Matt_1993
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| posted on 13/4/14 at 06:37 PM |
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RHD vs. LHD
Hi LocostBuilders!
I'm new to the forum and I am looking to set off on the adventure of building my own "Haynes" style roadster. As for now i am still
light years away from starting any work but i want to start planning the project and also want to look at what my options are!
So the question that i'd really want to ask is whether there is any difference in using a left hand drive or right hand drive car as a donor?
The reason i want o know this is because I am located in Germany but temporarily live in the UK at the moment and I've seen several good donor
cars in the UK, which are obviously RHD cars...I mean i know the donor car will be completely stripped for the drive-train goodies and power-train
goodies but will there not be engine components that may interfere with the steering or pumps and so on that would limit to making the final roadster
a LHD car?
Thanks for the help everybody, much appreciated!
Regards, Matt!
[Edited on 13/4/14 by Matt_1993]
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ashg
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| posted on 13/4/14 at 07:02 PM |
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It will be fine. The only different bit will be the steering rack. The sierras steering rack is not used on the roadster so there won't be an
issue
Anything With Tits or Wheels Will cost you MONEY!!
Haynes Roadster (Finished)
Exocet (Finished & Sold)
New Project (Started)
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HappyFather
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| posted on 13/4/14 at 10:49 PM |
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I only have experience with a bike engine (CBR900RR) and I do notice that the left side of the engine bay gets really compact, with the engine,
steering arm, brake master cylinders, exhaust header...
By the way, if you plan on taking the car back to Germany, inform yourself of what expects you. I believe it was written here more than once in the
past that it is very difficult to import a locost and get it roadworthy in Germany.
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snapper
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| posted on 14/4/14 at 06:47 AM |
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Some plans give more room right hand side footwell
In the past some have tried 4WD using Sierra 4x4 running gear, the front drive take off intruded into drivers footwell, this would not be a problem
for a left hand drive
I eat to survive
I drink to forget
I breath to pi55 my ex wife off (and now my ex partner)
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Matt_1993
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| posted on 14/4/14 at 08:54 AM |
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Thanks for the replies!
@HappyFather, I see what you mean but the plan would be to build the roadster in Germany, I was only intending to import the donor car from the UK.
Also how common is the use of Mercedes-Benz's for these builds? Only wondering as there is a really big supply of them here in Germany all of
which look to be good solid donor cars!
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Slimy38
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| posted on 14/4/14 at 10:38 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt_1993
Thanks for the replies!
@HappyFather, I see what you mean but the plan would be to build the roadster in Germany, I was only intending to import the donor car from the UK.
Also how common is the use of Mercedes-Benz's for these builds? Only wondering as there is a really big supply of them here in Germany all of
which look to be good solid donor cars!
BMW's are pretty common, I have to admit I've not seen any MB based sevens. There are a couple of kits that are a 'reskin' or
bodykit type setup, but I've never thought of the Benz as being a cheap donor.
Then again, I do know that MB on the continent is like Ford or Vauxhall over here. I was truly shocked when I went to Wroclaw, a place that looked
like it had no significant income, yet all the taxis were Mercs!
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alfas
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| posted on 7/6/14 at 05:05 AM |
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some kits are asymetric in terms of driver and passenger space.
so if you plan to built a LHD car..it should be also a LHD kit....
at least the diagonal tubing which supports the pedal box needs be be on the left side.
this said, i do not know how the above said can be adapted to a Hynes roadster.
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drt
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| posted on 26/6/14 at 04:55 PM |
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Here I am again :p stealing someones topic ^^
Regarding getting it on the road in Germany...
Is it still possible to IVA a newly build LHD kitcar in the UK?
SVA used to do it... :s
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alfas
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| posted on 26/6/14 at 10:21 PM |
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are you aware that a "new" kit-car with a actual british registration cannot be re-homologated in germany?
for a (easy) re-registration in germany the british reg-date should be not later than 1992
this said, with a controlled catalytic converter and an original manufacturer´s enigne management, a quite exhaust and other bits and pieces you
might get a reg-date up to 1999 re-homologated.....
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drt
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| posted on 27/6/14 at 01:53 AM |
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Well I'm from Belgium... which is the greatest PITA EVER!
The rules here are ludicrous!
Believe me, Do not get me started on a rant 
I have spent my young life searching for gaps and holes
Germany is quite do-able... just do a good job and visit the TüV 
BUT, I'll quote european law.
