Alez
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| posted on 23/5/05 at 07:40 AM |
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I've lost my transmission without a noise or slip!!
I was having a quiet and mild drive in the city. I downshifted and when I released the clutch pedal the engine wouldn't rev up or hold the car
anymore, there was no link between engine and car anymore. I could stop the car with brakes with the gear still engaged and the engine would stay
ticking over nicely. I could still engage the different gears as usual (no funny noises or anything) but none would move the car, neutral still lights
the neutral indicator in the dash. The rear wheels still link to the engine, I can see propshaft rotation at the engine side when I push the car. All
of this happened during the mildest of the rides. There were no noises or clunks, the engine looks good from outside, also I had noticed no clutch
slip at all previous to this. My car was then towed home where it is at the moment.
Although any repair needed may be beyond my skills, I'm thinking I could maybe try anyway because the car can't be driven, so things
can't get much worse really. If I take something apart and see nothing, well, I'll take the car in pieces to the garage, same hassle.
What would you do first of all? Would you take the clutch apart and have a look? Do you think it may be a gearbox problem? Can I take the clutch apart
with the engine in place at all or do I need to remove the engine first?
Am I right that the only related custom bits are the uprated clutch springs and those are not likely to fail? Reason I'm asking is in case I
have to take the car to the garage, I should think about getting shipped from the UK any custom bits they may need so they are ready at the right
time..
Cheers,
Alex
[Edited on 23/5/05 by Alez]
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 23/5/05 at 08:09 AM |
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Firstly check that the clutch cable hasnt simply stuck in position therefore holding the clutch open all the time. Also check the prop flange (the
adapter that joins the engine to the prop) and make sure the splines on that are all OK and it hasnt disengaged itself.
If its not that then I would probably drain the oil and take off the sump and clutch cover, both are a simple undoing bolt type affair. Once they are
off then check in the sump pan for bits of metal, if there's nothing there Id say its unlikely to be a mechanical breakage inside the engine so
would be looking at the clutch.
[Edited on 23/5/05 by ChrisGamlin]
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Alez
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| posted on 23/5/05 at 08:47 AM |
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Thank you Chris.
I should be taking the suggested steps.
Clutch cable not likely because the pedal still feels the exact same, like my foot is still pushing against the clutch springs or against something.
Anyway, still worth checking!!!
Prop flange looks good, I can rotate the engine shaft by pushing the car.
Cheers,
Alex
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 23/5/05 at 09:04 AM |
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You're sure that the prop turns when you roll the car back and forth? Try putting it in gear and then bringing the clutch up as if to pull away
- does the prop turn or not? If not then its definitely engine related. I guess it could be something like the output shaft on the gearbox has
sheared, although thats quite an odd thing to happen IMHO. if it was gears themselves then Im sure you'd hear all sorts of odd noises as you try
to engage it, so I would suspect clutch more than gearbox. One thing to check when you take the clutch cover off, undo the 5 bolts that hold the
springs into the clutch basket and withdraw the clutch pressure plate, then check the big clutch retaining nut to ensure thats not loose, I guess its
possible that this could have come lose so the clutch basket has moved therefore not getting drive off the crank, although to do this without making
any noises would be quite an achievement Id think!
Good luck 
[Edited on 23/5/05 by ChrisGamlin]
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Alez
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| posted on 23/5/05 at 10:23 AM |
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Thank you Chris.
Yes the prop turns when I roll the car back and forth. Then if I start the engine, engage a gear and release the clutch pedal as you say, the prop
doesn't turn. Whatever it is, it's inside the engine!
If you had been there to see how smooth was it for a failure! It went from everything alright to car not moving without ANY funnies in between.
This big retaining nut inside the clutch getting loose was actually the reason for the failure of a friends' bike, was a 80 cc not too similar
but symptoms were identical, so that's already a suspect..
