mads
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| posted on 17/7/08 at 02:01 PM |
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which sierra model?
Hi,
As posted in another area, I'm new to kit cars. I've been trawling through forums and sites and cant seem to find a definitive answer.
I'm planning to build a MK Indy with a GSXR engine in it. Which model Sierra do I need to try and get for the donor parts?
I'm wanting to have all round discs so I assume a XR4x4 is needed for that, but is there a particular year/model I should try to get hold of or
in fact avoid? I was planning to have vented discs... should I stick to Sierra discs or buy some aftermarket ones?
And is there anything about what I am planning to have on the Indy that defines which model I should be looking for (other than brakes)?
Also, anyone know of any going in West Midlands area, particularly Worcester / South&West Birmingham areas? Or any decent breakers.
Cheers,
mads
[Edited on 17/7/08 by mads]
[Edited on 17/7/08 by mads]
We gain knowledge faster than we do wisdom!
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in
sideways, thoroughly used, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming... "f*ck, what a trip!"
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BenB
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| posted on 17/7/08 at 02:12 PM |
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Do you really need vented discs? Don't forget on a Seven the brake discs have pretty good airflow (cooling) as standard.
It's rare to need vented / drilled / grooved discs (though often people get them just for pimpin value).....
I'd stick with standard discs and then if you're really keen on track days etc upgrade the pads but leave the discs as they are....
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graememk
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| posted on 17/7/08 at 02:19 PM |
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would be better with just a normal xr4 as they have a lsd, not the 4x4, front upright are no good on a indy in a 4x4
[Edited on 17/7/08 by graememk]
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mads
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| posted on 17/7/08 at 02:20 PM |
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If I am honest with myself, the vented discs are more because I like the look of them rather than for practical reasons (shameful I know).
I have read of one bloke who drilled the holes himself and I was thinking maybe go down that route if I cant get aftermarket ones or are too
expensive. Though I may do as you suggested an just upgrade the pads.
Cheers for the reply Ben. Anyone else about which model I need?
We gain knowledge faster than we do wisdom!
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in
sideways, thoroughly used, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming... "f*ck, what a trip!"
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mads
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| posted on 17/7/08 at 02:23 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by graememk
would be better with just a normal xr4 not the 4x4, front upright are no good on a indy in a 4x4
is that true also for the Indy R or does it not make any difference?
Also, I was considering have front and rear LSD... does that make any difference to the sierra model?
We gain knowledge faster than we do wisdom!
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in
sideways, thoroughly used, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming... "f*ck, what a trip!"
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graememk
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| posted on 17/7/08 at 02:24 PM |
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why are you making a 4x4 indy ?
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Flamez
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| posted on 17/7/08 at 02:26 PM |
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manual steering as opposed to power.
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Mr G
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| posted on 17/7/08 at 02:32 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by graememk
would be better with just a normal xr4 as they have a lsd
The XR4i does NOT have an LSD btw 
Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work and driving through traffic in a
car that you are still paying for - in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes
and the car, and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it.
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graememk
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| posted on 17/7/08 at 02:38 PM |
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i'm right that the xr4 does though arnt i ? as mines lsd from a xr4, didnt the xr4i have traction control ?
quote:
Originally posted by Mr G
quote:
Originally posted by graememk
would be better with just a normal xr4 as they have a lsd
The XR4i does NOT have an LSD btw
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Paul TigerB6
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| posted on 17/7/08 at 02:42 PM |
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The XR4i doesnt have an LSD. You wont be wanting a front diff - thats for sure as you wont be running 4wd!!
I think your first step should be to check the gear ratio's with a 3.62:1 Sierra XR4x4 differential as many bike engines ideally need a longer
ratio differential. I have a calculator here but dont have the gear ratio's for the GSXR1000 (which might not be the best option for a track car
due to the afore mentioned oil surge issues). Is there a reason for using a Gixxer over an R1 or ZX10R etc??
Assuming the XR4x4 LSD diff is fine then probably your best option will be to look for a complete XR4x4 rear end and find some front uprights /
calipers, steering column etc off a "standard" 2wd Sierra
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Mr G
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| posted on 17/7/08 at 02:44 PM |
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XR4 is the XR4i - They only ever badged 2 sierra's over here with the XR brand (exluding 4x4), both XR4i. One was the 2.8 V6 of the 80's
and the other the 2.0l xr4i of the 90's.
No LSD 
No traction control either - First introduced on the granadas instead of LSD iirc.
