kaymar
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| posted on 25/5/05 at 11:09 PM |
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your views? age/power restricted license
Tragiclly recently in gloucestershire there have been several young people killed? in just acouple of weeks familys and friends have had their whole
lives torn apart!!! to quote one of the fathers who was arranging his young teenage son" HE WAS MY FRIEND MY BEST FRIEND NO ANGEL NO ROGUE, I
GAVE HIM MONEY FOR THE NIGHT, IN HIS COFFIN I GIVE HIM NEW NIKE TRAINERS as i refused before IN HIS COFFIN I GIVE HIM HIS MOBILE WITH LOADS OF
CREDIT wishing he can phone me to tell me he is safe, I GIVE HIM NEW LEVI'S JEANS to look smart ALSO I GIVE HIM WALKERS CRISPS HIS BEST
C/D's WITH PLAYER AND NEW DURACELL BATTERIES. I GIVE HIM MANY MORE PERSONNEL THINGS. !!!!!!!!!!! TOO LATE HES GONE?
I work for the AA and see as much if not more than most? the recovery garages are full to the gunnels of vehicles torn appart like paper, all of them
carrying passengers at the time, those cars could be carryiong you, me your son or daughter or grand children?
I believe that its time for a radical change in the law, similar to m/cycle restrictions. I appreciate all the arguments for/against restrictions but
life on the our highways is becoming just to dangerous for us/and your beloved to ignore any longer? your views pls
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alister667
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| posted on 26/5/05 at 01:13 AM |
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It's certainly an emotive subject, however the one obvious flaw I can see in it is with the likes of my own car that's about 130 bhp - not
much more than a family car, but stick it in a 450kg car, and you can eat most stuff round a track and it can be very scary in the wet - much more so
than a 300 bhp BMW for instance - becasue it'll break traction so easily.
In Ireland (North and South) car insurance is so insanely expensive for any driver under 25 the only cars most can afford to insure are Saxo's,
Nova's, Corsa's etc. Still tragedies do happen all too often.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/alister667/
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britishtrident
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| posted on 26/5/05 at 07:31 AM |
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Have been a few in my neck of the woods, one about 4 weeks back on a dangerous and very congested dual carriageway has now turned into the usual
pathetic roadside shrine adorned with flowers and football strip. by all accounts the lad was a decent sort he just didn't have the judgement
and experience to realise the speed he was doing was totally out of order for the road and weather conditions. One common factor in that incident
much of the truly appalling driving I see everyday is the number that are nearly new small hatchbacks driven by young drivers --- always models
that are sold with free insurance packages.
The lack of judgement of young drivers together with th gross over confidence given by the almost idiot proof handling of a typical modern fwd is a
major problem, FWD cars might be more forgiving of idiots behind the wheel but when pushed too far they tend to bite back very hard.
Near me there is a stretch of crash barrier on a slip road from a roundabout, until the junction was redesigned one particular length was hit very
hard on an almost weekly basis. For the life of me I couldn't figure out why the barrier was getting damaged in the way it was --- if I went to
that corner to fast I might hit the barrier but it would be much further into the corner and a glancing impact. Eventually I saw it happen a young
girl in a Fiat hatch went in to the corner about 30+ mph faster than even someone as insane as me would, of course she hit the brakes and turned
in at the same time the result was the car snaked and twitched about very badly then looked like it was about to do a 360 when at that point it
bounced off the barrier with just a very hard corner impact.
[Edited on 26/5/05 by britishtrident]
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 26/5/05 at 07:39 AM |
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The big difference between these days and 'when I were a lad' is that, in those days, if you did something stupid on the road or drove
badly then there was a fairly high chance of getting pulled over and bollocked by a traffic policeman. I'd drive from home 6 or 8 miles to work
and I'd probably pass 3 or 4 patrol cars going about their business - a good incentive to drive properly!
These days the only time you'll see a traffic cop is if you park in the wrong place...
DJ
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gys
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| posted on 26/5/05 at 07:45 AM |
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I don't really know the situation in the UK, but...
Age/power is too simple IMHO. The above-mentioned 130 bhp in a 1400 kg luxury car with ABS, ESP, TC, etc. - A4 / Passat / Mondeo / Vectra / etc... -
is a totally different experience than driving a BEC - I assume - or a 900 kg GTI - I know for sure -.