Cheers,
Alex
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tony9876
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| posted on 23/5/05 at 11:47 AM |
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I had the exact same thing happen but on a bike. All that had happened was the last clutch plate had come past the point of no return and slipped
round. Took the cover of slipped it back in and off i went after adjusting the cable so it didnt over engage again
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Alez
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| posted on 23/5/05 at 11:52 AM |
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 Thanks Tony.
Can the clutch be dismantled with the engine inside the car? If yes, I'm quite willing to have a look myself after talking to you and having had
a look at the Haynes manual pictures..
Cheers,
Alex
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tks
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| posted on 23/5/05 at 12:03 PM |
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Think
your clutch is damaged..
the reason that your bike doesn't go forward is because it doesn't engage gear (else the Neutral light would go off)
the reason for this is the clutch doesn't work..
if you turn of your engine..
and select first gear do the light then go off??
its possible that you need to move your car a bit while selecting it.. (the gears (los pinones) have to come free)
if the light goes off try to move your car even more if it stucks then its good news..
Because then you are pressing against the compression of your engine..(sow clutch is engaged, gear is selected, box works fine)
if you hear the typical gear clicks but gears don't enter then you have a problem..  if the light is off and you can move the car freely then
i bet its the clutch who is stuck wide open....
(look at the clutch cable etc..., watch out with your fingerss because the springs forces are heavy!!)
well sadly that you aren't here would like to help you allot also here i have the acomodation of a garage! soow lifting etc is easy!
regards,
hope we talk a bit more some day..
Tks
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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tks
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| posted on 23/5/05 at 12:05 PM |
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yes
In your situ i think the clutch basket is situated in the front of the car..
at the back of the radiator..
will take a look at your pics right away..
TKS
Edit:
Yeah its deffinitly what i said. Do the following (alla hayness):
- Order a Clutch Basket seal (11euro's)
- Drain the engine oil (sump plug) (you need an 3.5 / 5liter can for it to store it temp.
- Take of care fully the clutch cover
- Analyse what you see, make pics for us if you aren't sure)
If you pressed the clutch tomuch then it will be stuck open so see space between the pates package)
- Resons for an open clutch..
- You adjusted it wrong..
- Your top/max pedal stop bolt has gone
- Spring(s) has broken ==> unbalance in the basket when pressured at max clutch came of when loosing it didn't gided...and become stuck..
to re fit the clutch the best thing i think ou can do is press the clutch and help it to fit again like it needs to go.. then loosen it bit by
bit..then readjust it sow it cant come of again...
will this should help you...
TKS
[Edited on 23/5/05 by tks]
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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Alez
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| posted on 23/5/05 at 01:53 PM |
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Thanks very much for the useful explanation.
>- Your top/max pedal stop bolt has gone
I have yet another possible reason for clutch stuck open: I don't have such bolt and never had!! ..And it looks like I've just learned
it's purpose the hard way!! I thought that the engine setting the limit for how deep you could push the pedal was the way it should be, but it
turns out that you can actually push too much.. so I'll need to limit that somehow.. Well it has lasted quite a lot of operations if
that's finally the problem.
Cheers,
Alex
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tony9876
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| posted on 23/5/05 at 05:31 PM |
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I would bet my bottom dollar on it mate if you havent got a pedal stop. I know i will probably get shot down for this but i have never bothered
changing clutch case gaskets unless they are damaged or leak as they arent under any great stresses(i speak from experience as i must have had clutch
cases of about 100 times bikes and bec).
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Alez
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| posted on 24/5/05 at 08:09 AM |
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Hi All,
Now the problem happens to be in the transmission, somewhere between the engine and the wheels, the only thing I can check visually (I can't
lift the car up at the moment) is the prop flange bolts which look good. Yesterday I said "The rear wheels still link to the engine, I can see
propshaft rotation at the engine side when I push the car" but now I can add "unless I stop the propshaft with my bare hand while rolling
the car back and forth". So when I do that, rotation arrives at the engine, but only if it finds no oposition, in which case it stops.
