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Duratec Ignition Map

davidimurray - 1/1/15 at 03:35 PM

Anybody have a map/ ignition curve for a standard 2l Duratec running on TPS they would be kind enough to share?

Looking for a starting point for my megajolt setup.

Cheers

Dave

SPYDER - 1/1/15 at 05:09 PM

Found this...

And this...

Both the above for future reference. Assuming you need a 10x10 table you could try the following...

rpmBins=5,12,15,20,25,30,35,40,45,50
load100 14,17,15,24,24,25,27,28,28,28
*load90 14,17,15,24,24,25,27,28,29,29
*load80 14,17,15,24,25,25,27,28,30,30
*load70 14,17,16,24,25,25,27,28,30,30
*load60 14,18,20,24,26,26,28,28,33,33
*load50 14,19,21,24,27,27,28,29,35,35
*load40 14,20,24,25,27,27,29,29,37,37
*load30 14,21,25,26,28,28,30,30,38,38
*load20 14,21,25,26,28,28,30,30,38,38
*load10 14,21,25,26,28,28,30,30,38,38

[Edited on 1/1/15 by SPYDER]

davidimurray - 1/1/15 at 07:07 PM

Thanks Spyder

I found the same ones.

I was a bit suspicious of the first as there seems to be a lot of very low throttle load sites and loads of advance at high rpm low throttle. I believe this map was used on a late (I,e, better flowing head) engine.

The second one looks more sensible, my only concern was that the load axis seems to be scaled for TPS, although it doesn't go to 0, but the axis says KPA

radom - 1/1/15 at 08:27 PM

http://locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=156937&page=2

SPYDER - 1/1/15 at 10:25 PM

The increased advance at high rpm/ low load is fine. Here, for comparison, is my 12x12 advance table for 3SGE 2litre16V engine.
It is scaled for TPS. It reaches low 40's in the cruise area. Tickover advance is 15 degrees at 950 revs. The four 15 bins in a square around tickover give a very stable advance.
Max advance at WOT is 34 degrees, somewhat more than for a Duratec. The advance at WOT is "all in" by 2800 rpm. This figure will probably be higher for a Duratec, maybe 3500 rpm.
Is it a 10x10 table that you need?

davidimurray - 1/1/15 at 10:51 PM

quote:
Originally posted by SPYDER
The increased advance at high rpm/ low load is fine. Here, for comparison, is my 12x12 advance table for 3SGE 2litre16V engine.
It is scaled for TPS. It reaches low 40's in the cruise area. Tickover advance is 15 degrees at 950 revs. The four 15 bins in a square around tickover give a very stable advance.
Max advance at WOT is 34 degrees, somewhat more than for a Duratec. The advance at WOT is "all in" by 2800 rpm. This figure will probably be higher for a Duratec, maybe 3500 rpm.
Is it a 10x10 table that you need?

Hi Spyder

Yes it's a 10x10 map I'm looking at. To me your map looks sensible and reasonably flat/smooth. If you take the worse case in your map, a full lift off at the redline then your map goes from 34-38 degrees so only gains 4 degrees, the first duratec map goes from 27-50 degrees a gain of 23degrees which seems a bit extreme!

SPYDER - 1/1/15 at 11:16 PM

Until recently the lower rows of my map were at 44 degrees. I have just gone onto fuel injection which has allowed me to run weaker in the same area. Research on the net led me to reduce the advance in this area from 44 to 38.
Another thing to watch for when using TPS is "effective WOT".
At, for instance, 2000 revs then 50% tps is effectively wide open, it is giving all the air that the engine can take. So the figure on the top row at 2000, 24 degrees, is repeated for all tps bins down to half throttle.
The effect reduces at higher revs as can be seen on the map.

BaileyPerformance - 2/1/15 at 11:01 AM

Sorry chaps, hope you don't mind me saying but all the maps shown on this post are miles out.

For example, no engine needs 26deg at 700RPM

34deg is slightly too much, Duratec needs between 28 and 32deg all in after 4000RPM

Stock Duratec needs around 10deg at idle, more if long duration cams are fitted but no more than 20deg.

