after eight years and two builds its time for a change so going from bec to cec

evo 1


single tl1000s with a 50hp shot of nitrous

evo 2


wide track and bigger brakes

evo 3


twin tl1000s with progressive nitrous system making 210whp and an extra 100hp of nitrous for drag and general hooning .
martin keenan did the bulk of the build and chris mason wired it .

no issues with the build but the constant maintenance and noise issues got really tiresome as well as awful fuel economy it was time for a change .



doesnt look much but this little sleeper makes 485hp and 470lb/ft on a bone stock 2.0 engine ,no fancy head gasket just bolted a big holset truck turbo 630cc injectors and a 3 bar map sensor and i have run this for nearly 2 years with no issues apart from destroying a few gearboxes ,the downside is it takes a bit of waking up so the power is from 3500-7000rpm .i have never known a stock engine take so much abuse without complaining and for the money i think the saab 204 takes some beating going from 150hp to nearly 500hp with no mods so it makes sense to make better use of it and stick it in the back of the kitten
that leaves a big hole up to 3500rpm so looked into adding a supercharger after the turbo to give good response low down and get the turbo spooled up around 3000rpm





supercharger is from a 2007 slk merk and is an eaton m62 which on the pulley ratio will make 6psi with the turbo making 14psi compounds the boost to 24psi which is around 450hp and on paper should be making 300lb/ft at 3000rpm and hold 350-400lbft all the way to 6500rpm .
an air to air intercooler goes between the turbo and supercharger then into a chargecooler before the throttle body .

my dilemma now is do i go for bigger wheels as i love the handling on the 13" wheels and will have some issues making room in the footwells to accomodate bigger rims ,i didnt have brake issues with the twin tl engines but im looking at twice the power and nearly three times the torque so brakes could be a big issue

[Edited on 16/3/11 by froggy]

well that looks like great fun . somewhat confused by the seemingly random saab, is that just a runabout while the project is the... err... is that a reliant van?

ha ha, you would get on with Ian an absoulute treat

not quite in your league, but a nutter all the same

N/A Cosworth, accralite pistons, kent L1/BD3 cams, twin 45's, 250bhp + N2O
Fitted in a.....Reliant Kitten (modified a lot!). 11.88@114.47



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g_sNPbKQbM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj0woo_Nc8M

theres loads of footage of that lil yellow car on youtube always makes me smile, hes a clever bloke, but got a very dry sense of humour, never know if he really is taking the wee or joking LOL

[Edited on 16/3/11 by tony-devon]

i did a photo shoot with ian a couple of years back but we never managed to meet up for a head to head drag race while i had the twin tl 1000,s in although i was running consistent 11.5 1/4mile .

the saab is where ive pinched the engine from and yes it was a kitten van but now will be a saloon as i need to let a lot of heat out of the rear and get easy access to see whats going on or rather falling off


thats the dyno run from the 2.0 saab lump thats now in the back of the kitten , ive added a quaife atb to the saab gearbox

thought you would know him, you nutters all together LOL

was that the PPC feature and shoot,

I just cant help but smile when that car starts, its mental and handles like its on rails

yours must be brain mushing

im hoping this will be the last time i re build the kitten as im taking a leaf out of ians book and adding some creature comforts like padded seats and decent sound insulation

there was a lot of metalwork holding the twin bike engines together so i dont think the new drivetrain will add a lot of weight so i should still be around the 750kg mark when its finished

very well done on the engine choice. the b204 rocks


Great minds think alike. I been pottering away on this all winter

Not wishing to be contrary, but how are you getting 450hp from 630cc injectors? Monster fuel pressure?

Good question. That usually takes 750 - 1000 cc injectors.

it could be done running batch fire as you get an extra pulse on the exhaust stroke. the saab being a boosted engine doesn't have much overlap on the cams so its quite possible.

Quality. Would love a go in that.

what a great project I however would not love a ride in it as it's too scary

The 630 cc injectors are good for just over 500hp at. 2.5 bar pressure . These siemens deka 630cc are popular with lots of turbo engines as they still have good control low dow. I'm running 750cc in the kitten to give me some headroom if I want to go over 550hp but I'm pretty sure 450hp will be plenty.

It always felt like it could handle more power when I had the twin bike engines but that was down to the lack of torque low down although it still went well peak torque was 170lb/ft at 5500rpm will be closer to 450lb/ft with the Saab lump .

I didn't buy kurts book until the twin engined build was done so I can copy a lot of ideas from kimini , the main one is using a saloon rear end instead of the van body .

bit more progress today ,finally got the gearchange right and was worth the effort to re-make the brackets a couple of times .

the exhaust is as far as i can go until i figure out the design for the silencer ,marathon pipework session tomorrow getting all the boost pipe runs sorted with as little silicone as i can get away with

That is awesome!

Like the 5 link DeDion too

Very nice. That will have some silly BHP tonne figure, Im sure you have worked it out.

Around the 500 mark I guess.

No idea about the power to weight but im more interested in the torque so il be happy with around 400hp peak even though the turbo on it's own made 500hp on the same engine .

It should make 250 lb/ft at 2500rpm ,300 at 3000 and 400lb/ft at 3700 then hold that right up to 7000 rpm at that hp level .