Unfortunately this strange behaviour had fooled me so I realized this after taking the whole clutch apart. On the negative side, I wasted one evening
tinkering with a clutch which is fine. On the plus side, I learned a lot and I'm very very happy about it (it's a lot of achievement for
me, having never done anything similar), also I have gained the confidence for trying other easy engine related tasks in the future. Overall I'm
very happy about the lessons learned.
So what kind of failure could be producing this behaviour? I can only think of one, and that is the link of ONE of the wheels to the diff (no LSD). I
was thinking about continuing this discussion under "running gear" but since BEC diffs are different I'll continue here. I
don't know what my diff is, it's not a LSD, there is a pic here:
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/upload/3diff.jpg
Neither the Cortina nor the early RWD Escort were ever sold in Spain. The Sierra was but I'm not sure that this is the version from which these
diffs are taken, I don't know if it's a RWD actually, the one sold here is the car in these pics:
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/upload/2sierra.jpg
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/upload/sierra2.jpg
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/upload/sierra3.jpg
So if the problem is actually in the rear axle / diff,
-Can a diff be opened and repaired? Is that worth trying?
-Do I have any alternatives for a different diff to be fitted which is mechanically compatible? (any LSDs from donors or Quaife). I'm not
particularly interested in adding a reverse (does that go there at all?), and definitely I don't want to add ANY weight, but I'd love to
have a LSD if it weighs the same. If I need to pay big €€€ for shipping a diff, I may well consider an upgrade.
Thanks a lot!
Alex
[Edited on 24/5/05 by Alez]
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 24/5/05 at 08:21 AM |
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Hi Alex
Is your car IRS or live axle? If its a live axle then I would think you have most likely broken a half shaft, this is one of the shafts that joins the
wheels to the differential. I would say its quite unlikely that you have broken the diff itself as they rarely just break like that and even if they
do break, it would be making lots of noise Im sure. If its the latter (a Sierra based IRS diff) then the solution may be even simpler, what may have
happened is that the hub nut that holds the drive shaft to the hub may have come undone and so the splined end of the driveshaft is no longer sitting
in the splines on the hub, therefore is not transmitting drive to that wheel. If it is IRS its unlikely to be a broken driveshaft because you would
see and hear it when it failed.
Try jacking it up at the back, then getting one person to hold one wheel whilst you turn the other, you should soon be able to feel which wheel is
disconnected from the drive.
Chris
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 24/5/05 at 08:33 AM |
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Sorry, just read your post again and seen your link to your axle - its a live axle from a Mk2 Escort from the 1970's like
this or this.
I would have thought you would have had them in Spain at the time, although probably nowhere near as many in number as here in the UK.
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Alez
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| posted on 24/5/05 at 08:58 AM |
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Thank you Chris.
I can confirm that Escort was never sold here. Whatever the solution (replace half shaft?), it looks like it will need to be shipped from the UK.
What's my next step if I confirm one wheel is spinning free? Can I take out the bits inside the rear axle without taking the whole thing out of
the car first?
I shall be back soon with results and pics.
Thanks!
[Edited on 24/5/05 by Alez]
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 24/5/05 at 09:30 AM |
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To take the half shafts out, you need to take the wheel off, take the brake drum off (can be a pain, just needs tapping off with soft hammer) and then
undo the 4 retaining bolts that hold the halfshaft into the axle, if one is broken then it should just pull out from here and you should only have
half a half shaft (a quarter shaft? ) with a broken end. Once thats out Im not sure how you get the other bit out of the diff as Ive never had to
do it, although its a fairly common thing so Im sure there's a proven method that someone on here could probably answer if you do find it is
that.
Are you sure you cant find anything over there, i dont understand spanish so Im not 100% sure on what I was doing but I just logged onto www.google.es
and searched for "mk2 escort" and some spanish websites came up so they might be worth contacting? You might find that people use them in
club rallying etc even though they werent available as a road car in Spain.
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 24/5/05 at 09:33 AM |
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Having said all that, it is possible that it could be the pinion gear/ bearing that has broken up, but usually when this happens you get a fair amount
of noise and vibration beforehand as they generally dont just break, they gradually wear and chew themselves to pieces over time. Also check the
flange on the front of the diff (where the prop bolts on) and make sure there is no movement in that.
