John Bonnett
|
| posted on 14/12/22 at 04:33 PM |
|
|
Ford English and BL A series axle widths.
Should it be necessary to change from the Reliant Kitten rear axle I just wondered if there is any data on axles that I might consider as
alternatives. Both Ford and BC axles are quite attractive because they are not too heavy and there's a wide range of ratios available.
|
|
|
|
|
Mike Wood
|
| posted on 14/12/22 at 07:13 PM |
|
|
John
Ford Anglia 105E or MkII Escort ‘English’ axles are probably worth a look the former is narrower. Widths and other info:
https://www.retroford.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/English-Axle-Upgrade-full.pdf
The Morris Ital axle would be worth a look but these days finding these is tricky as is upgrade bits (was used on some Caterhams). Another option
would be the BMC Morris Minor or MG Midget axle with modifications. 750 Formula and Classic Clubmans Mallocks have plenty of experience in modifying
BMC axles and plenty of diff ratios were available. Some info: https://forum.retro-rides.org/thread/11635/tell-me-bmc-axles &
http://www.750formula.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=268 Uprated Midget halfshafts still available from Peter May Engineering.
How about matching PCDs to front hubs? Are you still using Kitten front hubs? (Mini PCD).
Cheers
Mike
[Edited on 14/12/22 by Mike Wood]
[Edited on 14/12/22 by Mike Wood]
[Edited on 14/12/22 by Mike Wood]
[Edited on 14/12/22 by Mike Wood]
|
|
|
obfripper
|
| posted on 14/12/22 at 07:33 PM |
|
|
105e van is the same width as the kitten, probably not that common as an original part anymore but is easily built from new parts as it's just an
english axle and all diff parts are exchangeable, just the casing and shafts would be custom.
An a35,40,midget etc axle is a touch narrower but uses a weaker halfshaft design and would probably cost similar money to bring up to a similar
strength to the english axle.
There are cheaper mods such as thinning the halfshafts to match the spline minor diameter that allows the halfshaft to flex instead of breaking under
shock load.
It does use the same pcd as the kitten so things there might marry up a bit easier.
If you were looking in this direction, i do have an old trailer that is built on one of these axles, i'm not sure what exact car it originated
from but could measure it up if you wanted something to mock up with. I don't know if the diff is any good but all parts are fitted and the
trailer towed fine the last time it was used, just rusted too much to bother with welding up.
Another thought is the suzuki carry axle, iirc is a bit wider than the kitten, but narrower than an escort axle, i have only seen 5.1:1 ratios. A
suzuki jimny also has a similar width axle with better ratios, but iirc has an asymetric shafts so would put the diff off centre.
Dave
|
|
|
John Bonnett
|
| posted on 14/12/22 at 07:44 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by obfripper
105e van is the same width as the kitten, probably not that common as an original part anymore but is easily built from new parts as it's just an
english axle and all diff parts are exchangeable, just the casing and shafts would be custom.
An a35,40,midget etc axle is a touch narrower but uses a weaker halfshaft design and would probably cost similar money to bring up to a similar
strength to the english axle.
There are cheaper mods such as thinning the halfshafts to match the spline minor diameter that allows the halfshaft to flex instead of breaking under
shock load.
It does use the same pcd as the kitten so things there might marry up a bit easier.
If you were looking in this direction, i do have an old trailer that is built on one of these axles, i'm not sure what exact car it originated
from but could measure it up if you wanted something to mock up with. I don't know if the diff is any good but all parts are fitted and the
trailer towed fine the last time it was used, just rusted too much to bother with welding up.
Another thought is the suzuki carry axle, iirc is a bit wider than the kitten, but narrower than an escort axle, i have only seen 5.1:1 ratios. A
suzuki jimny also has a similar width axle with better ratios, but iirc has an asymetric shafts so would put the diff off centre.
