dodgyroger
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| posted on 8/3/03 at 04:54 PM |
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Fireblade engine won't start!
I couldn't get a spark at the plugs when I tried to fire up the Fireblade today. I took out a plug, grounded it and there is definatly no spark at
any of the leads.
There's 12v at the coils and at the ECU.
I bypassed the diode that figures whether the neutral/clutch/stand are in the right position and just grounded the green/white side stand wire from
the ECU
I didn't do anything with the light green neutral wire. I assume it's irrelevant as the engine runs in neutral or in gear.
Checked all wiring/earth etc
Any ideas any one?
Roger
http://www.dodgyroger.com/locost
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Rorty
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| posted on 9/3/03 at 04:36 AM |
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I can't remember if you've run the engine before, or if this is just a quick fire up. Asuming you've runit previously, I would first of all check
the battery. Even if it's showing power at various points, these jap bikes really must have a fully charged battery with all cells perfect. Before
you pull any more hair out, I'd borrow a battery that you know to be faultless.
Second search would be for a good earth. If the earth's even a little dodgy, you'll see the same results as with a lazy battery.
If you haven't had it running before, I would suspect one or more of the "safety" switches. Perhaps one's damaged. Even if you have earthed them,
they can play up.
The Jap solenoids have a habit of calving, especially if they've been idle for any length of time. By-pass it, just for the purpose of testing it,
and if faulty, then replace it.
Please post with results when you get it going.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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MK9R
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| posted on 10/3/03 at 07:51 AM |
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I had the same on my ZX9R. Are you using the blade key barrel? If not you need to insert a resistor between the +12V feed and one of the others
(don't know what colour on a blade) rather than just hot wiring it. It is a security feature on bikes. My dad knows a bloke who had the same problem
and spent about £300 on new bits trying to get a spark until was told about this.
see my hints and tips on my website for more info. Hope this helps
Cheers Austen
RGB car number 9
www.austengreenway.co.uk
www.automatedtechnologygroup.co.uk
www.trackace.co.uk
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dodgyroger
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| posted on 10/3/03 at 10:39 PM |
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Thanks for your suggestions Guys.
I have not had the engine up and running before so there are lots of variables here. Also the bits were sourced from several sources.
I spoke with MK Engineering who put me on to their Fireblade guru Steve. He confirmed that my wiring is correct. My particular engine RRV does not
have an anti theft device but some models do require a 3.9V feed to the ECU.
Steve did point out that Fireblades need perfectly clean plugs. If they get fuel on them you should replace them - gulp! or degas them by burning off
the excess petrol on a gas ring or blow torch. I tried that also but still no luck.
The Honda Workshop manual has an excellent diagnostics section but I have not go some of the test equipment needed to check out the coil and ignition
pulse generator beyond a basic continuity test which is not meaningful.
However, StuartA who lives near to me is hoping to get his engine running this week. When he does he has kindly agreed for us to swap bits until his
engine stops working or mine starts!
Roger
http://www.dodgyroger.com/locost
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 12/3/03 at 10:31 AM |
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It certainly sounds like the ECU feed issue mentioned above, even though your engine shouldnt have that issue. Are you certain you havent got an RRW
or RRX ECU? Some breakers dont keep all the parts from the same bike together, so when you ask for an engine, loom and ecu etc, they just pull the
individual parts from their parts bins. Different ECUs and looms on different engines isnt a major issue as far as I know, as long as the later ECU
has a carb position feed (only on the later carbs), and also that the later ECU has the feed on the pink wire coming from the ignition barrel.
If your loom has a pink wire coming from the ignition barrel connector, get a 390 Ohm resistor between this and a 12v and see if it fires then.
Chris
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dodgyroger
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| posted on 12/3/03 at 11:12 AM |
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Chris,
Good point about the wrong ECU (CDI). I sourced the parts from several breakers.
My loom matches the circuit diagram for an RRV but how do I tell if it’s an RRV CDI unit? There are no legible markings on the unit.
Do you happen to know which pin the pink anti-theft device goes to so that I can try hot wiring it?
Thanks,
Roger
http://www.dodgyroger.com/locost
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 12/3/03 at 02:06 PM |
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I'm not sure how you tell, they all look the same. I guess a Honda dealer might be able to tell you from the serial number possibly?
I cant remember the pin location off hand, and I'm not with the car/haynes manual until the weekend now, and its a bugger to get at my CDI. Has
anyone got an RRW/X loom out there with a pink wire who can tell us which pin its on?
Chris
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 12/3/03 at 03:09 PM |
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just checked mine, not got one, but it is an early one, pre 95..........sorry chaps.
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dodgyroger
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| posted on 12/3/03 at 04:56 PM |
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I managed to get a 330 Ohm resistor and two 225 Ohm. If I remember my O level physics correctly (Mr Thompson would be so proud of me), I can join the
two 225’s together in series to give about 450 Ohms. I assume 450 is a better choice than 330 although 390 is the best?
I just need to figure out which pin the pink wire goes to. There are four free connectors but I'd rather not play Russian roulette!
Roger
http://www.dodgyroger.com/locost
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dodgyroger
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| posted on 13/3/03 at 11:39 AM |
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I received an email from Ian Grey at Stuart Taylor Motor Sport who suggested that I need to hang a 3.9 v zena diode off. We have been talking about
390 Ohm resistors to this point?
Does this make sense to anyone?