Going for it with water / meth injection will see closer to 600flywheel hp

dogs knob !!!!!



Love it

You said you are using the supercharger to blow into the turbo.

Normal practice is to do it the other way, with a simple mechanical diverter to bypass the super when the turbo exceeds the blower pressure.

This system has been in use on Detroit diesels since the second war or more. I've seen your system tried on race boat engines, and it can have problems with the seals on the turbo. When reverted to the reverse, no problems.

Unless you're going to run the engine like this hard for extended periods, then you'll probably be OK. Hope so.

Cheers,
Nev.

i didnt make it clear but the holset blows into the supercharger .the hardware is good for 600+hp but charge air temps will be the limiting factor . 300whp will be ample in a light car so 400fly hp should be repeatable if the intercooling and inlet temps can be kept under control .

water/meth injection is another option but id be happier not to have to use it if possible

I got to say I still don't understand how you're supposing you can extract 450hp from that size of injector, as above, and as far as I'm aware it's jus not possible at stock fuel pressures - fuel flow at 100% doesn't deliver enough energy in the form of chemicals to create that power? You need 750+cc/min per port to get that, and that's with them locked open?

http://www.injector.com/injectorselection.php
Batch fire doesn't mean you're doing 2 squirts per cycle, it just means you're firing all at the same time. If you run 2 squirts per cycle you'll be running into problems at high RPM due to the injection pulsewidth sum being longer than a cycle, two pulses per cycle makes no sense at all as you just add more dead time (pintle movement) - you might as well just open once and for longer.


Still, interesting project, I'm enjoying the details.

[Edited on 4/4/11 by coyoteboy]

Go on uk saabs and there are a few cars making near to 500 hp on the deka 630 cc injectors . The dyno from my 9k showing 486hp is on 630cc injectors and guys in the states have pushed them to 430 whp on pump fuel.

I'm the wrong guy to prove they can make 500 hp but I've had 10hp either side of 500hp from 3 different dyno,s

I'm going up to 750cc for the kitten but injector dc was just under 90% on the 630,

Have a search on the siemens 630 deka injectors for flw rates

All the posts I just read on uk saabs suggested 275-300 is about the limit on the 630s? Many suggesting raising the fuel pressure with a better pump and adjustable FPR to eek a little more out?

<edit>

I've just been reading further and it seems those claiming higher are doubling the fuel pressure. Explains it!

[Edited on 4/4/11 by coyoteboy]

I'm using a walbro pump at stock pressure , look at siemens site the 630,s will make 100whp per cylinder comfortably.

The standard aero injectors will support 300 hp as I've done it a few times

I'm assuming something odd is happening then because that's different to every other car and set of injectors I've ever met and every tuner I've ever spoken to. It's a pretty standard accepted requirement to fit SARD 800cc injectors to get 450hp from a 2 litre 4 cyl in just about every other car, using stock fuel pressure. Every injector calculator available will place 750cc injectors at their limits at 450hp, so how are these any different? By definition a specified fuel flow limits the power throughput (though clearly at higher pressures you could put much more power through them, but you specify stock pressure which is 43psi at which the 630cc rating is given?).
I'm genuinely interested as I've been considering an adjustable rising rate FPR to compensate for my tiny 440cc injectors as it is.

[Edited on 4/4/11 by coyoteboy]

I concur Froggy


My Saab T7 on brown injectors will top out at 300bhp, currently now about 280 ish. Thats with a stock fuel pump and 3.5bar fpr.


A T5 with 630cc Dekas and 3.5bar fpr and related hardware/software will easily make 450bhp, common to see them over 500bhp.



You seen this site Froggy ?



http://www.ericsaabsite.com/

[Edited on 4/4/11 by T66]

I'm finding this slightly irritating as I can't work out how you're breaking the laws of physics Stock brown injectors are meant to be about 350cc/min? How, without a large fuel pressure change, do you get to 275-300 with them? I'm not disagreeing with you (I can see plenty of sites claiming 125 hp/cyl on the 630s, but only at greatly raised fuel pressure), I'm just a bit baffled. You'd need the BSFC of a highly tuned, variable valve timed N/A car to get even close to 450hp from 630cc/min evenwith them operating at 100% DC.

[Edited on 4/4/11 by coyoteboy]

Its the wonderful world of saabs where things don't make sense, like how Can a totally stock engine go from 150hp to 500 without exploding .

The 630,s are working hard to do it but my old 9k fully loaded at 1500kg did a 13.2 1/4 at 120mph trap at pod last September so it's making a bit more than 280hp .

Nothing special going on here: Standard 3bar fuel pressure and 630cc injectors starting to max out at 100% by 500bhp and you are pretty much there. I tried a few online calculators and they seem to be very close.
Also need to consider what is considered as the right amount of fuel? Usually it's about 11.5 to 12AFR for a nice top end. If you want 10.5 then you need more fuel.... Is the AFR included in these calcs?

Doing it by the book you'd want 80% max duty and run 750cc. That way if the engine runs into the knock fuelling maps it's got plenty in reserve.