When you want to rule out hot-hatches on basis of power, you probably forbid them to drive their parents car on occasion as well (like picking up your
crippled grandmother for X-mas diner  ). Even if you restrict them to 75 bhp or so, it is still sufficient to reach insane speeds on country
roads.
Most people learn to drive nowadays in cars that are equipped with ABS, ESP, TC, etc., although their first car will propably don't have (all
of) these systems. Personally I find it interesting what influence this has...
[Edited on 26/5/05 by gys]
Man kann ein Auto nicht wie ein menschliches Wesen behandeln – ein Auto braucht Liebe...
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DarrenW
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| posted on 26/5/05 at 08:56 AM |
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That opening statement has sent shivers up my spine - fantastic speech but tragic all the same.
I cant see restrictions working. A 1.3 Nova can still do 90mph and kill people in the wrong hands. I do agree something should be done but im not
clever enough to work out what. Some limit will be better than nothing but some people will be counting down the days that they can get their hands on
some power and then will be like screaming banshees when it comes. Unfortunately they wont have the experience to handle it.
Perhaps the written test should be two fold - the second focussing on the wrecked lives and tragedies. Shock doesnt always work tho' does it.
You cant be taught experience.
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britishtrident
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| posted on 26/5/05 at 10:15 AM |
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Even small entry level hatchbacks because they have low drag coefficients now have quite high to speeds - I remember a road test on The last Nissan
Micra only 1000cc it was slated for being too slow but the top speed recorded was 100mph not too shabby for a 1000cc shopping trolley !
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 26/5/05 at 10:20 AM |
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With the cost of insurance Id say the amount of teenagers driving even vaguely powerful cars is a very small minority, so even with legislation like
this 95% of young drivers won't be affected. With only say 5% being affected, how many of those 5% actually have accidents that can be directly
attributed to the power of the car? I would guess a lot would have had the same crash regardless of whether they were driving a Fiat Panda or a
Ferrari, and you could argue in some circumstances doing the same speeds etc, driving the more powerful car with better brakes, better handling etc
might actually have avoided the accident occuring. Therefore id say the reduction in accidents would be very small.
I think a better bet would be for new drivers to display "provisional" P plates, maybe for 2 years after passing the test. You could then
for example restrict these drivers to 50mph on main roads in a similar way that lorries are limited to 40mph, and the sticker on the car acts as a
visible reminder to the driver that they aren't yet perceived as a fully qualified driver, so may tone down their ego a little. This system
could also then put in place other rules such as if they have a fault accident the P plate period gets extended for another year a bit like the
current legislation where if you get certain points on your license in the first few years, you retake the test.
[Edited on 26/5/05 by ChrisGamlin]
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clbarclay
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| posted on 26/5/05 at 10:32 AM |
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My experiance from college, was that small hatchbacks can still be bloody dangerous. When you think about it, a 1 litre fiesta is quiker than cars of
old like the morris 1000, of which quite a few were parked in ditches/hedges by young drivers in and around the 60's/70's (its not a new
problem).
With the aid of just a nackered deisel golf, I've managed to give myself one heck of a fright. Fortunatly nothing collided or got damaged apart
from a very healthy dent to my ego.
As for driving too fast, the only crash i've ever had, was below 10 mph. speed is only one factor.
The P late sounds an intersting idea, but my experiance says that some people can even after decades of driving are still a long way off being a good
driver.
[Edited on 26/5/05 by clbarclay]
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Dale
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| posted on 26/5/05 at 11:29 AM |
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Over here in Ontario Canada insurance is rediculously expensive. New Drivers under 25 or so probably average 3-4000 cnd $ or close to 2000#. We have
once company advertising an imediate 25% decrease in rates if you put a transponder or black box in the car and keep it under 120 km/h where the
highest speedlimit is 100. I imagain if you get in an accident that black box is there ticket out of paying for any claim.
For me at 40 and a good record a new kit car if you can find insurance for it would be between 2 and 3 thousand a year- clasic insurance will cover
the same car (minimum of 15 years old for around 300$ a year- as long as there are no licensed drivers with less than 10 years experience in the
household.
