randombloke
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| posted on 7/11/11 at 04:01 PM |
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BMW M50 or M52 Engine?
Hello Everyone
Been lurking on Locostbuilders for a while, learning lots of interesting build info, but this is my first post.
I am planning to build a sevenesque roadster using a BMW E36 as a donor and wanted to get some advice as to which engine to choose.
The 325 uses the M50 engine which produces 190BHP but weighs in at 198KG, on the other hand the 328 has the M52 engine which also produces 190BHP but
due to the aluminium block is 170KG.
Seems a simple choice, especially when you consider that by swapping the M52 inlet manifold with one from the M50 engine you can increase the power to
about 210BHP; however I have been warned that the more modern electronics on the M52 can be more difficult to get working.
Has anyone had any experience of using the 2.8Lt M52 engine in a locost? as I would be really interested to know what the pitfall are to watch out
for?
Thanks in advance,
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DixieTheKid
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| posted on 7/11/11 at 04:04 PM |
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M52 with a M50 325 inlet manifold and S52 cams!
[Edited on 7/11/11 by DixieTheKid]
COS IT'S Worth IT
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jossey
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| posted on 7/11/11 at 04:37 PM |
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m52 is better has the longer stroke which is worth the extra money for the extra displacement.
Thanks
David Johnson
Building my tiger avon slowly but surely.
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Nickp
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| posted on 7/11/11 at 05:15 PM |
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I'm in the very early stages of fitting an M52 into a Haynes Roadster.
It fits, just, with some chassis chopping- http://www.ppc-mag.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9383&sid=cbcfbf228a5688c7e0a5bee7d3edfc9f
I haven't given the electrics much thought, but figured if I can't get it to run I'll just Megasquirt it.
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sdh2903
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| posted on 7/11/11 at 05:20 PM |
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Have a word with rodgling on here, he has been down the 2.8 route then subsequently the m3 lump. (in a gkd)
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jambojeef
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| posted on 7/11/11 at 06:12 PM |
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I am breaking a whole 528i manual with engine and gearbox out ready to go - all other parts available too.
£250 for engine and box, all other parts cheap and in ex working order - PM if you like, wont be putting on ebay for a little while.
Geoff
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SteveWallace
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| posted on 7/11/11 at 07:16 PM |
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If you search for my various threads you will see the progress that I have been making putting a 2.8 into a Viento. The main issue is the bulge in the
side of the sump which needs to be cut off to fit between the chassis rails. It is also quite a high engine. I reckon that I have 10mm clearance under
the bonnet with a 80mm ground clearance, but I don't know how this would translate into a smaller 7.
I've just started on the electrics and there are a LOT of wires in the BMW loom - most of which will not be needed. By the time that you get to
that point, I should have more constructive advice for you. Also, I have found a download of the wiring diagram thats much more detailed than the one
in the Haynes manual so I can send this across to you when you are ready.
Steve
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rodgling
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| posted on 7/11/11 at 09:36 PM |
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I had the 328 originally. It's a good choice in terms of being lighter, it has lots of power (as in, I don't notice the difference 0-60
against the M3 because both are traction-limited on T1Rs), it's cheap, etc, etc.
There are two big downsides to the 328. These are the redline - 6200 is just rubbish in a sports car, and the questionable durability of the aluminium
block... the consensus on the BMW forums seems to be that HGF is quite likely to result in stripping the threads for the head bolts. That said, the
redline is only slightly better on the M50.
Apparently a frankenstein combination of the M50 block / M52 head / M54 crank & pistons is possible giving a 3.0L engine if you wanted to go that
route... but then you might as well just get an S50.
Height is a bit of an issue, but I've ended up with about 100 mm sump clearance (with a bonnet scoop to let the throttle mechanism poke out the
top).
The gearbox and diff should be very strong, diff is pretty heavy but that's possibly a good thing with that much torque.
TBH if doing it again I'd go for an M3 as it's very strong and reliable (compared to the 328) and can be made to rev to silly RPMs. But it
is very expensive compared to the 328 route.
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Nickp
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| posted on 8/11/11 at 07:36 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by rodgling
There are two big downsides to the 328. These are the redline - 6200 is just rubbish in a sports car, and the questionable durability of the aluminium
block... the consensus on the BMW forums seems to be that HGF is quite likely to result in stripping the threads for the head bolts. That said, the
redline is only slightly better on the M50.
6200rpm? Is that right? Doesn't sound a lot. Is that due to some mechanical limitation or just what the factory rev limit happens to be set to?
My M52B25 apparently has a 'chipped' ECU to make the most of fitting the earlier M50 inlet manifold and I was expecting the rev limiter to
be raised also. I was certainly intending revving it higher than 6200rpm, don't know how long for though  But at the price and availability of
these engines they're pretty much disposable anyway 
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rodgling
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| posted on 8/11/11 at 09:44 AM |
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Yup, really limited to 6200 :-( I don't know how high it can safely be revved if de-limited.
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franky
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| posted on 8/11/11 at 11:55 AM |
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As dave said, if you forget about the low red line they're amazing engines for the cash. When he had a 328 engine it was very very quick.
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Nickp
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| posted on 8/11/11 at 12:07 PM |
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Think I'll megasqirt it and see how she revs!!
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rodgling
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| posted on 8/11/11 at 12:23 PM |
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A quick google suggests that 7k is fairly safe, but if you go much beyond this you are likely to run into problems with the valve train.
