Hi all - After my recent posts about our hideous hot water/heating system I called the heating engineer guy out yesterday.

He found the following issues -

Shower has been incorrectly plumbed in (it's pulling hot water from the tank (and therefore sometimes air) He said some sort of Surrey dip thing would sort it?

There's a blockage/air lock in the hot system (we forced cold down the hot and hot water pressure is better now)

The three way valve is broken (motor when powered up forces the valve arm round too far and it jams) He's disconnected the power to it now and left it on manual.

But....

Today we have no hot water....and no heating either!! Poor baby is upstairs and it's freezing up there.

Anyone any quick ideas? If I "advance" the hot water the boiler kicks in. If I "advance" the heating....feck all. Boiler does nothing!

We're really struggling here and no hot water was bad enough but now no heating either?

Heating engineer will be back next week but as far as he was concerened he left us with a "manual" situtation - Just using the programmer to do HW and HT but no....feck all of both!


HELP please LCB'ers!

sounds as though there is a thermostat on the CH, some boilers have a set of controls on the front panel. It may be that the heating bloke set that to off, or HW only.

With regard to the 3way valve, if you want CH you will need to set that to the correct position, so it pushes the hot water around the rads rather than the tank.

Start at the front panel on the boiler, post pics if your not sure

hth

It massively depends on how its wired..

It sounds to me like the pump isin't working, this may have been activated by and end switch in the motorised valve which he's now disconected?... on the whole it sounded like he had a good idea what he's doing to so i'd be suprised if its that.

I'd double check the valve is all the way over and lactched in the manual position

Thanks guys - He didn't even look at the boiler or the control panel (ACL Lifestyle?) in the utility room so it's nothing that's changed on those - at least locally.

Valve is all the way over and pushed in (it didn't used to do that before he looked at it - it was just floppy) I can pull it towards me 20mm and it slowly returns to rest back 20mm. I can pull it out too so it goes back completely - about 35 mm but it doesn't lock in this far position.

There is a thermostat down by the stairs. It clicks at 14deg when I rotate it from side to side.

Does any of that make sense?

Thanks again

So it sounds like its a spring return valve if he's disconected the power..

In which case the latching position should be at the opposite end to where it springs back to,
I.e Something powers it open when its "calling for heat" and then it springs back to the closed position when it stops calling, so it should latch in the opposite position to what it springs back to.


If the valve was just floppy before this sounds like it was already powered open... when the power was switched off to it the tension should have returned.

[Edited on 3/3/11 by MkIndy7]

If you pull the valve lever against the spring pressure, when it reaches the end of the slot there should be a notch that you move the lever into, to hold it in place, usually upward.

Must tripe quicker

[Edited on 3-3-11 by 40inches]

There's a micro switch inside the motorised valve. When the thermostat calls for heating the motor opens the valve.

When the valve is fully open the microswitch inside triggers the boiler to start.

Mine fails on a regular basis about every two years, fixed by changing the motor/actuator.

If your desperate for heat, take the motor off, open the valve using a pair of pliers on the tang on the pipe work the bit the motor turns, and short out the micro switch, be careful its all mains voltage.

There is - That's where the switch is resting and where he left it too.


Does this help?

Take off the white bit usually two screws, there will be a tang that rotates underneath this actuates the valve, the plastic bit has a flex to it with 4 cores two for the motor two for the switch which is encapsulated inside.

If you can find out what type it is you may find a wiring diagram on the net, mine has red and a blue for motor two oranges for switch.

These are usually connected into a multi connector somewhere nearby short out the pair for the switch and you should here the pump run and boiler start, do it with power off obviously.

It will not matter where you put the valve position manually if the micro switch is duff!!

[Edited on 3/3/11 by big-vee-twin]

Thanks BVT - Does it sound like the man left it in the wrong position then?

There is a connection box to it but no so keen to short out the wires - there's millions of them and then don't appear to be labelled or coded!

Is there any way I can get it in the right position by adjusting the plastic slide? I thought he's left it in the position that's do us heating and hot water.

Thaks again

Unfortunately if the boiler doesnt start when you open the valve manually lik you have already tried its usually the micro switch wich is inside the valve and cant be serviced you have to replace the head.

Yopu can get them from screwfix and places like that if you get the same type its a case of swapping wire for wire.

Until you can get one its the shorting out trick im afraid.

Feck. He's due back next week as we apparently have the older type that needs to be replaced with the brass T piece below it. He said once that's done I/we could replace the top unit on it's own as the newer versions are servicable?

Gutted we're now in a worse position then we were!

Thanks BVT

The fix the plumber has done would work if the motor in the valve has burnt out, but if the switch is bust then it will not work, sounds like when he messed with it it was lucky and made the switch work for a short time.

Usually they just screw off, the only way then is to trace the wiring and try to short out the switch

quote:

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Originally posted by big-vee-twin
The fix the plumber has done would work if the motor in the valve has burnt out, but if the switch is bust then it will not work, sounds like when he messed with it it was lucky and made the switch work for a short time.

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You should hear the switch inside but it doesn't mean the contacts are making good connection.

When the motor opens the valve there would be play in the manual switch and tension once it returns, which proves the motor is ok but as before if the switch is not working then your system is dead.

