craig1410
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| posted on 1/3/03 at 11:31 AM |
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What is best donor for Rover V8 + McSorley 7+4 chassis
Hi All,
I'm building a home-built chassis based on the McSorley 7+4 wider chassis and Rover V8 3.5 Litre engine.
I would really appreciate some advice on what is the best donor for this chassis/engine combination. I want to go for IRS if possible although this is
not a 100% requirement if it's going to over-complicate things. I've never owned a Ford in my life and know almost nothing about them. I'm not
bothered about ABS but just want a reliable drive/suspension/steering system which will handle the torque/weight of the RV8 engine and is easily
sourced for not much money. Where can I find a Type 9 gearbox, is it up to the torque of the V8? What about the Propshaft? Should I stick with the RV8
gearbox and get a custom propshaft? Does it all fit okay? Do I need a diff from a higher performance Sierra (XR4)
Many questions I know but any you can answer would be a start. BTW, I have just started a build diary at http://www.craig.chamberlain.name/locost
/>
Many thanks,
Craig.
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Stu16v
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| posted on 1/3/03 at 01:12 PM |
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Welcome Craig.
IMHO I think that ideally you will be looking at donor parts from a combination of sources as there isnt a Sierra that will supply all of the required
parts that you are likely to need. I will try and answer your questions methodically, bearing in mind that these are merely my opinions.
IRS isnt necessarily an over complication, just more fabrication on your part. If you want IRS, it will probably be best to source a 4x4 Sierra and
get the driveshafts, CV joints, hubs, discs, calipers, and diff. Another bonus of going IRS with these components is that spares are just a tad easier
to get hold of. Live axles on any car, but especially Fords are staring to get rare nowadays. Type 9 gearboxes are easy enough to find (most 2 litre
and under Sierras have them) but I think the torque of the RV8 will kill 'em pretty quickly with spirited driving. It would probalby be best if you
can source a V8 manual gearbox. The propshaft will have to be custom made whatever box you choose, you can undertake this yourself but I would
recommend you get it done professionally by a specialist. It is only two inches away from you after all....
If you fit the diff from a 4x4 Sierra, they should cope with the grunt of the V8 if it is in reasonable condition, and it is an LSD (bonus...more
traction=more go!). Fitting of all the bits and pieces is an issue that you will have to take on board as you build the chassis. Once you get the
engine and gearbox, with careful measurement and trial fitting, you can construct the transmission tunnel around it. Tip, try and get the engine/box
as far back as possible in the chassis, but leaving enough room for your (and passengers) feet, and not forgetting that one day you may have to take
the engine back out. Seems obvious now, but its easy to fit something with the panelling off, only to find that you cant get to it when the car is
finished!
Hope this helps for starters, Stu.
Dont just build it.....make it!
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craig1410
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| posted on 1/3/03 at 08:59 PM |
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Thanks Stu,
You've been a big help and I appreciate you taking the time to respond so fully.
I've just come in from the garage tonight where I have made some decent progress. Tubes J1 and J2 are now fitted along with the front 'L'
subassembly. I can see that I'm going to have to start firming up some engine mounting plans sooner than I'd first thought.
Yes, I agree that the RV8 manual gearbox is the best way to go and probably the simplest anyway. I just wondered if a Rover to Ford bellhousing
adapter existed because I seem to recall that Capri's used to commonly run RV8's at one time. Anyway, RV8 manual it is! As for the running gear do
you think a scrap 4x4 sierra should be easy enough to come by? Is the running gear on a 2.0i 4x4 as strong as the XR4x4 or cossie? Also, since I
don't want 4 wheel drive I guess I'd need another 2WD donor car to supply the front hubs/discs/calipers etc? Are all 4x4's fitted with rear discs
or do some have drums? I'd rather have drums on the back so that I can have a decent handbrake. Every car I've ever driven with rear discs tends to
have a cr*p handbrake including my current 800 Vitesse Turbo.
Finally a note to anyone who has done the RV8 engine fitment. Do you have drawings for engine mounts and trannie tunnel? Any tips that I should know
about early in the chassis build? (I hope not!)
Thanks again Stu and sorry for all the questions...
Craig.
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Stu16v
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| posted on 2/3/03 at 12:31 PM |
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The 2.0 4x4 has the same running gear as the V6's and the 4x4 Cozzies. 2wd Cozzies and the 2.9 Granada has a slightly bigger diff (7.5 inch as
opposed to 7 inch, measured across the top diff mounting) and certain models have bigger/vented rear discs too. But IMO you dont need the bigger
stuff, the 7 inch diff and small discs are more than adequate. AFAIK all the Ford 4x4 range have rear discs, but as long as the calipers are working
properly, with the reduction in weight of a Locost, the handbrake will be 'decent'.
Cheers, Stu.
Dont just build it.....make it!