[Edited on 17/7/08 by Mr G]
Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work and driving through traffic in a
car that you are still paying for - in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes
and the car, and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it.
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mcerd1
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| posted on 17/7/08 at 02:53 PM |
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just a couple of small points in case your starting to get confused
- you can't have the LSD at both ends of the car unless its a 4x4
an LSD is primarily there to help control the power to each wheel - so you only need them in-between driven wheels (i.e. the back axle of a rwd
car)
- It is possible to get an XR4 / XR4i with an LSD, but it was an option so not all of them have it - only 4x4's had it as standard (and
that's any 4x4 = Sierra+Escort Cossie 4x4, Ghia 4x4 and XR4x4 / XR4x4i...............)
-Most sierra's have vented discs as standard (i.e. there is a gap between the 2 friction faces making the disc 24mm thick overall), but I think
what you mean is the aftermarket drilled or grooved ones
these shouldn't be needed for road use, but if you like them....
some rare small engined sierra's (1.3 ?) had solid discs on the front (I think these are about ~10mm thick) these are a bit lighter
lots of BEC's convert to aftermarket alloy calipers using fairly small solid discs for the weight saving as much as anything - remember your
building a very light car, its easy to get carried away 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
this is the bit where I tell you more than you ever wanted to know about bits of old sierra's  
assuming for a moment that your not building a 4x4 indy - then you'll want a rwd sierra (not cossie) without power steering - after that there
are a few options to get what you need / want
as mentioned above the 4x4 front hubs are not suitable, and neither are cossie / Granada ones (at least not without re-working the front
suspension)
there are 2 sizes of diff found in the sierra's (and granada's) 7" and 7.5" - you'll want the smaller 7" type -
this is the one found in all 4x4's (apart from a few odd ones which ford must have made just to confuse people)
[btw - there are lots of other threads on how to identify an LSD]
7.5" diffs are standard on cossie 2wd's and more common on later models, they are probibly a bit big/ heavy for your car (I don't
know if the indy can use the 7.5" or not)
this is a pic of a 7" diff: http://www.donorspares.co.uk/Sierra%20open%20diff%20%20comp.jpg
and this is a 7.5" diff: http://i9.ebayimg.com/06/i/000/f4/7f/fdb0_1.JPG
notice the differnce in the top-front mountings
aftermarket LSD's (such as quaife ATB's) can be fitted as an upgrade in any of the non-LSD's
there are 2 types of driveshaft for the 7" diff: 'bolt-on' or 'push-in' - all cars with rear discs have the bolt on ones
(push-in shafts are a little lighter)
rear discs are found on all the models with ABS, 4x4 or a V6 engine (and possibly a few others knowing ford)
you can convert rear drum's to discs quite easily (kits are available with the mounting brakets and spacers needed)
there are 2 common sizes of front brakes (ignoring the cossies and 1.3's): 240mm or 260mm - both are vented
the 240mm ones are on the cars with rear drums, 260mm ones are on the cars with rear discs
there are a few variations of the 260mm discs (i.e. different offsets for 4x4, 5 stud for granada's.....)
and there are only 2 types of calipers for these = 240mm type and 260mm type
lastly the diff ratio can be a big issue for the BEC's - don't ask me which is best for your engine (I'm a CEC man)
for 7" diffs as a general rule:
-2.0 cars have 3.92 or 3.62 ratios
-V6,1.8D and cossie 4x4's have 3.62 ratio's
-2.3 diesels have the ultra rare 3.38 and 3.14 ratios that some BEC owners would sell there children for
the axle code on the vin plate could help:
M=3.14 (7" or 7.5" )
A=3.36 (7.5" )
V=3.38 (7" )
U=3.62 (7" )
3=3.64 (7.5" )
9=3.91 (7.5" )
D=3.92 (7" )
7=4.09 (7.5" )
2=4.27 (7.5" )
also there is a little alloy tag on the diff itself with some codes on it
on the top row it will have something like this: 83BG MC 362
the ignore the first bit (e.g. 83BG) it tells you what size of casing it is and so on, but its easy to see that just by looking at the diff
if the next bit (e.g. MC) has 2 or more A's in it, it should be an LSD (e.g. "AA" or "ADA"........)
the last bit is the ratio, 362 = 3.62:1
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so that's what you can get (the common bits at least)
I recon that your best bet would be something like a 2.8 XR4 (the earlier V6 one), but chances are you won't get an LSD with this, but do you
really need it ?