Dave
Dave, thank you so much for your suggestion and best of all, you're in Devon as well. Over the next few days when I have someone to hold the
other end of the tape measure I'll get a measurement between the backplates on the Kitten axle and then we can see how it compares with the one
you have. Having the same pcd front and rear is a definite advantage and avoids having to mess about with adapters. I had an Ital axle in my Caterham
and that's an A series and I never had any trouble with that and the Focus engine in the Kitten has about the same torque and power so it ought
to be fine.
|
|
|
John Bonnett
|
| posted on 14/12/22 at 07:51 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Wood
John
Ford Anglia 105E or MkII Escort ‘English’ axles are probably worth a look the former is narrower. Widths and other info:
https://www.retroford.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/English-Axle-Upgrade-full.pdf
The Morris Ital axle would be worth a look but these days finding these is tricky as is upgrade bits (was used on some Caterhams). Another option
would be the BMC Morris Minor or MG Midget axle with modifications. 750 Formula and Classic Clubmans Mallocks have plenty of experience in modifying
BMC axles and plenty of diff ratios were available. Some info: https://forum.retro-rides.org/thread/11635/tell-me-bmc-axles &
http://www.750formula.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=268 Uprated Midget halfshafts still available from Peter May Engineering.
How about matching PCDs to front hubs? Are you still using Kitten front hubs? (Mini PCD).
Cheers
Mike
[Edited on 14/12/22 by Mike Wood]
[Edited on 14/12/22 by Mike Wood]
[Edited on 14/12/22 by Mike Wood]
[Edited on 14/12/22 by Mike Wood]
Hello Mike, nice to hear from you and thank you for your reply. Yes, I am still using the Kitten front hubs with a 4"PCD as the Mini and Midget
etc. Sticking with the same PCD front and back is definitely favourite if I can find an axle casing of about the right width. I know there are at
least three widths, Morris 1000, A35 and Midget, A40 Farina. How available they are remains to be seen.
Thanks once again. John
|
|
|
Mike Wood
|
| posted on 14/12/22 at 08:32 PM |
|
|
Hi John
Always great to hear of you and your projects. MG Midget axles often available on a certain auction site, Gumtree plus MG breakers such as Andy
Jennings: https://www.mg-cars.org.uk/andyjennings/used_mg_parts_midget_axle_transmission.htm
I would be tempted to join the following free to join discussion boards to ask questions about such axles - they have got some great friendly,
practical experienced folk on and another such contributor would be most welcome:
MG Midget BBS Technical: https://mg-cars.org.uk/cgi-bin/or17?runprog=mgbbs&access=&mode=tlist&subject=97
750 Formula forum: http://www.750formula.co.uk/forum/viewforum.php?f=8&sid=49a7b630e2fb16a0a922c783a756207c
And if you are considering using Morris Minor parts: https://board.mmoc.org.uk/viewforum.php?f=32
Info on Mallock sports racer axles: https://www.mallocksports.co.uk/axle-servicing These axles were modified casings to give an offset diff (IIRC
originally first used Morris Minor halfshaft on one side and MG Midget one on the other)
Cheers
Mike
[Edited on 14/12/22 by Mike Wood]
[Edited on 14/12/22 by Mike Wood]
[Edited on 14/12/22 by Mike Wood]
[Edited on 14/12/22 by Mike Wood]
[Edited on 14/12/22 by Mike Wood]
[Edited on 14/12/22 by Mike Wood]
[Edited on 14/12/22 by Mike Wood]
[Edited on 14/12/22 by Mike Wood]
|
|
|
John Bonnett
|
| posted on 14/12/22 at 09:39 PM |
|
|
Great information Mike, thank you so much.
I'm hoping that the DVLA will accept my car under the minimum 8 point rule and not need to go through IVA and, to achieve the necessary points, I
have to retain the Reliant axle. Should they not agree and direct the car to IVA then there will be nothing stopping me changing it if proves not to
be up to the job. It's always good to have a Plan B up one's sleeve.
|
|
|
John Bonnett
|
| posted on 15/12/22 at 03:35 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by obfripper
105e van is the same width as the kitten, probably not that common as an original part anymore but is easily built from new parts as it's just an
english axle and all diff parts are exchangeable, just the casing and shafts would be custom.