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Viper
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| posted on 2/3/03 at 12:53 PM |
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I would sugest the best gearbox you could stick on the back of your V8 would be a T5, much better than the rover box and will easilt take the stick
all day long and has a lovely feel to it when you shift i also think you would be better off using the 4x4 rear end as it has a slipper and a better
ratio for your engine also used the better drive shafts (lobro) the siera rear disc hand brake is plenty good enough for this application the only
problem is if the mechanism sticks
if you look at my photos you will see how i have done my rear end and a pic of a T5 box
good luck with whatever you decide
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craig1410
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| posted on 2/3/03 at 07:04 PM |
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Thanks Stu and Viper, again very useful information. I'll be on the lookout for a Sierra 4x4 getting broken up from now on.
Yeah I take the point that the low weight of the Locost should be okay with the disc handbrake. My Vitesse has brand new calipers, brand new handbrake
cable, greenstuff pads and new grooved/vented discs and it still can't lock up the rear in the dry...unless I warm it up a bit first by dragging the
brakes and even then I need to almost pull the lever out of the floor... Maybe she's trying to tell me something since it's a '93 vintage
Vitesse.
Anyway, moving on to the T5 gearbox, is this a Ford item or Rover or other and how does it fit onto the Rover engine? Is the propshaft compatible with
the 4x4 rear end we've just been discussing? The picture you have (Viper) doesn't seem to have a bellhousing. BTW, I like the suspension setup in
your pictures, it looks the mutt's nutt's! What donor/vendor did this lot come from?
Thanks again gents,
Craig.
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Viper
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| posted on 2/3/03 at 09:32 PM |
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The T5 is a borg warner item, as used in tvr's and 2wd sierra cosworths the bellhousing you would need would be from a tvr chimera or griff (they are
available) my rear end is all home grown as i didn't like the way tiger made there components or the design for that matter, the propshaft , well
that doesn't realy matter as you would have to make one up or have one made because of how short its going to be..
hope this helps..
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craig1410
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| posted on 2/3/03 at 09:53 PM |
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Hi Viper.
Ah, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I guess the T5 is not something that I'm likely to find lying around in my local scrappie's yard then? And I
expect that it won't be cheap either.
What I think I'll do initially is just try to get a V8 with the gearbox (LT77 I think) attached out of a 'running' donor car. I need to keep costs
as low as possible and hope to just throw the engine in without touching it (other than an oil change etc.) At a later date I will want to give the
engine a reconditioning once I confirm that it's basically a sound unit and at that time I may have gathered up enough cash to get a T5 at the same
time. Of course if a T5 comes my way in the meantime I may well change my mind
I'm starting to feel the pressure of what a bloody big project I've got myself into  and am keen to remove anything which will increase the
complexity or cost.
Thanks again for the advice,
Craig.
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Viper
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| posted on 2/3/03 at 11:34 PM |
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Hi craig, try havinga look in motorsport news for a T5, they do come up quite regular, ythe bellhousing is another story i must admit, but worth the
money..
I don't mean to cause offence but if your budget is tight why ore you thinking of a Rover V8? ok so they sound good etc but when it comes to a
rebuild there is twice as many bits to replace.
When i started my build i was fortunate enough to have the choice of a 4.0 ltr out of a chimera or a played with pinto, and when i thought about it
the pinto seemed to make more sense as its a pretty hassle free build and a lot cheaper when it came to exhausts etc, keeping in mind how much power
and torque are realy going to use? my pinto was last used in a grasstrack car and in that car it produced 170 bhp and pulled from just above tickover
in every gear all comes down to a good choice of cam and a half decent head,
unless your heart is set on a V8 then i would have a good look around at the many alternatives and if your heart realy is set in a V8 then i wish you
the best of luck coz i know the sound alone is enough to put a silly grin on the face of most of us..........
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craig1410
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| posted on 3/3/03 at 08:45 AM |
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Hi,
No offence taken and you are correct in asking the question. The simple answer is that my Dad had two separate SD1's when I was a boy and the sound
and feel has stayed with me since then. I also like the idea of lazy power rather than forced power and if should be able to pick up a V8 for not much
money with a bit of luck. Yes they are more expensive to tune but I don't think they cost twice as much since the cam, induction and bottom end are
just the same and there are still only 16 valves to grind in...
Notice that I'm going for the nice simple non-efi model which should minimise the complexity compared with for example a K-Series or Zetec engine.
I've never been a Ford fan so the Pinto or Crossflow don't get my heart racing like a Rover V8.
Hope this explains my 'logic'
Cheers,
Craig.
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Simon
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| posted on 3/3/03 at 10:39 AM |
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Craig,
Go for the V8 (& LT77 box) - I've got one fitted in mine!!
Just started making exhaust system for it.