I've got the same 630cc on my B234R and dynoed at 507crank on a Maha dyno. Add some fudge factor and it's still a solid 480bhp or thereabouts. (Maha's are usually pretty good at CHP)

Which calculators did you use? I'm not sure which AFR they select for the choice, but you can bet your bottom dollar it's not richer than it needs to be - I'd guess at 12.5:1 as they seem to be geared around N/A engines. To run richer you'd need even more. I could list you literally 5 calcs that all give the same results that put 500 outside the scope of 630s on stock fuel unless (and sometimes even if) you forget to chance the BSFC.

im not sure where this is going but there are several saab owners running close to 500 hp on those injectors with dyno proven results to back it up .

on paper my 9000 shouldnt whup a v10 audi r8 from 70-160mph but it does

it's not going anywhere lol. im just trying to identify how this could be the case,im not calling anyone a liar, just wondering why saab lumps are not internationally renowned race engines if its so easy to get silly powerffom, when companies spend 5 digit figures getting more universally accepted performance engines make that power. with the added confusion that it seems saab owners are the only people who can re-write the book on fuel flow and physics?

i will be racing alongside a monster kitten this year, cant seem to add attachment so its in my photo archive (tiddles) Worth a look!

Ed

like i said saabs are a bit strange ,the b204/234 from 94-98 are a result of saab engineers getting their own way as the quality went downhill rapidly once the gm bean counters got involved .

the 204 and 234 spent their lives in fairly dull cars driven by nice people so never appeared on the performance horizon but the motor is a gem having a good head design chain driven with twin balance shafts and a very strong bottom end .

bang for buck its in a league of its own tuning wise as the saab ecu has excellent knock control and a free resource for tuning via a fairly cheap can/usb adaptor .

i hammered my 9000 for 12 months running 480ish hp with no issues other than a few broken gearboxes and a fried clutch, the only failure ive had was when i started tuning the vgt holset im using now and hit 3 bar boost lifting the head and hydraulic locking cly1 .

this is the new turbo


this is it next to the normal tdo4 turbo from the aero




the stock bottom end is coping with 650+hp in europe and the us

this whole 'it'll work' / it won't work will go on for ever

just get it done and prove him wrong froggy it looks awesome

quote:

---

Originally posted by catman
i will be racing alongside a monster kitten this year, cant seem to add attachment so its in my photo archive (tiddles) Worth a look!

Ed

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by coyoteboy
it's not going anywhere lol. im just trying to identify how this could be the case,im not calling anyone a liar, just wondering why saab lumps are not internationally renowned race engines if its so easy to get silly powerffom, when companies spend 5 digit figures getting more universally accepted performance engines make that power. with the added confusion that it seems saab owners are the only people who can re-write the book on fuel flow and physics?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by froggy
im not sure where this is going but there are several saab owners running close to 500 hp on those injectors with dyno proven results to back it up .

on paper my 9000 shouldnt whup a v10 audi r8 from 70-160mph but it does

---

I just dont get it, all the theory in the world matters for nothing, it has the injectors fitted & it makes the power, where's the problem?!

What I can say for sure is when I & the others at Santa Pod that day saw the plain green 9000 run up the strip we were stunned!
In the somewhat lighter kitten it's going to be very impressive.

Saabinator 2 only needs to lose 1/2 a second to beat the current challenge record of 12.8 for the 1/4 . I may need to fashion some sort of undertray to catch the bits of gearbox or engine if I can't get control over the monster holset , it's already eaten two conrods

Looks like a tidy project ill keep my eye out for you when its done

quote:

---

I just dont get it, all the theory in the world matters for nothing, it has the injectors fitted & it makes the power, where's the problem?!

---

Wish I could tell you why but the science bit isnt me . Most of my customers didn't believe me until I had dyno results .

The 204/234 is just an oddity that,s been massively over engineered

quote:

---

Originally posted by coyoteboy

quote:

---

I just dont get it, all the theory in the world matters for nothing, it has the injectors fitted & it makes the power, where's the problem?!

---

There's no problem, I asked how. Do you normally just accept anything you hear without questioning it in order to learn? I want to know what makes Saab engines totally different from just about every other turbocharged engine that does follow the theory. I might consider the engine myself for a future project, and I won't do that based on some random comments on a forum, I want to know the details so I can understand and justify it myself.

[Edited on 4/4/11 by coyoteboy]

---

.............well bun fights and pi55ing competitions aside, that's one great little project

How are you getting that power down on 13" rims though?

good luck, I'm sure there will be a lot watching!

Steve

No bunfights here, you big drama queens. Jeeze a guy asks a few questions and everyone thinks he's having a go, get a grip people.

quote:

---

To help understand how, register at the ecuproject.com.

---

Coyote...

I'm pretty sure most people on here/out there are aware that you are asking because you need to know, and not because you doubt their word...

I for one love it when a man can't accept something and carries on quizzing to learn WITHOUT losing his temper, so well done for continueing trying to learn!!!

I'm afraid I've never studied ANYTHING at all re injector capabilities, so i take what has been said above as truth (Everyone's point of view! ).

On top of that, All I'll add is to Froggy, well done mate, and crack on. Looks like fantastic project! Can't wait to see it complete!!!

ATB
Steve

quote:

---

Originally posted by froggy

quote:

---

Originally posted by catman
i will be racing alongside a monster kitten this year, cant seem to add attachment so its in my photo archive (tiddles) Worth a look!