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franky
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| posted on 8/11/11 at 12:26 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Nickp
Think I'll megasqirt it and see how she revs!!
or save money and use the standard ecu and have a map that cost £££££'s to develop?
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Nickp
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| posted on 8/11/11 at 12:28 PM |
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7k sounds more like it for a modern-ish 4 valve motor. There'd be no gain of going beyond that on std cams anyway, just nice to know you can
hang onto a gear if required on track.
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Nickp
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| posted on 8/11/11 at 12:48 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by franky
quote:
Originally posted by Nickp
Think I'll megasqirt it and see how she revs!!
or save money and use the standard ecu and have a map that cost £££££'s to develop?
I'll be trying to get it running on the chipped ecu first. Is the original key required?
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rodgling
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| posted on 8/11/11 at 04:08 PM |
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The chip from the original key is required, though this is easily swappable between keys if you wanted to change the ignition barrel. You'll
also need the EWS (immobiliser) box, plus a little "key amplifier" box which sits between ignition barrel and EWS and sends the info in
the chip to the EWS. All E36 328s had EWS II AFAIK, so you won't find an ECU which doesn't need an immobiliser.
I don't think it's possible to get the 328 ECU de-immobilised - I spoke to several chipping companies who said they can't do it.
However, mine has been reliable once I got it working and it's probably good for insurance purposes to have it.
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rodgling
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| posted on 11/11/11 at 09:53 AM |
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This is interesting: http://www.bmwowner.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=208191&sid=2e5aa080e0c2c3aa508abebb1d18c822
Some bloke is selling a 328 ECU with a 7k rev limit and (he claims) no EWS required for £100. I'd snap that up quick if I were you.
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Nickp
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| posted on 11/11/11 at 10:28 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by rodgling
This is interesting: http://www.bmwowner.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=208191&sid=2e5aa080e0c2c3aa508abebb1d18c822
Some bloke is selling a 328 ECU with a 7k rev limit and (he claims) no EWS required for £100. I'd snap that up quick if I were you.
Cheers for that, mine's a 325 and I'm not sure if they're the same. Anyway I've U2U'd the guy I got my engine off and
he's sending me the rest of the bits - EWS module, key etc etc I suppose it'll be more complicated to include the EWS but hopefully
should be do-able if I've got all the required bits.
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randombloke
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| posted on 13/11/11 at 06:50 PM |
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Thanks everyone for your replies.
I have decided I am going to use the M52 2.8 for my build. I will buy a complete car, rather than just an engine so I know I have all the
electronics.
As for the size, especially the height, I am not too worried as I am designing my own chassis to fit it in.
A couple of people mentioned the S52 cams. I did some research on this and it seems the S52 engine to be US only, are there suppliers in the UK that
can supply the S52 cams?
[Edited on 14/11/11 by randombloke]
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Bare
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| posted on 17/11/11 at 05:24 PM |
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Yikes 198Kgs!? Anchor from the Titanic comes to mind.
Sure it may accelerate.. but even so nowhere as near a well as a Hyabusa or most any litre plus Bike engine unit will.
That's some serious mass to try to bend into a corner.
Don't think the chairman would have approved :-)
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DixieTheKid
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| posted on 17/11/11 at 06:28 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by randombloke
Thanks everyone for your replies.
I have decided I am going to use the M52 2.8 for my build. I will buy a complete car, rather than just an engine so I know I have all the
electronics.
As for the size, especially the height, I am not too worried as I am designing my own chassis to fit it in.
A couple of people mentioned the S52 cams. I did some research on this and it seems the S52 engine to be US only, are there suppliers in the UK that
can supply the S52 cams?
[Edited on 14/11/11 by randombloke]
The S52 was used in the 3.2l Evo's
I really...... REALLY REALLY miss mine. Still some bloke from Northampton is happy 
[Edited on 17/11/11 by DixieTheKid]
COS IT'S Worth IT
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rodgling
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| posted on 17/11/11 at 07:26 PM |
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quote:
The S52 was used in the 3.2l Evo's
No, the 3.2 Evo was the S50B32 (and the M3 3.0 was S50B30). S52 is US-only, more similar to the 328 than the European M3 engines.
quote:
Yikes 198Kgs!? Anchor from the Titanic comes to mind.
Sure it may accelerate.. but even so nowhere as near a well as a Hyabusa or most any litre plus Bike engine unit will.
You'd be surprised. It weighs an extra 100 kg, sure, but also has 210 lb-ft (260 for an M3 EVO) vs, say, 130 lb-ft from a BEC. Torque-per-ton,
which is what mainly influences acceleration, is way up over a BEC.
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DixieTheKid
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| posted on 17/11/11 at 07:33 PM |
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aaarrrgghhhh yes yes yes... B32 sorry thats where im getting confuse because the std M3 was the B30. Hands up... im a nobber!
COS IT'S Worth IT
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franky
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| posted on 17/11/11 at 08:00 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Bare
Yikes 198Kgs!? Anchor from the Titanic comes to mind.
Sure it may accelerate.. but even so nowhere as near a well as a Hyabusa or most any litre plus Bike engine unit will.
That's some serious mass to try to bend into a corner.
Don't think the chairman would have approved :-)
Less than 198kgs, and it'll go much better than just about every bike engine
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