SPYDER - 2/1/15 at 11:17 AM

Putting the 26 deg/700 rpm to one side, where do you think my map needs attention? I'm genuinely interested. Do you think that the "all-in" at 2800rpm is too early? I know it seems low but I've not heard any pinking. Its going on the rolling road soon and the ignition map was one of the main reasons. If I can get it as close as reasonably possible beforehand will it save time? The car is going like stink and seems noticeably quicker than when it was on carbs. Should the top line be increasing a couple of degrees after peak torque revs?
FWIW I dont like the two duratec maps I found on the net either.

My engine ticks over at 950 rpm. The 26 deg at 700rpm is an attempt to help it pick up if it stumbles below tickover. Is this misguided?
Should the left column be 20 all the way down?
I hope you don't mind having your brains picked.

Geoff

BaileyPerformance - 2/1/15 at 11:57 AM

quote:
Originally posted by SPYDER
Putting the 26 deg/700 rpm to one side, where do you think my map needs attention? I'm genuinely interested. Do you think that the "all-in" at 2800rpm is too early? I know it seems low but I've not heard any pinking. Its going on the rolling road soon and the ignition map was one of the main reasons. If I can get it as close as reasonably possible beforehand will it save time? The car is going like stink and seems noticeably quicker than when it was on carbs. Should the top line be increasing a couple of degrees after peak torque revs?
FWIW I dont like the two duratec maps I found on the net either.

My engine ticks over at 950 rpm. The 26 deg at 700rpm is an attempt to help it pick up if it stumbles below tickover. Is this misguided?
Should the left column be 20 all the way down?
I hope you don't mind having your brains picked.

Geoff

Hi Geoff,
All in at 2800rpm is fine for 2 valve per cylinder big capacity engines like a SBC, as the burn is slow compaired to a modern engine with the plug in the middle of the chamber. This is also the reason a SBC needs at least 36deg total where a duratec is more like 28-32

For a modern engine "all in" shouldn't happen before 3500RPM, 4000 to be safe as your risk loss of power and maybe detonation. The only way to get the advance curve right is to map it on the dyno, the way we do it is crude but effective, we make a educated guess and tap in a rough timing map, then make a dyno pull, (checking fuelling too) then make any required alterations, another dyno pull, overlay the previous printout and note any drops / spikes in the power curve. Keep going until the power curve is high as it can be. (at all times chking the fuelling which needs to be 12.5AFR WOT)

Adding a couple of deg at very high RPM can sometimes help power as the engine comes off the cam, maybe just keeping it pulling for alitte bit longer.

Using the timing to stop stalling when cold or in traffic is a good idea, but suggets you opt for 10deg at 950RPM, 16 max at 700RPM only at close throttle, 10deg at low RPM with throttle open.

Hope that helps.

davidimurray - 2/1/15 at 12:59 PM

Spyder / Bailey

Thanks for the info - it's good to see this sort of stuff being discussed as it tends to be a subject that doesn't get much discusson.

For now I think I will go with this version as a safe starting point.

Thanks again

Dave

johnemms - 2/1/15 at 02:10 PM

Cant find it on the web but...
On the rolling road the guy adjusted AFR rich and lean runs and it made hardly any difference..
However.. moving the ignition only a degree or two either way lost loads of bhp ..

If I find the page i'll post it here ...

Oddified - 2/1/15 at 02:44 PM

quote:
Originally posted by davidimurray
Spyder / Bailey

Thanks for the info - it's good to see this sort of stuff being discussed as it tends to be a subject that doesn't get much discusson.

For now I think I will go with this version as a safe starting point.

Thanks again

Dave

A bit to safe really, the engine will feel dull/flat at anything but wot. The extra timing at part throttle/cruising makes a huge difference to the way a car drives and fuel economy (if the the latter matters much in our 'fun' cars! lol). Also as already suggested the slight ramp up in timing below idle rpm really does help a lot for a steady idle speed as it warms up and also variable loads (rad fan and lights on etc).

Ian

SPYDER - 2/1/15 at 02:48 PM

Thank you BP. I'll make the suggested changes and see how it goes on the dyno.
The car was dyno'ed a couple of weeks ago whilst still on carbs and showed no pinking on a WOT pull. It was running a bit rich though. Could this have been preventing pinking? Its now set for 12.5 at WOT in the AFR target table. I'm presently using VE Analyze and datalogs to get the map somewhere near. It already feels loads quicker than when on carbs. Mikuni 40's 36mm chokes.
Its now on GSXR 42mm bodies.

flak monkey - 2/1/15 at 05:28 PM

This is the ignition map from my blown duratec - you could just ignore the above 100kpa lines though if you want.