Ed

---

i think thats the tvr chassis car that been around for years , im pretty sure ive seen most of the road legal hot kittens

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by coyoteboy
No bunfights here, you big drama queens. Jeeze a guy asks a few questions and everyone thinks he's having a go, get a grip people.

quote:

---

To help understand how, register at the ecuproject.com.

---

I'd sign up but I can't register, the page is 404. However I tune ECU's fairly regularly both at work and play, what's different?

---

Steve - cheers, just naturally very inquisitive but it does tend to get some peoples backs up! Fortunately those in the know here have been patient with me!


Regarding the link - yep the main page is up but you (I) can't get the "sign up" page to load, I get 404.

not much to show but finally settled on the mounts for the air to air intercooler and got all the boost hose runs mocked up


working on the front end now carving bigger holes in the inner wheelarches to gain some steering lock and modify the pedals for heel and toe etc

[Edited on 7/4/11 by froggy]





[Edited on 8/4/11 by froggy]

Hello,
Just a quick question, between the b204 and b234, if you starting from scratch which would you choose

Cheers
David

what its going in and what sort of power are you looking for ?





[Edited on 9/4/11 by froggy]

It would be a mid engined mini, standardish power to start with, tuned later on, not so much for outright power more for ease of driving.

Cheers
David

[Edited on 9/4/11 by Minicooper]

that sounds familiar

if your on 13" wheels try and find a complete 2.3 lpt car which will have the taller 3.61 final drive . most of the 2 litre manual cars have the 4,05 final drive which is fine on 16" wheels but too short for little wheels .

for small cars like ours the 204 does rev well and with a set of t5 volvo valve springs (£70) will rev to 7500 quite happily .

the 234 from a lpt car with the t25 will make 200hp with a couple of simple tweaks and they share injectors with the aero so can support 300hp with a bigger turbo

have a look on ecu project as you can tweak the stock hardware with a can usb lead .

have a look at how i sorted my drive shafts as you may have more issues with the standard mini track .

a full car is cheaper than buying and engine ,box ,loom etc and if your donor is a cse you could have cruise control as well

my road car was a £200 mot failure with full history and 70k.

looking at your pictures your rear end is similar to mine so you might sneak the lump in but the drive shafts will be mega short if you run standard track

[Edited on 9/4/11 by froggy]

id agree on the massively over engineered saab aswell .

its not just volvos that can do big power with little work , unfortunately the volvo b234 , never came in turbo form , but youll see swedes turning the wick up to 1000hp and 7 and 8 second quarters .

i think if you count safety as a priority in injectors youll always need more headroom to allow for average joe , and as said before your aguring about BSFC at the now much more efficient 2 bar with a proper sized turbo , it all changes .

and to justify it , i have 660cc injectors for my volvo b234 turbo , and that should make 500 hp

its also not just over engineering , with the right setup , you can avoid , det, pre ign etc which can destroy an engine - bend rods etc .

theres a guy running a std B20 pushrod motor ( in essence)in a 142 in sweden , all std internals , that runs 11 sec quarters , so its all possible .

compared to turbo management systems from other turbo cars of that age the saab system is miles ahead and still has better knock protection than most standalones that are available today .

the 204/234 does make best power towards the lean end of the mixture range so the apc system needs to do its job ,bleed valves are a bad idea .


[Edited on 9/4/11 by froggy]

Thanks Froggy/Volvosport,
This is for another mini which uses haynes roadster double wishbone at the front, de dion at the rear and ford sierra running gear all round, so the track is the same as a ford sierra so I should be alright with the driveshafts, I'm also using 15" team dynamics which are close in size to the original saab wheels.

Originally I was going to fit a Honda Blackbird engine I already have, but the idea of chain drive and mucking about with electric reverse is getting less and less appealing. Also using the ford running gear, big brakes and large wheels the mini will not be particularly light for a bike engined car, the idea of using a saab turbo engine just gets more interesting

Cheers
David

pretty much run out of things to mock up bar the coolant and fuel lines so ripped it apart to start the marathon final wels session








the 2.0 engine came from a low pressure turbo car with 90k on it and just needs a head gasket ,stem seals and a newer pair of timing chain guides . As usual all the cross hatch marks in the bore are still visible and no sign of wear in the mains or big end bearings .

luckily i have a block with a big hole in the side of it that will donate all the bits so the fresh engine will cost a wopping £13 for the head gasket

people going north of 500hp seem to change the fuel supply system so im going to run twin bosch external pumps with 8mm bore feeds that go into a small accumulator before the fuel rail

Another way of reducing turbo lag is to use nitros with a pressure sensor in the inlet manifold to cut it off once the psi is high enough to spool up your turbo, I beleave some people have used an oil pressure switch to do this but have no experience of it myself, but may be an alternative to a supercharger if space is tight and would probably cheaper to install.

rear end fabrication done and painted







after being on stands for a few months it looks tiny back on its wheels

Hello,
What diameter tube have you used for the main de dion axle?

Cheers
David

i think its 3mm wall 1 3/4 od tube but its actually a piece of scaffold tube

Awsome, My next project will be saab powered.