"Any motor vehicle who has or ever had a registration within a european union country
Should and always will be able to recieve a registration within any country of this union."
So If a kitcar Passes the UK IVA and you can get it registered it makes life a whole lot easier anywhere else
Therefore I want to know if a LHD amateur vehicle is accepted by IVA ?
Rumours say no... but I can't find it in the IVA manual.
Oh, and yes... that particular piece of law was written here in Brussels...
Is true in any country... But in Belgium ^^
Haha, you can only laugh... and cry, quietly
[Edited on 27/6/14 by drt]
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HappyFather
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| posted on 27/6/14 at 06:52 AM |
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I'm building a LHD that I expect to IVA in the UK and then re-register in Portugal. I was told that IVA is possible BUT the fog light must be in
the UK side (behind the passenger) and the headlights must be proper for RHD and not for LHD (so, 2 things that need to be swapped either for IVA or
after IVA).
Do note that European law makes a distinction between a Type Certification, that makers like Ford and VW get for their cars, and a National
Certification.
A Type or European certification issued in one European Country is valid for all others.
A National Certification (like IVA) has specific unlegislated gaps that allow for national definitions (i.e. noise level) and, as such, emitted in one
country may not be accepted in other. The re-registration country may approve directly, request further tests and validations, request further
documentation from the original registration country or refuse outright.
Finally, remmember that European Law must be transcribed to each country's national law. You must read the Belgium law that puts EC 2007/46 into
place in your country and not EC 2007/46 directly.
Good luck!
HappyFather
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alfas
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| posted on 27/6/14 at 09:58 AM |
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outside UK kitcar registrations are completly different and more strict....a car once registered in UK does not automatically get re-homologated
outside UK.
99% of freshly built kitcars, with an actual regisatration date cannot be re-homologated outside UK.
only westfield or caterham have an "euro" modell, with COC paperwork.
its very complicated to explain the reason why in only a few centences as it would fill pages.....
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alfas
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| posted on 27/6/14 at 10:04 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by drt
Germany is quite do-able... just do a good job and visit the TüV
totally wrong.....a car with a reg-date max. 1992 might pass the TÜV (MOT) with a willing tester...any later car: its nearly a no
go
BUT, I'll quote european law.
"Any motor vehicle who has or ever had a registration within a european union country
Should and always will be able to recieve a registration within any country of this union."
but local laws stand over the european law. also IVA is a local tye approval which is therefore not accepted outside UK
[Edited on 27/6/14 by drt]
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drt
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| posted on 28/6/14 at 09:49 PM |
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Any country may adjust the european laws to some extend.
In any case this is the eu law on importing vehicles.
I'm not talking about ECOC or COC (mandatory since 2001).
Which is a completely different matter.
I checked it out and your right on the TÜV part.
My mistake, I didn't take into account the emissions :s.
What I meant with germany is do-able, is that in Germany at least you get a chance.
In belgium the'll send you walkies no matter what... Unless you are a certified vehicle constructor.
Then. Once a car passed registration in a eu country, than it doesn't matter what type of approval it has.
According to EU law it must be eligible...
I'll give you a nice example about how Ludicrous we Belgians can be.
Example,
Buying an MGF (1996 or any) in the uk and import it.
We have this car over here too.
but, you'll go through tax, pay a little fee and recieve a form 705 (declaration to put it into traffic)
The Law hides behind this, being now 'registered' in Belgium (aka you paid), therefore they have followed EU law
BUT
since a 1996 car rarely has an ECOC you need to apply for a Belgian COC
Oh, I'll just visit the importer for MG... Oh wait ?? crap.
So there is no way of getting an COC and PVG for this car...
So you'll have to do Belgian IVA... requiring it to be treated as a new automobile
Result is you can get 'imported' cars very very cheap over here ^^
And I know the reasons why... getting a ECOC requires you do do extensive testing wit the TÜV or the dutch RDW...
And costs fortunes.
Oh and thanks "HappyFather" for your insight I still do have 1 trick up my sleeve...
[Edited on 28/6/14 by drt]
[Edited on 29/6/14 by drt]
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alfas
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| posted on 29/6/14 at 11:20 AM |
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"What I meant with germany is do-able, is that in Germany at least you get a chance. "
thats correct...but this chance mostly ends in "we needs this, that and another approval certificate"...once you have collected everything
(if you are even able to get certain certificates)..."oh, we also need an approval of xy..and for xz...and by the way you need to bring the car
to our certified emission lab to simulate an EURO4 cycle on the rollers...costs 1500,-€"...."ah and the car is too loud...you need to
bring it down to 75db"...."and have you already organised the certificate for EMC and whats about the certificate of the fibreglass body
in terms of an accident?...
and the list goes on.....
this means: yes, you have a chance...but this chance will hardly become reality because you will struggle or give up to get all the certificates.
its easier importing an "older" kitcar, roughly until reg-date 1992, where nearly all above mentioned things arent necessary.