If the answer is 'yes' and your donor doesn't have the LSD you can get them from another scrap car for a little extra ££ (I got mine
from someone here for £40 - needing rebuilt)
or you could get a 4x4 and get you front hubs and steering rack from elsewhere (rally design sell the hubs new!)
but if money isn't so big and issue then you the best mix might actually be a base model donor with rear drums - then add the rear disc
conversion, aftermarket LSD and ratio of your choice.....
also mk3 Granada's use largely the same parts (different front hubs, steering and 5 stud rear hubs) so you can mix and match with these too
so the reson there is no definative answer is it depends what you want and what you can find for your money
-Robert
[Edited on 17/7/08 by mcerd1]
[Edited on 17/7/08 by mcerd1]
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mads
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| posted on 17/7/08 at 02:53 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul TigerB6
I have a calculator here but dont have the gear ratio's for the GSXR1000 (which might not be the best option for a track car due to the afore
mentioned oil surge issues). Is there a reason for using a Gixxer over an R1 or ZX10R etc??
I ride a GSXR at the moment and have always liked the Suzuki engines. Also, there arent as many Gixxer-based Indys about so thought I'd build
something different. But by the sounds of it, I might be opening a can of worms.
Think I might get in touch with MK as they built one so I would have thought they would have had to overcome the same obstacles as I'm likely to
face..?
[Edited on 17/7/08 by mads]
We gain knowledge faster than we do wisdom!
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in
sideways, thoroughly used, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming... "f*ck, what a trip!"
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mads
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| posted on 17/7/08 at 02:57 PM |
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mcerd1 - thankyou!!! that definitely has cleared it up. And no, not planning on building a 4x4 Indy. I think I got confused when I was reading up on
LSDs and how they worked.
We gain knowledge faster than we do wisdom!
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in
sideways, thoroughly used, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming... "f*ck, what a trip!"
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Mr G
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| posted on 17/7/08 at 03:06 PM |
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The factory option lsd is like hens teeth so did'nt think it was worth mentioning (it also retained the drums iirc)
Still can't figure out why there is mention of a xr4 or xr4x4i?
Don't forget the 4x4 GLS as a source of the lsd as well.
[Edited on 17/7/08 by Mr G]
Normal is getting dressed in clothes that you buy for work and driving through traffic in a
car that you are still paying for - in order to get to the job you need to pay for the clothes
and the car, and the house you leave vacant all day so you can afford to live in it.
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Paul TigerB6
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| posted on 17/7/08 at 03:18 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mads
I ride a GSXR at the moment and have always liked the Suzuki engines. Also, there arent as many Gixxer-based Indys about so thought I'd build
something different. But by the sounds of it, I might be opening a can of worms.
Think I might get in touch with MK as they built one so I would have thought they would have had to overcome the same obstacles as I'm likely to
face..?
[Edited on 17/7/08 by mads]
I have just found the gear ratio's for a 2006 Gixxer 1000 and it gives the following with a 195/50/15 tyre (13500rpm redline)
1st 63mph
2nd 79mph
3rd 95mph
4th 108mph
5th 119mph
6th 128mph
So looks about right to me really.
I'm not saying dont use the Gixxer, just be aware that you may want to look at the potential oil surge issue and maybe look at sump mods or an
accusump system. There are a few people on here who will advise anyway. I do know Stuart Taylor Motorsport blew a few up in the RGB race series and
moved to dry sumping them. Whether this solved the issue completely i'm not sure.
All part of the planning process anyway, so its well worth doing your research here and with MK etc first. Malc at Yorkshire Engines is highly
recommended also and is a member on here.
[url=http://www.yorkshireengines.co.uk/]
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fesycresy
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| posted on 17/7/08 at 03:23 PM |
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Vented brakes are shite until they get real hot.
Stick to solids, take it from someone who's used vented.
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The sooner you fall behind, the more time you'll have to catch up.
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tomblyth
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| posted on 17/7/08 at 03:54 PM |
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before you buy a donor price just buying the bits you need , as your using a bike engine (as i did ) you'll not use most of the doner , I bought
a doner 2l GL but most of my bits come from other places! I'f you find one buy the 2.3 diesel with the 3.14 diff as its the rare one, also
I'd look as an acusump
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mcerd1
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| posted on 17/7/08 at 04:50 PM |
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I've edited my post above with a load of info on the individual donor parts
hope it helps a little - if not ignore it
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mads
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| posted on 20/7/08 at 01:48 PM |
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mcerd1 - blimey thats a LOT of info there. I think I have absorbed most of it and have some further questions if you dont mind?