I'd recommend running the steering column through the footwell, rather than over the top. Exhaust gets in the way!!
Also, I've offset my engine 1.5" to the nearside - cos the oil filter area v. tight.
If you don't have an engine to hand, let me know, and I'll put some dimensions up here for you (will need to measure - so won't be for a day or
two!).
There are a few pics in the archive - more to be added soon.
ATB
Simon
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craig1410
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| posted on 3/3/03 at 05:25 PM |
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Hi Simon,
Yes, I have seen your pictures and had intended to send you a few questions in due course in the hope that I can learn from your inevitable mistakes
Is the LT77 the "standard" box on the V8 or is it limited to certain models/years etc?
I'm working on getting an engine right now and have a possible candidate (currently auto-box but allegedly a good running engine) in mind. Perhaps
you can confirm, is it easy to swap the auto-box for a manual or are there other differences?
However, I would very (very) much appreciate some dimensions and some closeup pictures of any relevant design points. I have broadband so feel free to
send high-res photos if you like. In particular, I need to know as much as possible about the transmission tunnel fabrication for the V8 because I am
fast approaching that stage of the chassis build as you will see from my website. I'm also obviously interested in the engine mounting details,
especially the positioning of tubes G1 and G2 (not fitted yet) and the mountings themselves.
No problem waiting a few days because it's only really the weekend that I get at the car properly anyway.
Any other parts that I should be looking for from a potential Rover SD1 donor car? I hope to get engine+ancils+exhaust
manifolds+radiator+gearbox+gear-lever+propshaft+engine mounts.
Thanks,
Craig.
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Duncan
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| posted on 3/3/03 at 08:56 PM |
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I just had to say that IMHO you should pursue the V8 dream. That rumble from the pipes is worth 50mph even when parked and being blipped from
idle.
oooooooerrrrrrrrrrrr, missus
Any of you guys know anyone who would like to earn an extra £50 - £250 per week, full or part time?
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craig1410
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| posted on 3/3/03 at 09:08 PM |
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Couldn't agree more mate!
I was just replying to an email from a breakers yard who have an SD1 engine from an MOT failure. He's looking for £250 quid plus £50 for helping me
remove the engine and then disposing of the car. This includes a full stainless exhaust system too which might be handy for fabricating a set of pipes
for the Locost. The downside is that it is an automatic gearbox and I would need to source a manual gearbox and flywheel to convert it to manual
again. Does anyone know if that is all that is required? (Will post this question on engine forum I think)
Also does anyone reading this have any opinion if this is a fair price or not? It seems okay to me if the engine has a fairly low mileage and is
running smoothly etc. Apparently it has a faulty water pump and my only concern is that it may have been overheated as a result.
How easy should a good V8 be to get hold of and how much should I pay for a good one which I can just drop in a run, untouched? My Dad sold his
complete running car for £200 a few years ago with only 56000 miles on the clock (genuine too!) I think this broke both our hearts at the time! 
Thanks again to all who have responded,
Craig.
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Simon
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| posted on 4/3/03 at 09:51 AM |
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Craig,
When I initially built my chassis it was with a Sierra 1.8 CVH, with the intention of changing to the V8 at a later date.
Some time ago, I decided that would be a complete waste of time and that I might aswell drop the V8 in to start with.
The transmission tunnel is therefore designed around the Sierra Type 9. As luck would have it the LT77 (fitted as standard to SD1/TR8 (mine) and the
Leyland Van?) fitted into the tunnel quite nicely.
One thing I would point out, my chassis is 4" wider than the book.
As for swapping the auto for a manual, I'd talk to RPI you need to either remove/fit/change the spigot bearing and replace drive plate for a
flywheel.
ATB
Simon
[Edited on 4/3/03 by Simon]
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craig1410
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| posted on 4/3/03 at 01:01 PM |
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Hi Simon,
Thanks for the additional info.
My chassis is also 4 inches wider than book, in line with the McSorley 7+4 plans. Simply put it has 4" added right down the centre and thus the
bottom frame width is 46" instead of 42". This will naturally put the transmission tunnel 4" wider too unless I change it in some way. I'd like to
strike a balance between extra tunnel size and more footwell size if the gearbox doesn't need the full 4" extra. Hopefully you can help me out with
some of the critical dimensions when you get some time.
Yes, someone on the engine forum confirmed that the flywheel, spigot and trannie is what I need which is a bit of a pain. I'm sure I can get a
gearbox but unless someone has a scrap engine somewhere they're not going to want to give me their flywheel and clutch assembly.