Bugger. Some cold and smelly nights ahead for me and the family!

Thanks BVT

Shame Im not closer could come and sort if you.

If you trace the wires back to the terminals draw a picture of how there connected marking the colours you can take out the wires (after switching off) and with your meter you can test the valve out, you should see a reading in ohms across the motor (if its healthy assume it is) and open circuit across switch.

Then bridge between the connections in the terminal strip to which the switch wires were connected. If you get it wrong you will only blow the fuse. If it is the switch that is faulty things should start to work again.

Thanks BVT, really kind offer. I'll try and have a crack at it after I've spoken to him tomorrow. There only seems to be about 6 cables in question, 2 of those must be the motor, so only four or so to track.

If I can short those two wires together what will that achieve? Will that be HW and HT or just HW or just HT?

Anything would be good at the moment - personally I can live without heating, but that'd be better for baby. We can always boil kettles for her bath and washes.

Progress of sorts BVT!

Dared to take the lid off and can see the arm and although I can see it and hear it hitting the MSW nothing happened. I've jammed in my little screwdriver (I'm a qualified idiot - don't try this in your own home) and it's pushed the MSW yet further and there's something happening.

Boiler is now on downstairs and the radiators are ticking. No heat from them at all yet though. Is there anything else I should/can do?





Note my shocking disregard for electrical safety....

Turning the thermostat up and down now shuts off and starts the boiler with the screwdriver jammed against the microswitch.

Seems to be a bit of hot water now but no heating. I've put the switch back to the rear position - not locked in to see if that's the correct position for the heating but as yet no joy.

It's progress anyway - something's working and I've my hairs not all frizzy and burny yet!

'Light blue touch paper and stand well back'

Just to let you know I am an Electrician so not blind leading the blind, the valve diverts water to rads or hot water you just need to work out which is which

Kev

Thanks for all your help Kev. I've now removed the motor and shroud. The arm only turns a little - perhaps 20(8 o'clock to 10 o'clock?) degrees is the full extent of travel. I've removed the springs too so I can point the valve/arm in either direction.

With the arm pointing at 8 both microswitches can be seen and heard to activate. When the heating is selected downstairs you can hear the boiler fire. Leaving the arm there and selecting hot water the boiler goes off downstairs.

So....If that makes any sense.....What position should the arm be in 9 (in middle) 10 or 8?

The shower is still having a fit when I turn it on....Should I quit while I'm ahead and get a plumber to fit a normal electric shower?

Fed up with it - would love a nice warm shower!

Thanks again

I'm not a plumber or spark .....

If you run the shower on full cold what does it do? Just wondering if that runs fine. If you run it on full hot (without heating on) what does it do? If it sputters its possibly got an air lock in it as it should still run fine without the heating on just provide cold 'hot' water.

Just thought i'd mention it as once you get hot water you may still have a shower issue.

On my old diverter valve (which is still in the garage) it only moves about 20 degrees. If you want me to go and take pictures of it let me know.

Thanks for that Mike.

On full cold the shower runs well. Freezing cold but a good pressure. If you start to increase the hot then it starts to splutter and the pump starts to whine - scream almost. The hotter you attempt the worse it gets.

We did have an air lock - He thought the shower was creating these itself. We removed this by forcing the cold up the hot.

He thought the shower had been badly fitted too - it's original to the house and about 16 years old but given decent hot water it's really good.

Thanks Mike - any thoughts?

why don't you just drain system and replace the 3 port valve......sounds like you need surrey flange for drawing hot water into shower

Thanks for that Dean. Is a Surrey Flange expensive or difficult to do? It is what the engineer recommended too.

http://www.wickes.co.uk/content/ebiz/wickes/resources/images/gil/46.pdf

Shows how your supposed to fit a shower pump and the advantage of a surrey flange.

Didn't realise you had a pump on the shower ..... the surrey flange seems to be the solution. A test would be if you could bleed the shower and then run it with the hot water turned off (ie no bubbles in the hot tank). If it ran well then, it would indicate it needs the surrey flange. If its still problematic then i'd guess its pump related.

Probably best to try and fix one problem at once otherwise you'll complicate matters (which means my posts aren't helping - sorry).

ps quick google says surrey flange under 40 quid to buy. They're the easier flanges to fit so probably budget a 100 to 150 quid for a plumber to buy and fit.

[Edited on 4/3/11 by MikeR]

quote:

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Originally posted by MikeR
http://www.wickes.co.uk/content/ebiz/wickes/resources/images/gil/46.pdf

Shows how your supposed to fit a shower pump and the advantage of a surrey flange.

Didn't realise you had a pump on the shower ..... the surrey flange seems to be the solution. A test would be if you could bleed the shower and then run it with the hot water turned off (ie no bubbles in the hot tank). If it ran well then, it would indicate it needs the surrey flange. If its still problematic then i'd guess its pump related.

Probably best to try and fix one problem at once otherwise you'll complicate matters (which means my posts aren't helping - sorry).

ps quick google says surrey flange under 40 quid to buy. They're the easier flanges to fit so probably budget a 100 to 150 quid for a plumber to buy and fit.

[Edited on 4/3/11 by MikeR]

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