An a35,40,midget etc axle is a touch narrower but uses a weaker halfshaft design and would probably cost similar money to bring up to a similar
strength to the english axle.
There are cheaper mods such as thinning the halfshafts to match the spline minor diameter that allows the halfshaft to flex instead of breaking under
shock load.
It does use the same pcd as the kitten so things there might marry up a bit easier.
If you were looking in this direction, i do have an old trailer that is built on one of these axles, i'm not sure what exact car it originated
from but could measure it up if you wanted something to mock up with. I don't know if the diff is any good but all parts are fitted and the
trailer towed fine the last time it was used, just rusted too much to bother with welding up.
Another thought is the suzuki carry axle, iirc is a bit wider than the kitten, but narrower than an escort axle, i have only seen 5.1:1 ratios. A
suzuki jimny also has a similar width axle with better ratios, but iirc has an asymetric shafts so would put the diff off centre.
Dave
Hi Dave
The Kitten axle is 46 inches backplate to backplate. Perhaps you could let me know if your axle is similar.
Many thanks and kind regards
John
|
|
|
Mike Wood
|
| posted on 15/12/22 at 03:40 PM |
|
|
Spridget axle I think is 44 3/4” wide and Ford 105e is about 48”.
|
|
|
John Bonnett
|
| posted on 15/12/22 at 03:49 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Wood
Spridget axle I think is 44 3/4” wide and Ford 105e is about 48”.
That's right Mike. It looks like I might be struggling to get an A series axle the right width.
|
|
|
Mike Wood
|
| posted on 15/12/22 at 07:30 PM |
|
|
John
The Suzuki Carry axle might be worth a look. Used on Liege trials cars which were originally designed around Reliant rear axle, 850cc engine and
gearbox; also used on Kei class Caterham Sevens.
I cannot access the Liege Car Club forum but I seem to remember there was info on this axle.
Cheers
Mike
|
|
|
John Bonnett
|
| posted on 15/12/22 at 08:03 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Wood
John
The Suzuki Carry axle might be worth a look. Used on Liege trials cars which were originally designed around Reliant rear axle, 850cc engine and
gearbox; also used on Kei class Caterham Sevens.
I cannot access the Liege Car Club forum but I seem to remember there was info on this axle.
Cheers
Mike
Thank you Mike. Being vaguely Reliant based the axle might be close.
|
|
|
obfripper
|
| posted on 15/12/22 at 08:59 PM |
|
|
I will get the axle measured up at the weekend, from memory the ~45 inch figure is about right.
Dave
|
|
|
John Bonnett
|
| posted on 15/12/22 at 09:26 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by obfripper
I will get the axle measured up at the weekend, from memory the ~45 inch figure is about right.
Dave
Thanks Dave.
|
|
|
obfripper
|
| posted on 17/12/22 at 11:45 AM |
|
|
I've got the trailer out, unfortunately the axle is 48" but the mechanicals are still spinning nicely, i would guess it must have come from
a minor as the trailer has the old rotary dampers on it as well.
If it's still of interest , let me know.
Dave
|
|
|
John Bonnett
|
| posted on 17/12/22 at 01:05 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by obfripper
I've got the trailer out, unfortunately the axle is 48" but the mechanicals are still spinning nicely, i would guess it must have come from
a minor as the trailer has the old rotary dampers on it as well.
If it's still of interest , let me know.
Dave
Hi Dave, thank you so much for taking the trouble in such cold weather to measure the axle width for me. Yes, I'm sure you're right, it
comes from a Minor and will be too wide for my car.
I'll probably stay with the Kitten axle at least until I know whether the DVLA will accept the 8 points or if it will have to go for IVA.
Thanks once again for your help.
Kind regards
John
|
|
|