LSDs - I think I will probably fit one. Have googled the quaife diffs and its £450 +VAT!!!! Are they any better than me trying to source a standard
sierra one? Is it lighter aswell do you know?
Rear discs - Again, I am considering fitting these. Is it better just to source rear discs or doesnt it matter too much if I add a conversion kit on?
I will also probably end up going with alloy calipers to help with weight.
Paul - thankyou for finding out the gear ratios. Having been reading into it, I will be adding an accusump I think. Anyone any ideas on cost and
weight? I've still to get in touch with MK and Yorkshire to ask for advice but just been really busy lately.
Fesy - I actually meant the drilled/grove discs but still solid (wrong terminology used before). Is warming these type up a problem as well or just
the vented ones?
tomblyth - any chance you could u2u me a list of what you ended up needing from the donor so I can create a price list please?
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mcerd1
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| posted on 21/7/08 at 08:00 AM |
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aftermarket LSD's and alloy calipers arn't cheap !
I'm not saying don't get them if you really want them, but you could spend the money on other things just now and save these for upgrades
once the car is on the road (if you think it needs them)
if your trying to budget for the car don't forget all the little things: wiring, lights, switches, gauges (if your not using the bike ones which
I assume you will be - in which case: speedo healer ? ) , seats, brake pipe + fittings, hoses, bolts.............
quote:
Originally posted by mads
LSDs - I think I will probably fit one. Have googled the quaife diffs and its £450 +VAT!!!! Are they any better than me trying to source a standard
sierra one? Is it lighter aswell do you know?
£450+VAT then add the cost of the sierra diff with the ratio you want, and then ~£250 to get it rebuilt for you (or just the price of the bearings +
seals if your doing the work yourself)
The overall setup with push-in shafts will be lighter
but also from what other people have told be the quaife diff should be better suited to a small light car than something designed for a car the size
and weight of a sierra - but then again you can get the sierra diff tuned by changing the viscous fluid (although I've not heard of anyone doing
this in a kit car for some reson)
http://www.gearboxman.co.uk/psdiffs.html
quote:
Originally posted by madsRear discs - Again, I am considering fitting these. Is it better just to source rear discs or doesnt it matter
too much if I add a conversion kit on? I will also probably end up going with alloy calipers to help with weight.
once you got your diff sorted this will make the decision for you....
if this is to be mainly a road car the chances are you won't really need anything fancy, just get some good brake pads for the standard brakes
(front and back)
if you do end up converting from drums to discs you'll still need a set of sierra calipers (unless you go for alloy ones - £££)
as far as I know there are a few ways to achieve this
-brackets to convert the drum type hubs (push-in shafts at both ends)
-as above, disc type (bolt-on) hubs and push in diff with the right mix of driveshafts and CV joints
-or what iiyama has done (basically drum braked bits, but with the bearing carrier from the disc type modified to suit instead of conversion
brackets)
quote:
Originally posted by madstomblyth - any chance you could u2u me a list of what you ended up needing from the donor so I can create a
price list please?
I think there is a list on the MK website to download......
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mads
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| posted on 22/7/08 at 01:30 PM |
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cheers mcerd1 - sometimes I just need someone to show me that I dont need to do everything at once.
I'm going to go with a standard sierra diff (if I can find one) and if i get lucky with rear discs on donor then fine but otherwise drums for
now.
so.... does anybody know of a sierra being sold that fits what I'm after?
We gain knowledge faster than we do wisdom!
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in
sideways, thoroughly used, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming... "f*ck, what a trip!"
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mcerd1
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| posted on 22/7/08 at 02:24 PM |
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keep an eye out for 2.3 diesels, you might get lucky (3.14 / 3.38)
if not 2wd V6 and 1.8 diesels will have a 3.62 diff
at the end of the day if your missing 1 or 2 bit you can stick a wanted add on here....
(for example: I've still got a spare pair of granada bolt-on driveshafts with only 1 CV joint each, and a few other odds and ends)
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mads
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| posted on 23/7/08 at 02:55 PM |
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thoughts?
not sure what the reserve is but was thinking that if not too high then maybe sell some of the parts I'm not going to use to recoup the money?
e.g. exhaust system, pinto block, monaco seats etc.
We gain knowledge faster than we do wisdom!
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in
sideways, thoroughly used, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming... "f*ck, what a trip!"
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mcerd1
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| posted on 24/7/08 at 10:24 AM |
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I'm sure you can find something cheaper than that
whats in your local free add's paper ?
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