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drt
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| posted on 29/6/14 at 11:58 PM |
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 Sorry Alfas,
Didn't know the Germans were such a pain
My info was from our Belgian DAX dealer who described the process differently ...
And to obtain TÜV before trying Here.
PS; 75DB!!!!!! 
Do they still require you to offer up a second chassis for them to do 'destructive testing ' ?
Anyway I got an personal email from a very nice Locost guest
Thanks Marco!
apparently the have altered the regs last year ! for the exact reason I described in the former post.
Now indeed you can import a car As EU registration would be equal to an ECOC number
Still building a car from scratch remains a (slightly less) pain.
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alfas
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| posted on 30/6/14 at 08:55 AM |
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but you are right...some kitcars are easier to re-homologate in france, belgium or italy when they have passed the german MOT (TÜV).
but again: with a willing MOT Tester you will easily pass the test if the car has a reg-date 1992 or younger...anything later needs a controlled
catalytic converter, plus lots of other things.
another interesting thing is: most DAX Rush with V8 are changing the reg-date to "older" after they have crossed the channel ....
[Edited on 30/6/14 by alfas]
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Bigmac61
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| posted on 5/8/14 at 08:03 AM |
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Hi all,
I'm new here, and sorry for butting in, but didn't know if I should have started a new post or join this one.
I have a question for which I have been searching in vain up and down for a straight answer: whether or not it is possible to take a Locost (or any
other Seven replica which isn't a Caterham or Westfield) to Germany and get it passed though the TUV and registered. In my case it would be a
Locost with a 1972 Escort engine and SVA'd in 2003 as a Locost.
I hear many different versions, opinions and tales of a very difficult procedures and costly tests, although I haven't quite understood if there
have been any success stories which haven't cost an arm and a leg and/or left the car practically destroyed (trial of the witch). I also see
classified ads for several right hand drive "non-Caterham/Westfield" Sevens for sale with German plates, and I am wondering whether they
have been brought over from the UK and then registered, or built in Germany, for which approval and registration might be easier.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
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alfas
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| posted on 5/8/14 at 07:34 PM |
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"in my case it would be a Locost with a 1972 Escort engine and SVA'd in 2003 as a Locost. "
the definite answer is NO
amongst lots of other things the main reason are emissions:
AGAIN: in germany the emission classification is done by the registration date, NOT the engine age ...2003 = Euro3
so you need to fullfill EURO 3, plus reduced noise levels plus..plus...plus....and even more difficult as its a locost, where the chassis can be
homemade..and therefore nobody can tell anything about strenghtness etc.....
the cars you have seen advertized or on the road are kitcars with a reg. date before mid 1992..
but there is one possibility for foreigners bringing their cars into germany:
if you change your centre of living to germany and move from UK to germany the car is declared as "household goods" therefore the
discritct president (director of an intermediate regional authority between the administration of a Bundesland (federal state) and that of a Kreis
(county) ) can
issue an exeptional permit for your car, but:
this isnt a law its "only" a discretionary provision..so you arent entitled to claim for it.
[Edited on 5/8/14 by alfas]
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Bigmac61
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| posted on 5/8/14 at 09:02 PM |
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Hi Alfas,
Thanks for the very helpful reply.
So, just to understand, am I correct in saying:
1. I have no chance of getting my Locost passed thru' the TUV and registered in Germany since it was first registered in 2003.
2. If my Locost was SVA'd / registered prior to mid-1992 I'd have no or fewer problems, as many prerequisites don't apply to cars of
this age, including the fact the chassis is home-made.
3. If it were a Caterham or Westfield, I'd have no (or less) problem, since their chassis' etc., are already approved by TUV/DEKRA.
Also, you are right; all the Sevens for sale in Germany are RHD (so ex-UK) and have been registered prior to mid-1992. However, since some look like
they have just come out of the factory and have very low mileage, could it be they weren't Q-plated and instead kept the original donor
car's registration date and number plate?