[Edited on 24/5/05 by ChrisGamlin]
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Alez
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| posted on 24/5/05 at 09:46 AM |
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Thanks Chris, that's very useful advice. Actually it seems like the have been used in rallies here so that's a good starting point.
In order to check availability of axle bits here, does the supplier of a half shaft need to know the ratio of the diff or are the mk2 Escort half
shafts all the same?
Cheers,
Alex
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 24/5/05 at 10:03 AM |
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They are all the same apart from special uprated ones you can get from Quaife I think (these have a different uprated spline pattern for their own
relpacement diffs). You're very unlikley to have these though so you should be OK with whatever you can find second hand.
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Alez
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| posted on 24/5/05 at 10:11 AM |
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Excellent Chris, thank you.
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tks
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| posted on 24/5/05 at 12:20 PM |
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Buenas Dias senores y senoras!
Bueno/ Well,
i think that there are in spain Escort MKII
the problem would be more that we are in 2005 and if you ask about a car thats from the 1978 etc..pff..
well anyway if you want Alex i can help you i work on my car daily in a garage soow they should know..
TKS
p.s. as far as usefull information i can inform that Sierra's are over here plenty full incl 4x4 ones...
[Edited on 24/5/05 by tks]
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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Alez
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| posted on 24/5/05 at 03:07 PM |
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Thank you!
I've done a couple of phone calls including a company which specializes in finding parts but no joy. If everything goes as planned, I'll
be able to identify the bit(s) I need today or maybe tomorrow, then I'll check with you guys in this thread for a suitable source (either Spain
or UK).
Cheers,
Alex
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theconrodkid
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| posted on 24/5/05 at 05:55 PM |
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alez,sorry to hear that mate,if you take prop off from diff,remove both half shafts (slide hammer is best) undo the ring of nuts that hold diff onto
axle casing,withdraw diff (v heavy),the shafts break at the end of the splines where they go into the diff,a long drift and hammer will get the broken
part out,wash the diff casing out as well
who cares who wins
pass the pork pies
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tks
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| posted on 25/5/05 at 08:24 PM |
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hey alez...
If you pay me the half of the AutoRes trip
i will come and help you!
only if you want offcourse..
TKs
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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Alez
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| posted on 26/5/05 at 09:01 AM |
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It's the propshaft and I'm scared
It fouled me again The other day I put the clutch back together, put oil in the engine and then I started the engine just for a quick check. I
engaged a gear to check clutch and when I released the pedal I had loud noises and things happening. Stopped the engine, and checked transmission by
rolling the car back and forth. The new situation is that I get rotation out of the diff (it's the first time I see this because previously I
had not realized that I can actually check that visually without lifting the car up) but no rotation at all at the prop flange unlike previously!!!
Also I need to be very careful when rolling the car, I now get noises and clunks. Actually I decided to park the car by pushing it with the rear
wheels locked by the hand brake (cardboard under wheels to help sliding), with the help of my brother.
It's like there was something there about to break apart and now it did, bigtime. I should be able to lift the car up tonight and takes some
pics finally, but I have alredy noticed there's some bit sticking out of the bottom of the car midway between engine and diff, where the seats
are. It doesn't bother me too much to start outings in my car and end them being towed, but broken propshafts hitting things inside at big
rpms?? That's real crap
I'm sorry to have wasted your time asking for information on things that are maybe alright, the fault fooled me twice, I should have lifted the
car up before bothering you, I'm now trying to sort things out in the garage as I don't have the means to do this yet (I'm buying
stuff this very evening ).
Thanks a lot to you all for your help, I'm truly learning a lot from you. Also thanks Walter for your very kind offer, it's really
generous of you, let's just see what I find there for now.. BTW if you ever need anything from Madrid (including a place to stay), let me know.
Back soon with pics..
Cheers,
Alex
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