It was set up on the dyno at Northampton Motorsport and ran really well

BaileyPerformance - 2/1/15 at 05:51 PM

No prob to set (and use) the AFR target when using the auto tune, but I suggest you do not use it after 50% throttle. Closed loop should only be used part throttle to trim the Fuelling for better MPG.

I guess your trying to save dyno time by doing some mapping yourself, but a good operator will go over ALL the setting in the ECU and tune all areas of the VE table and optimise the ignition...... Like I do ;-)

www.facebook.com/baileyperformance
www.baileyperformance.co.uk

Full day for Ł250.

BaileyPerformance - 2/1/15 at 05:55 PM

quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
This is the ignition map from my blown duratec - you could just ignore the above 100kpa lines though if you want.

It was set up on the dyno at Northampton Motorsport and ran really well

A minus timing figure at full throttle (atmos 100kpa) ? Seems very odd. More like 10deg.

flak monkey - 2/1/15 at 06:18 PM

Look at the RPM though, they are unused areas of the map - worked well enough for me.

The engine idled at 1000rpm and around 35kPa

BaileyPerformance - 2/1/15 at 06:28 PM

quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
Look at the RPM though, they are unused areas of the map - worked well enough for me.

The engine idled at 1000rpm and around 35kPa

If it worked, it worked :-) but you would hit 100kpa when you floored it from idle, meaning you would have very small amounts of timing, still low at 2000rpm. This would just make the engine feel flat until it was on boost.
291bhp is good power thou

flak monkey - 2/1/15 at 06:32 PM

If it did, I never noticed - if you floored it from tick over in 1st it just stayed put and created a lot of tyre smoke!

Interestingly I remember the losses (crank to wheel) from the dyno day - which seemed really low at 20hp. So the wheel power was actually 271bhp.

Interestingly the ignition map ended up almost identical to the supercharged Caterham duratec.... I've got that one too somewhere

[Edited on 2/1/15 by flak monkey]

BaileyPerformance - 2/1/15 at 06:41 PM

quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
If it did, I never noticed - if you floored it from tick over in 1st it just stayed put and created a lot of tyre smoke!

Interestingly I remember the losses (crank to wheel) from the dyno day - which seemed really low at 20hp. So the wheel power was actually 271bhp.

Interestingly the ignition map ended up almost identical to the supercharged Caterham duratec.... I've got that one too somewhere

[Edited on 2/1/15 by flak monkey]

Was it a type 9 gearbox? Transmission losses to seem to vary, we see anything from 18 to 30bhp loss.

Did you have a centrifugal supercharger?

flak monkey - 2/1/15 at 06:42 PM

Yep, Rotrex.

Type 9 transmission with some BGH upgrades

davidimurray - 2/1/15 at 07:47 PM

Been having a go at putting a map together tonight - here is my first attempt. What does everyone think?

Cheers

Dave

Description

flak monkey - 2/1/15 at 08:02 PM

Put some more advance in at low load and higher rpm - basically your cruising range.

Other than that, I'm sure it will work just fine

davidimurray - 2/1/15 at 08:19 PM

Thanks Flak

Gently tweaked ...

Description

flak monkey - 2/1/15 at 08:36 PM

You will be able to safely run 30-34deg advance when cruising - if you know what load/rpm sites that fits in with you can change them now. If not you need to datalog a bit and then make some adjustments.

davidimurray - 2/1/15 at 10:07 PM

Thanks Flak

Will wait until I get it on the road and then see where I am cruising

Cheers

Dave

BaileyPerformance - 3/1/15 at 11:34 AM

A duratec needs at least 28deg but no more than 32, all in after 4000RPM to be safe, so best increase your table abit.

I suggest 28 at 4000, 32 at 7000

davidimurray - 3/1/15 at 06:43 PM

quote:
Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
A duratec needs at least 28deg but no more than 32, all in after 4000RPM to be safe, so best increase your table abit.

I suggest 28 at 4000, 32 at 7000

Thanks Bailey - your hep is much appreciated. I've tweaked as per your reccomendations.

Cheers

Dave

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