Nice to see the SAAB driveshafts are equal length That jackshaft setup looks very strong.

at the risk of giving coyote boy an embolism heres what my saab 9000 road car running a variable vane vgt holset made on a hub dyno using 630cc injectors this morning at mallory park and this is wheel horse power not crank so another 60hp would be a fair guess

a few bits done


body chucked on for mocking up the rear frame to carry the body


coolant and chargecooler pipes running down the tunnel



now working on the dashboard which will have a car pc for easy mapping and constant live data from the ecu for loggging

I am loving that engine

i have a spare coil pack (black) from my dearly departed blondie if anyone wants to purchase it from me

quote:

---

at the risk of giving coyote boy an embolism heres what my saab 9000 road car running a variable vane vgt holset made on a hub dyno using 630cc injectors this morning at mallory park and this is wheel horse power not crank so another 60hp would be a fair guess

---

Not commenting on the engine as I know diddly about what he's up to but at least the dyno run was on a Dynapack dyno rather than a stupid Dynojet thing so at least the numbers have the potential to be realistic.

When the engines in boost would the fuel pressure not go up?

Yes, but that's to compensate for the differential pressure change across the injectors (ie to maintain the ~43psi between rail and atmosphere, and so the same flow characteristics), resulting in a net zero gain in pressure with respect to air (generally, you can buy FPRs that ramp up faster but it's a poor mans solution and not normal in OEM engines).

[Edited on 23/6/11 by coyoteboy]

Ah ha I hadn't thought of that. That was the only thing I could think of. Makes you wonder doesn't it...

certainly does, quite an interesting engine to say the least. 110kg dry, 500hp on standard internals, able to make monster power off fairly small injectors (i.e. great fuel economy), makes you wonder why it's not a recognised race series engine.

[Edited on 23/6/11 by coyoteboy]

The only difference I can see between my set up and others is the vgt turbo where with the vane fully open I get backpressure ratio of 1-1 where boost and back pressure are equal . I assume this is possible due to the massive turbine housing which is believed to be 25cm 3 or a/r of nearly 2.0 which is very unusual . It certainly feels like it wants to hold well over 2bar as it is rock solid up to

Time to crack out my differential gauges!

That turbo sounds awesome is it a standard part or from a tuning company?

The turbo is a he351 vgt holset normally fitted to dodge ram diesels . There are a few people in the us trying to come up with a useable solution to controlling the sliding vane but it's such a huge turbo its hard to find room to fit it in a normal front or rear drive car .

ffffoooodge me, that's large.




[Edited on 23/6/11 by coyoteboy]

thats a 431ve which is a bit smaller than the 531 heres mine


heres the vane control set up with a pair of actuators ,the left is a vacuum actuator to pull the vane open under vac conditions for low egt etc and the right one is boost fed to push the vane open as boost rises


cosworth yb rod compared to the saab b204 rod

quite a bit heavier too


pretty strong either way round


i did step up to 870cc injectors and ran 2 bar but ran into a few issues with boost control so the motor is back out again

Nice rod, shame about the piston

That turbo makes my subaru td05 look like a toy!

Holset vgt vs tdo4 19t



Although it has a variable vane there is a limit to how low it can spool purely down to the fact that it has journal bearings and the sheer size of it .



[Edited on 23/6/11 by froggy]

with regards to the scepticism of the deka 630cc injectors and their ability to support the bhp quoted, has anyone thought that the manufacturer may have aired on the side of caution with the 630 designation? maybe like the SAAB parts, they too are a bit over engineered or not got the added boy racer BS factor added (this air filter will give ya anova 50hp mister...)

if its making the power on a reputable dyno and the AFRs are sensible, it makes the power-end of.

dash ready for drilling big holes in

a few more oles

bit more done

froggy do you need to find a home for the td04?

long gone mate and not a big fan as i broke two 19t hybrids trying to push past 300hp due to shaft flex .

Neat work Froggy.

That looks the part.

red is chargecooler blue for engine coolant

I'm expecting a cease and desist letter from ariel any day now lol it's a hariel katom

few more bits done and he wiring starts on monday

decided to move up to 15" wheels to give room for brake upgrades if needed plus much greater tyre choice .

bit crowded round the turbo but i have a big heat shield to go on to keep the bulkhead from melting


tank back in and now i need to work out if there is anything to be gained by directing the hot air from the rad out of the wheel arches or up through some holes in the bonnet ,i had no issues running the twin bike engines with an uprated micra rad but i think there will be a lot n=more heat to deal with from the new set up .


[Edited on 28/8/11 by froggy]

looks great dude

nice work

http://youtu.be/N3Ms0mPJSDQ

a few niggles to deal with but the hardware seems to work ok . im seeing a few psi of boost from the turbo with no load on too which is a good sign

Froggy - It just gets better whenever you post....


Brilliant

Awesome work! First time I've seen this thread as I'm pretty new on here, and I've just read it start to finish!

dash wiring finished and pc up and running

WOW! How is that?

Just fantastic.

Is the computer, as per the one on ecuproject with the live sid etc ?


ipod,mp3

It's a car pc with t5 and various other guff on it so I can log etc but I will be running a bdm into the ecu so I cam hard flash with the ecu still fixed in the car

Good stuff - Never followed that route with mine, as the open sid did everything I wanted.