Dale
Thanks
Dale
my 14 and11 year old boys 22
and 19 now want to drive but have to be 25 before insurance will allow. Finally on the road
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omega 24 v6
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| posted on 26/5/05 at 11:42 AM |
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Its always sad to hear of people being hurt or killed especially the innocent victims.
This is not a new problem i remember when i was just passed my test the number of folk my age that were killed locally was quite high and we've
all done stupid things in cars at one time or another.
However speeds theese days are much higher with a family car being faster than a mark 1 mexico or just about any car from the old days.
Power of any kind is never the problem, power needs respect, its fine to have it when you need it, but abuse it and it will eventually bite you
back.
On a lighter side the politicians should also read the last paragraph.
So who's i favour of a new traffic law to cover the following
Driving in a manner that upsets other road users
driving to slow
driving to close together with no intentions of overtaking, and not leaving enough room for someone behind you to.( especially when i'm in a
slow white van )
the charge would be
Driving with a lack of respect for other road users.
Sorry for the rant but it's lunchtime and someone pissed me of this morning.
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Danozeman
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| posted on 26/5/05 at 12:57 PM |
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This is a very interesting topic. A few years ago my cousin who was 17 had just passed his test bought a fiat uno turbo as his first car. On the
road 2 months and lost it barrel rolled it into a river and died instantly from a broken neck. Now obviously driving like a tit had he had a slower
car it may not have happened. I am all for a restricted license.
That said even the newer 1litres go like poo of a shovel
Dan
Built the purple peril!! Let the modifications begin!!
http://www.eastangliankitcars.co.uk
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 26/5/05 at 01:09 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by omega 24 v6
However speeds theese days are much higher with a family car being faster than a mark 1 mexico or just about any car from the old days.
I have a Toyota Yaris - a 1300cc car. The rated power output is 85bhp, which is the same as the 1600GT X-flow in my car gave when it was in an
Escort! I suspect that Ford lied a bit when they claimed that output as well.
In the same way, my wife has a Daewoo Matiz with an 800cc 3-cylinder engine. She frequently does 80+mph up the main roads, and the car could do more -
and it has disc brakes and ABS. It can accelerate to 60mph in the same time as a 1600cc Cortina could do in the late 70's! Mind you, I
wouldn't trust it on a fast corner - small tyres and loads of body roll.
So limiting the power is unlikely to make a difference - having to show a 'P' and making some form of speed restriction may be more
realistic.
David
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NS Dev
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| posted on 26/5/05 at 01:18 PM |
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when I was 18 (I am 28 now, as of yesterday!) I had a 1.0 VW polo with a huge 45hp.
With 2 mates in the car with me (all of us with seatbelts on thankfully) I crashed, at only a relatively low speed (approx 50mph) having entered a
wet, gentle bend and hit some diesel on the road.
The car flipped end over end 3 times, barrel rolled 3 times and then caught fire with us in it.
We all escaped luckily (and I count myself lucky) but I could not help but wonder why it happened.
When I had saved up for a new car I then ignored my parents requests that I get another slow pile of crap, and got an old RWD Opel Manta 2.0 GTE.
This was SO much safer to drive than the Polo that it was just unreal!
I realised then why I crashed the Polo, there was just NO feel to the steering etc on the polo, it was all lightened up (no power steering, just no
caster either!!) so granny could drive it, and in the wet you had NO prior warning that the front was losing grip.
I FULLY agree with the statements about modern cars being so insulating from road conditions that they are a hazard, because it's
simple........they are!
I have since tried (a large number of!)FWD cars again, very briefly, and to be honest, they are total and utter shite to drive, being so forgiving to
a point, and then so very unforgiving in a panic situation.
There is no answer to young people killing themselves, small engine or big, it will happen exactly the same, as long as bravado exceeds talent,
crashes and deaths will happen.
Legislation will not solve it so lets not pretend it will and further the current nanny state that we live in.
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I love speed :-P
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| posted on 26/5/05 at 01:41 PM |
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What about me and Adam (phelpsa)? Why should i have to pay becuase you get stupid idiots, i am feed up at school, not being able to do stuff, becuase
you get the idots acting stupid and ruining it for the rest of us? And this is the same thing.