Lastly, regarding the possibility you mentioned of being granted an "exeptional permit" / "discretionary provision" in
Germany, can you say what this is in German, to whom/where the request could be made, and where I can find more info?
Cheers.
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alfas
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| posted on 5/8/14 at 09:36 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Bigmac61
Hi Alfas,
Thanks for the very helpful reply.
So, just to understand, am I correct in saying:
1. I have no chance of getting my Locost passed thru' the TUV and registered in Germany since it was first registered in 2003.
2. If my Locost was SVA'd / registered prior to mid-1992 I'd have no or fewer problems, as many prerequisites don't apply to cars of
this age, including the fact the chassis is home-made.
3. If it were a Caterham or Westfield, I'd have no (or less) problem, since their chassis' etc., are already approved by TUV/DEKRA.
Also, you are right; all the Sevens for sale in Germany are RHD (so ex-UK) and have been registered prior to mid-1992. However, since some look like
they have just come out of the factory and have very low mileage, could it be they weren't Q-plated and instead kept the original donor
car's registration date and number plate?
Lastly, regarding the possibility you mentioned of being granted an "exeptional permit" / "discretionary provision" in
Germany, can you say what this is in German, to whom/where the request could be made, and where I can find more info?
Cheers.
1: correct
2. correct
3. NO: only a few westfield or caterham models have a COC paperwork and often those models arent offered in UK..vice versa: UK models, even newer
ones, are not the same as the ones for EU export, so even the newer UK models will fail over here or france or certain other EU countries.
"However, since some look like they have just come out of the factory and have very low mileage, could it be they weren't Q-plated and
instead kept the original donor car's registration date and number plate?"
no...as the "orginal donor plate thing" was practically dismissed when SVA came into force , around 1996, so most imports are former
q-plated cars, old but in good nick,....or they are "newer" cars where the registration date was illegaly changed using a v5c from another
car. (like a v5c from a sylva star for a newer striker, or a westfield se v5c from 1989 model for a 2000 car...and the 2000car v5c was re-sold to Uk
...)
back to the exeptional permit:
you can file this petition to the authorities only AFTER you have moved to germany....not in advance. ok...you can already ask in advance what
documents you need and how the procedure is done.
so you need to have a german adress and THAN you can apply for this exemption. obviously you need to pass the german TÜV (mot)
its called "ausnahmegenehmigung für fahrzeugzulassung hinsichtlich abgasnorm" and you need to apply it at the
"regierungspräsidium"
[Edited on 5/8/14 by alfas]
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Bigmac61
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| posted on 6/8/14 at 06:25 AM |
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Thanks again.
Regarding the exceptional permit, what exactly would the car be exempt from: just compliance to Euro 3 emmissions, or also noise levels,
'destructive/expensive' rolling road / track tests, etc.?
"you can file this petition to the authorities only AFTER you have moved to germany" - Can I take the car to Germany before filing the
petition? Must I prove I have owned the car for 'x' months (I have only recently purchased it) to qualify for household goods / personal
effects?
"obviously you need to pass the german TÜV (mot)" - OK, all usual exams and tests with the exception of the above; otherwise I'm
back at stage 1.
If it doesn't pass the TUV, would I be allowed, and for how long, to continue to drive the car in Germany with UK reg and papers?
Sorry for the quantity of questions, but you seem very knowledgeable on the subject and the best help I have been able to find.
Cheers.
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alfas
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| posted on 6/8/14 at 10:01 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Bigmac61
Thanks again.
Regarding the exceptional permit, what exactly would the car be exempt from: just compliance to Euro 3 emmissions, or also noise levels,
'destructive/expensive' rolling road / track tests, etc.?
--> exactly
"you can file this petition to the authorities only AFTER you have moved to germany" - Can I take the car to Germany before filing the
petition? Must I prove I have owned the car for 'x' months (I have only recently purchased it) to qualify for household goods / personal
effects?
--> the car need to be here b4 the petition is filled, no prove about ownership necessary, but as i remember you arent allowed to re-sell it within
a certain time.
"obviously you need to pass the german TÜV (mot)" - OK, all usual exams and tests with the exception of the above; --> exactly
If it doesn't pass the TUV, would I be allowed, and for how long, to continue to drive the car in Germany with UK reg and papers? --> yes
you can drive it as long as you have a valid british mot...could be an alternative: you keep it registered in UK and anually drive to UK for its
MOT
Sorry for the quantity of questions, but you seem very knowledgeable on the subject and the best help I have been able to find.
Cheers.
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