Dash looks good !



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSM51B5mguE

[Edited on 30/9/11 by T66]

A few gentle trips show that it all works ok with no major issues but a few mods needed on the twin charged set up . Firstly I forgot to add a second blow off valve between the turbo and the supercharger inlet which meant the charger got a shove of boost whilst trying to Open the the bypass with vac from the shut throttle which caused the belt to slip .

Next issue was a load of boost leaks which are now sorted but I need to get the extra dump valve in before any more testing . The main issue is the bypass which is the original butterfly valve on the s/c operated by a vac actuator . I need to rig up a cable to hold it shut as I'm pretty sure it's getting pushed open by the turbo and it would be better to replace it with an external wastegate with a line from either side of the throttle body so it looks for pressure difference which with the throttle open
Should be zero and oriented so that boost pushes the valve against it's seat should seal well and depending on spring strength should be pretty linear in response where the butterfly probably only needs a few degrees of movement to unload the supercharger .

Having said that despite all the issues I saw 7psi from the turbo and 15psi coming out of the s/c and 1bar at 2500rpm .
If I was going for all out power it probably needs the s/c unloading to let the turbo do it's thing but judging on the performance I don't see that becoming an issue , I have the boost control solenoid running through a switch in the car so a simple way of doing it would be to run a straight signal to the turbo actuator and use the solenoid to bleed boost off one side of the bypass wastegate to unload the charger once the turbo is really into it's stride at 1.2 bar

whilst looking at building a bypass for the supercharger i pulled the outlet cover off to find this



at first i thought something had gone through the charger but looking closer the damage is towards the rear of the rotors where they sit in needle bearings. the first couple of drives showed that the single dump valve was struggling to vent enough air causing the belt to slip so i put another one in and it improved but the noise from the valves blowing off was horrendous although having no idea what a twin charged car should sound like blowing off i didnt think it was a problem but i know better now.

the issue was having the throttle before the supercharger which isnt normally an issue but put a turbo behind it and every time you lift there is a slight delay before the dump valves open where the supercharger pumps against a closed throttle and pressures rise high enough to push the rotors apart and contact the case

the next issue is that what i thought was an m62 turns out to be an m45 which merc went back to in 2000 so picked up an earlier m62 and converted the huge clutch pulley to fixed drive at 2-1 ratio



the charger will run in vacuum now so im using a bypass from a supercharged mini which is self contained


taken another look at the pipe work and coolers and have gone for a big single chargecooler and have ended up with a much neater system with only 3 bends in total .losing the old log manifold wil help too as i used to get knock from cyl 1 as it got a bit more than the other at 2 bar so the later saab 900 centre inlet will work better







the big air to air unit will become a chargecooler with water going in underneath and pumped through the core ,will need another pump to help shift the water to the pump at the front .

Hello,
What is the width of the 4 links on the dion axle? I'm almost certainly going to use the Saab turbo engine and gearbox now and I need to know if I have enough room to get it in comfortably, I'm also considering reducing the track on my car as it's very wide

Cheers
David

end to end from crank pulley to end of gearbox is 35" my links are 42" apart centerline and 23" long

Thanks very much, I've got loads of room, 47" to the centres, so if I reduce the track by 2" per side I will have 43" to the centreline plenty of room for the 35" wide engine/gearbox, just got to make sure I can reduce the track on the front without problems to match, otherwise it will have to stay comically wide

Cheers
David

if you havent bought a motor yet the 9-3 9/5 boxes have slightly stronger cases than the saab 9000 and are dirt cheap ,if i hadnt got so many spares i would re work the mount and use the later box as ive had several trashed boxes running 500hp hopefully the 700kg weight reduction will cure it

one more pipe and its build up time again

second chargecooler pump under manifold

discharge pipe 3" down to 2.5"

separate vac points for each pipe rather than tees

quick painting session and touch wood running properly this time

back up and running again today ,seems ok so far and the charger is making 0.6 bar so pretty much what i thought it would . response seems a bit woolier than before and the revs do hang a little but my mate who helpswith the mapping has a plan to sort that in the map for the idle valve .

a couple of electrical issue to resolve though , the fuel pump keeps dropping out so i need to change the relay as it also powers the lambda sensor ,not sure if thats how it is on the 9k so may have to put the o2 supply on its own relay if its struggling as i have two fuel pumps to power .

un out of mechanical stuff to do so time to tackle the body .cant believe how heavy the front arches were but doing it right this time taking a mould off the front end and making glass panels this time rather than mountains of mesh,spray foam and cag

the kit is for a mk1 fiesta and just about right for the 15" wheels ,there wont be much left of them once im happy with the lines blending into the spoiler at the front and the sill behind the front wheel




the proportions once the rear tub is back on means i can pinch a few details from my favourite group b cars

a bit of s1 at the front as i dont have much overhang to make the box arches like the shortie quattro

quite enjoyable sticking it together today , the current mess is just to bond the arches and form a surface for the marathon cag session next .
the big gap will have the same detail as the main grill just need to cut the section out of a scrap shell tomorrow

its a major job to get this rear tub to line up properly as there were several different moulds for different models so the van and saloon were not designed to go together .
i think the body need 4 " removing from the length and the bumper bar extending out by 2 " to break up large rear end .this will also mean that the bottom of the rear arch will blend into the back edge of the rear valance . my plan is to stretch the body a bit like putting a straw up a frogs arse to meet up with the new bits so it doesnt look like its had lumps of plastic thrown at it .