Phil
p.s. a simple solutation would be to just fit a bike engine
Don't Steal
The Government doesn’t like the competition
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 26/5/05 at 01:47 PM |
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Just the kind of hooligans were trying to beat into submission! No-one should have a licence until they are 30 at least! And the car must tow a
caravan at all times! And the driver must wear a flat cap when driving!
Angry of Tunbridge Wells
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I love speed :-P
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| posted on 26/5/05 at 01:52 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by David Jenkins
Just the kind of hooligans were trying to beat into submission!
Just shoot them, and let me and Adam drive what we want
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Peteff
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| posted on 26/5/05 at 01:54 PM |
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And the driver must wear a flat cap when driving!
Till they are properly qualified and then they get to wear a trilby. Women drivers get a headscarf, patterned when they qualify.
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 26/5/05 at 02:06 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Peteff
Women drivers get a headscarf, patterned when they qualify.
And don't forget the cauliflower hairdo...
...for the women, that is!
DJ
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britishtrident
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| posted on 26/5/05 at 02:18 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Peteff
Till they are properly qualified and then they get to wear a trilby. Women drivers get a headscarf, patterned when they qualify.
And drive a steam roller like the late lamented fred Dibnah ? :-)
Some 50 year old are dangerous two of my three closest calls in the last 2 months have been at the hands of 30 to 50 years olds and only one was a
simpler mistake the other two were deliberate dangerous very high speed (50+mph) incidents in 20 mph zones - one of the root problems is a total
disregard for the ordinary rules of the road, solid white lines are ignored, contractors traffic lights are ignored, 20 mph schools are ignore even at
3.30pm.
I agree is really needed is just more traffic police on the roads in normal hours -- not for vehicle checks but for a visible Police presence.
[Edited on 26/5/05 by britishtrident]
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 26/5/05 at 02:33 PM |
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<rant>
In Suffolk the major problem is geriatric drivers. Common sins include:
* wandering over the road (in and out of the car!)
* driving too slow (35mph in a 60mph zone is common)
* over-cautious driving (like stopping at a roundabout to have a good look, even though there isn't another car to be seen)
I'm not expecting them to drive like a loon - just to keep a sensible pace and show some consideration to others on the road.
</rant>
DJ
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Ferg
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| posted on 26/5/05 at 02:40 PM |
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My Tom is part way through his Velocity X-Flow build and regardless of the power from the little 1100cc lump of iron, which is a great insurance
lowerer, it's the two seats which I feel will have the best effect.
Boy in car versus mate in passenger seat who wants to "put your foot down!".
Boy tells his mate where to go.
Boy in car versus three (or four) mates who want him to "put your foot down!!" Mates win...peer pressure.
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benji106
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| posted on 26/5/05 at 02:57 PM |
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There is a power/age restriction for riding motorbikes, i had a scooter at 16, with a tope speed of 35mph i still managed to come off it a few times,
never going much faster than 15mph mainly due to stupid things like leaning too far or the embarrasing occasion when i hit the pavement  . all i had
to do to ride that was do a CBT which basically means riding round a car park for a while. I now have a 125 cc bike which puts out about 15bhp and
does 70mph, within a week of riding like a tit i had managed to come off, and now take more care. I have never been injured riding a bike, never hit
another vehical or person and every time ive fallen off its usually been as a result of riding like a cocky bastard, i realise its more difficult to
have such a restriction with cars due to the differing weights etc, but I feel the gradual increase in power on a bike means im a much better rider
than had i jumped on a zx6r straight after passing my test. i am restricted to 33bhp for 2 years after passing my test.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 26/5/05 at 02:59 PM |
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Interesting point that last one (one before last - slow typing!). The propensity for showing off is probably also proportional to the size of audience
too, which would bear out the same point.
You also feel pretty open to the world in a 7 and don't get that safe cocooned feeling that "normal" cars fool you with as well.
those plus the points I made about insulated modern fwd cars are all plus points for having a 7 as a first car methinks!
[Edited on 26/5/05 by NS Dev]
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 26/5/05 at 03:01 PM |
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My max speed is usually lower in my Locost than it would be in my Yaris, purely due to the impression of speed... mind you, round the bendy bits is a
different matter!
DJ
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