Still need to know which pin the pink wire hangs off?
Roger
http://www.dodgyroger.com/locost
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andyd
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| posted on 13/3/03 at 12:54 PM |
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Roger,
Your engine is a RRV yes?
Same as Stuart and my RRT in terms of wiring I believe and according to the Haynes manual for RRT/RRV you shouldn't have a pink wire.
I've not looked that closely at ours but I don't think we have any immobiliser circuit on the ICM.
I'll try to take a picture of ours and the colour of the wires that go into it but it may not be 'til Saturday. You should then be able to use the
Haynes wiring diag to sort out what's what.
Andy
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 13/3/03 at 02:41 PM |
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Andy, what we were thinking was that Roger might not have an RRV CDI, especially as he sourced it from a seperate place to the engine itself.
The proper way of doing it is a Zener Diode, but I havent got a clue about that kinda thing, I think you'd need quite a big/rare/expensive one so I
recall someone saying on the Yahoo BEC list. A resistor works fine though, Ive had one in my loom for about a year now with no problems, and if
nothing else, the cheap n cheerful resistor solution will tell you whether we are barking up the wrong tree or not.
Chris
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dodgyroger
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| posted on 13/3/03 at 03:03 PM |
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Andy, Chris,
Having checked out all the other components the current suspect is the CDI unit and as Chris says, the theory is that I may have inadvertently
purchased a later CDI that does require the pink wire.
Because my loom is RRV I am having to figure out where the pink wire would have been and wire it in . If this works I have saved buying a new CDI
unit. If it doesn't then it's back to plan A (swap CDI units with Stuart).
BTW, I managed to get a Zener diode of the spec suggested, from Marlin's on-line (pt No QH04E) for a couple of pence so I ordered 5 taking my order
over 10p (plus £2.40 postage and VAT!). It matches the spec sent to me by Stuart-Taylor so fingers crossed. However given your comments Chris about
the price of these things they may not be of the right spec and may pop. I'll put one in the post to you if you U2U me your address (although you
should probably let me be guinea pig first!)
Roger
http://www.dodgyroger.com/locost
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 13/3/03 at 03:36 PM |
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Thanks for that, I might be wrong about the expense of the Zener diode then, give it a whirl once you find out where that pesky pink wire goes. If it
works OK then I wouldnt mind something as a spare just in case mine decides to go pop.
BTW, I dont think I'll be down at my parents this weekend (working! ), so might not get a chance to have a look at the CDI I'm afraid. Ive posted
on the Yahoo BEC list but so far nobody has come back to me. Couldnt Ian Gray tell you what plug it was in, he must have a few looms and CDI's laying
around.
Chris
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dodgyroger
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| posted on 18/3/03 at 09:53 AM |
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Well I had no luck getting the engine fired up this weekend with either the diode or the resistor. Using a multimeter I managed to determine that of
the three spare pins on the CDI unit, one was grounded and two have no resistance or current drawn through them. One pin does draw a small current so
I tried the diode (both ways around) and the resistor on this pin but still no spark. Perhaps the theory that this is an RRW or RRX CDI may not
hold?
I got a new digital multimeter and rechecked the coils and ignition pulse generator and all are bang on the spec as detailed in the Haynes manual. I
retested the continuity of every wire in the ignition system also so It's still pointing to a CDI unit problem but until I try another unit I'm
stumped.
The good news is that I have progressed well on the general electrics front. I have stripped out over half the wires from the sierra wiring loom which
are not needed and have identified all the circuits I now need so I'm about to start taping up the wires. The sierra fuse box is looking quite
empty!
Roger
http://www.dodgyroger.com/locost
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StuartA
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| posted on 18/3/03 at 12:08 PM |
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Hi Roger,
Sorry I haven't been in touch. Still haven't fired up our beast, but we are getting there! Let you know as soon as we have progress in our camp
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dodgyroger
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| posted on 19/3/03 at 12:50 PM |
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Fireblade engine won't start. It will now!
The engine fired up!!!
However it was not straight forward. The bike breakers took pity on me and agreed to exchange my CDI unit despite me buying it 6 months ago on the
basis that I believed it worked but was not an RRV. The new one they sent me had “Fireblade 1998” written on it which is an RRW not an RRV!
AAAAGGGGHHH!
So, at least knowing that I now had an RRW CDI I decided to try the anti-theft circuitry again but which pin! I measured the resistance across the
pins with my multimeter and one of them read differently to the last CDI. It measured about 1800 Ohms to ground with the 39Ohm resistor attached where
as the other ground pin measured 1 (direct ground) suggesting to me that there was some active circuitry on the other side. Anyway I decided to try it
and bugger me it fired up first pop settling down to a nice tick-over.
So if anyone else has this problem, check out the wiring schematic at http://www.dodgyroger.com/locost/RRWCDIunitwiring.doc
Many thanks to all who contributed to solving this for me. 10p worth of resistor solved the problem saving me £100 for a new RRV CDI. This forum
really works!
Roger
http://www.dodgyroger.com/locost
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 24/3/03 at 01:12 PM |
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Glad to hear you got it sorted Roger!!
Chris
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