check out the bio degradable spoiler

got the rear tub stretched to roughly the right shape and have left it for a few days with the heat on in the garage and it does line up a little better so il have another go at fitting it next week.

slow progress on the front end but its getting better and the more work i do now the less needs doing once the moulded part is made .did a few other little jobs in between to keep sane

bit of carbon bling at the back and a heat shield to protect the chargecooler





looks no different than it did on monday but its got to be right before taking a mould off it



[Edited on 11/2/12 by froggy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Neville Jones
You said you are using the supercharger to blow into the turbo.

Normal practice is to do it the other way, with a simple mechanical diverter to bypass the super when the turbo exceeds the blower pressure.

This system has been in use on Detroit diesels since the second war or more. I've seen your system tried on race boat engines, and it can have problems with the seals on the turbo. When reverted to the reverse, no problems.

Unless you're going to run the engine like this hard for extended periods, then you'll probably be OK. Hope so.

Cheers,
Nev.

---

ended up cutting a lot more out of the tub to get the overhang right once the rear bumper bar is extended


[Edited on 12/2/12 by froggy]

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imp paul - 12/2/12 at 12:58 PM

looks cool mate i do like this post keep up the good work awesome

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froggy - 16/2/12 at 09:26 PM

first off i have to say ive pinched this idea from someone else but its a corker of an idea

ive got a water injection kit on the shelf as ive got a nagging doubt about being able to keep charge temps under control when pushing the supercharger hard but ive always thought that putting something into the cylinder that isnt fuel has to be at the expense of something else so what can you do ??

as we dont have the option of e85 here its the octane that ultimately limits how far you can go and even thinners doesnt work out any cheaper than fuel ,when you only need the extra octane in full boost mode how about being able to add octane only when you need it ?

ive used nitrous with good results at high boost levels but its still expensive even though i only use nos when i need to .


my cunning plan is to run another fuel rail with my spare 870cc injectors and use another t5 ecu looped into the original so that it sees all the same signals but with the features like enrichment ,knock etc turned off or the cells zeroed so that it just sees no values in the cells it looks up until i need to start adding methanol .

using middle of the road super unleaded and mapping just to the edge of knock the "slave" ecu can add fuel which it turn means you can go to the main ecu map and start pushing the timing and so on to reach the desired power but with the protection of 110 octane adding however much meth is needed to achieve it. the downside is you need to inject a larger volume of meth to achieve the same calorific value as petrol but it means more heat removed from the charge .

if i needed to spend a bit of cash to try this it would be a different matter but i have the walbro from my old 9k and the injectors ,loom and ecu so other than a small stainless tank and some fab work its a goer ,plus the fact that buying meth from a suppier using your own container is 50p per litre !!

---

unijacko67 - 6/3/12 at 10:39 PM

Looks like a lot of fun, is it the done thing to squirt methanol in with petrol?

I put some methanol in my two stroke motorbike petrol tank with petrol and didnt expect what happened next, it tried to rev itself to destruction, about 28 years ago so cant remember what ratio I mixed it, but petrol would have been 4 star. After turning off the ignition and it still running I pulled ht lead off and it was still screaming, seemed to take ages to stop it, but prob only 10 seconds or so, I had to stall it to stop it. It must have been dieseling or combusting under compression or something, but didnt try that again. I think my brother used to run compression up around 14:1 on his grasstrack bike which ran on methanol.

[Edited on 7/3/12 by unijacko67]

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froggy - 7/3/12 at 09:30 PM

thank god its done im sure a fly landed in the first coat but its had 3 litres and its now submerged :lol: cant touch it now for a week then a quick flat and polish .



not a bad finish from the gun , i can nearly see myself

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Irony - 7/3/12 at 10:07 PM

hats off to you mate - awesome

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froggy - 11/3/12 at 01:12 PM

i keep coming back to the idea of keeping it as a van and have brought the tub back home to mock up .the advantage of the van is it keeps it a little more hidden and means i can run the car without getting the engine bay soaked if it rains .




the other thing going for it is the rear overhang which athough the same length as the saloon the vertical rear end means i could build some quattro/s1/6r4 style arches .

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Doug68 - 12/3/12 at 07:21 AM

You have to keep the sign writing!

How'd you not paint everything else in the shed blue also?

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froggy - 12/3/12 at 08:35 AM

I did and have been de -smurfing the place since I finished . Ordered a big roll of plastic mask so I can create a mini booth for the next paint job . Main thing I've learnt is to bag the car underneath as the dust has found its way into the engine bay but it comes off with a wet cloth

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froggy - 12/3/12 at 06:42 PM

couldnt help screwing some bits on

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froggy - 16/3/12 at 10:19 PM

Suddenly dawned on me why I keep going back to the van body .



