countach?
[Edited on 16/2/05 by goin2fast52]
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TheGecko
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| posted on 16/2/05 at 03:12 AM |
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quote:
Didn't Lamborghini do the engine-flip thing originally so they could use the same engine/gearbox with the front-engined Espada and
mid/rear-engined Countach?
From memory (I'm at work right now and all of my Lamborghini books are somewhere in the library at home) the original driving force was space.
The V12 is a big engine and putting a conventional transaxle on the end of one is a recipe for a very long car. McLaren dealt with this in the F1 by
having Pete Wiseman come up with his very clever transverse transmission that has the axle line only inches behind the flywheel. In the Lambo,
however, the axle line is in front of the flywheel by virtue of the diff housing being part of the sump. The tradeoff is that the engine must
then sit higher which is not a good thing with a few hundred kilos of V12. The McLaren solution lets the engine sit a lot lower.
By the way, the "flipped" layout of the engine/transmission in the Countach (complete with AWD but automatic trans, not manual) can be
found in the XR311 military vehicle from 1969/70. This vehicle was very much the predecessor to the
Lambo LM001 off-roader - similar enough to lead to a law suit I believe 
Anyway, just more proof that very little is new under the sun.
Dominic
[Edited on 16/2/2005 by TheGecko]
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