Another thing which is bothering me about the V8 'dream' is the unleaded fuel issue. Has your engine been converted for unleaded or are you planning
to use additives/LRP? If I decided to abandon the V8 then the T-Series or Honda V6 2.7 would be worthy alternatives I think. The T-Series turbo is
what I run in my 800 Vitesse and it is good for well over 200BHP with the boost turned up. It's also very very torquey. The V6 is by all accounts a
beautiful smooth engine although it's bulky and seems to have wires and pipes everywhere. Both engines are quite heavy and the T-series might be a
problem to mate to an RWD gearbox. I'll persevere with the V8 idea for now but I'm starting to waiver a bit...
Cheers,
Craig.
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Simon
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| posted on 4/3/03 at 01:48 PM |
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Craig,
My engine's from a Rover P6, and is about as unclean as it can get. I've been assured it's a good engine though, and will run it on LR petrol until
it goes bang. I'm not going to do much more than 3000 miles a year, which assuming LR is 20p/gallon and 25mpg, it'll cost me £24 extra a year. I
think I can cope with that!!
I know of someone who runs a leaded engine with unleaded, with a thingymajig that does something to the fuel (adds lead!?!?!?) in the fuel line!
Clear:-)
As for alternative engines, if I ever get to do anything else (after I finish this), I want to mid mount the T Series Turbo in the back of a (proper)
Mini. As for the 2.7 V6, we had one in our old 827 Vitesse. Engine was great. V smooth, quiet etc. You may have trouble mating it to a (rwd) box
though?
Like you, I added 4" down the middle, but made the tunnel normal size (approx 7" wide - not the tranny bit though). Everything fits. The extra width
is for my comfort, and allows wider choice of seats.
Just as a matter of interest, are you old enough not to worry about prospective insurance costs with the V8. That may be a deciding factor, and could
be worth bearing in mind. I'm lucky, I'm 36 3/4!!
If you don't need to worry, use the V8!
ATB
Simon
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craig1410
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| posted on 4/3/03 at 05:47 PM |
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Simon,
I'm 31 in October and currently insure my 820 Vitesse (Group 15/16 insurance) for about £400 per year fully comp with 10 years protected NCB. I
recently got 3 points on my licence, due to one of those sneaky unmarked vans with the front facing camera, doing 72MPH (what a hard core criminal I
am eh?) on a 60MPH section of dual carriageway... This made my premium go up from about £370 to £400 which seemed fair enough.
Anyway, I will do some head scratching for a few days before I decide what to go for. I'd like the V8 but the T-Series is tempting, although I'll
probably need to fit a catalyst if I go for one of those. The Honda is a sweet engine but big, heavy and as I said, covered in cables and pipes and
wires...yuk! The T-Series looks quite smart and tidy and has been very reliable for me in the Vitesse. I did the cylinder head gasket to cure an oil
leak a little while ago but that is all and was optional to be honest. I have now done 116K miles having bought it 3 years ago at 77k. Good engine!
Anyone out there know of a bellhousing kit for mating a T-Series to a RWD gearbox?
Cheers again,
Craig.
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Noodle
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| posted on 5/3/03 at 04:22 PM |
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Honda Engines/RV8 fuel.
On the Honda/engined front, I believe all Honda engines run anti-clockwise. If you could fit a type-9 it'd be running backwards. I imagine some gear
meshing problems could stem from that. You could try a box from an S2000, (front engined rear-drive) but that'd be £££££££. If you did get a Ford box
to fit, you'd have to mount the diff upside down too or you'd have one hell of a reverser! (Try changing the diff oil upside down)
Also, be careful when eulogising about Honda V6's. As I remember those fitted to the early Rover 800's (ughh!) were less than reliable.
On the RV8 UL fuel issue. As a rule of thumb, if the engine was exported to the USA in the 70's, it will probably run UL as they were years ahead in
that department. P6's, SD1's, TR8's and especially Range Rover were exported with varying degrees of failure by BL. You should be safe with
those.
According to David Hardcastle's Tuning the Rover V8, any post 1970 engine has the appropriately hardened valve seats fitted. 9.35:1 comp engines will
need ignition retarding by 3deg. (or use super-unleaded)
BTW, I'm with the 'just do it' camp. The noise, but more importantly the TORQUE! Roundabouts will be your Nirvana...
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Stu16v
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| posted on 5/3/03 at 10:59 PM |
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Not ALL Honda engines run backwards. The S2000 and the newest FWD Honda 4 pots are 'conventional', but I honestly dont know about the V6.
HTH Stu.
Dont just build it.....make it!
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craig1410
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| posted on 5/3/03 at 11:10 PM |
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Thanks for the info guys, I think I've narrowed my choices down to either Rover V8 or T-Series turbo 2 litre. They both have their good and bad
points and I think the choice will come down to which one I get hold of first at a reasonable price.
BTW, I've just found out that the T-Series can be fitted to the MT75 Ford gearbox as used in the Robin Hood Superspec.
Maybe I should hold a vote (T or V8?). I think the V8 would win wouldn't it?
Cheers,
Craig.
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