Funnily enough reliant did make a supervan 3 but only put three wheels on it

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Lebowski - 21/3/12 at 01:25 AM

That is just awesome

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Lebowski - 21/3/12 at 01:27 AM

That is just awesome

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dhutch - 23/3/12 at 05:30 PM

*like*

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froggy - 4/5/12 at 08:00 PM

got the car up and running a few weeks back with the new layout having the throttle upstream of the supercharger and as expected the surge issue has gone but been replaced by awful throttle repsonse and running on a little as you lift making gearchanges difficult

started out with a 9lb spring in the turbo but was hitting 2 bar at 3500rpm shortly followed by the o/s cv joint exploding so back to the cave for a re think


didnt take long to work out the driveshaft issue . i have a mixture of lobro inner joint and tripode outer joint so the spring pressure that is normally there when you run tripode inner and outer joints wasnt there as the lobro doesnt have any spring tension to keep the shaft in position . i ran these shafts with the twin bke engines with no issues but only 160lb/ft so shoving some more torque allowed the shaft to come out of the tripode enough to burst the cup open

digging around the garage found a pair of 4x4 sierra hubs so cut and re sleeved the shafts

the throttle issue was a bit more puzzling as so little info exists about compound charged cars but i came across an mx5 site in the us that showed a twin throttle system that seemed to make sense so i chopped up the inlet and started again using a pair of 74mm saab 9-3 throttle bodies
so it now has two throttles and any surge is dealt with by two dump valves . the first valve deals with air between the turbo and supercharger throttle and the second dump valve dumps any surge pressure from the supercharger to manifold throttle plus it allows any pressure or heat rise when running in vac with the supercharger byass open to get out plus it allows air in at idle when both throttles are shut .

it works perfectly well now and to prove a point if you hold the s/c throttle open and drive it the violent dump noise and a touch of belt slip can be heard just like it was before .as you crank the car to start with both throttles shut the seal is good enough to suck the silicone elbow by the manifold flat so a touch of throttle is needed to start and build a bit of vac to pull the dump valves open .

with a 7psi spring in the turbo now and a very smooth boost request map in it drives well although im still bottling it at 4500rpm .

the other issue was the water temp which although not particularly high didnt seem to flow very well at idle so i picked up an electric pump and controller and put it by the radiator and fitted the temp probe into the head to get a true temp reading before the thermostat

the rad comes up to temp and stays hot at idle now so should have no more issues and temp seems pretty constant at 90c on the road . having the live data from the ecu shows that cyl head temp goes up to 105c after a boost run but comes back to 90ish within a couple of seconds .

---

MakeEverything - 4/5/12 at 08:38 PM

Where's the video then? . Looks awesome. I did say about the surge and the dump valve tho.

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froggy - 4/5/12 at 08:59 PM

did you ?? where ??

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froggy - 5/5/12 at 04:20 PM

bit of headway today ,got the car pc issues sorted and got the symbols (cheers phil) to calibrate the speedo on t5 . had an issue with vac hoses blowing off but easy fix and finally got to push the car up to 6k in third gear .the boost request map is very linear and it hits 1.7 bar at around 3500rpm holding rock solid all the way up with ait peaking at 41c . the supercharger does get very hot so the water /meth spray needs to go on to get the best out of the chargecooler .

its still odd not having any sort of torque rise like im used to with the big turbo,s but pulling uphill in third at 2k it pulls every bit as well as it does on the flat. ive had passengers in to keep an eye on the turbo boost and what happens is once it hits peak boost at around 3500rpm the turbo seems to climb slightly as revs rise to maintain boost and power seems to keep rising with revs .
with boost now under control with the right spring and preload ive been able to keep my foot hard down from 2-6k without breaking traction but the springs are way too soft at the back .

---

froggy - 6/5/12 at 01:58 PM

http://youtu.be/KzxKP2E2Nrg

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fha772 - 6/5/12 at 03:50 PM

That's liking and sounding great froggy, will we see it at PPC in the Patk?

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froggy - 6/5/12 at 04:36 PM

Yep , done 100 miles today and nothing fell off so should make it to Mallory in one piece

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froggy - 10/5/12 at 09:07 PM

ok so my experiment wasnt entirely succesfull but it did prove that my intake volume was too large to get decent throttle response and a good idle ops: i took the discharge pipe off the blower and found a couple ot tiny scratches on the back of the rotors which definitely werent there before so there must have been a tiny amount of surge although i couldnt pick it up on the boost gauge rigged up to monitor boost between the throttles .

so following the rules its going the proper route but with the chargecooler built into the inlet manifold


air filter -turbo -bypass valve -throttle body


supercharger bypass goes up into bottom of plenum



supercharger discharge into chargecooler/inlet manifold. the cooler will be sunk into the manifold by a couple of inches and the open end capped off to match the other side but its a shorter path and should work well (where have i heard that before :lol: )

lowered the car a couple of inches have re worked the shock mounts and done some work on the front end to run more caster as the steering doesnt self center very well.

---

froggy - 12/5/12 at 08:49 PM

Ready for final welding tomorrow and see if it can idle normally

Got to add a couple of holes for the idle valve and a few vac points on the manifold but its gone together pretty easy and for a change the eBay aluminium wasn't covered in that evil stuff that makes it a nightmare to weld to


I did look at the pwr barrel coolers but the one I need is £750 compared to the £74.99 eBay jobbie .

---

froggy - 27/5/12 at 07:29 PM

Major re thinks after Mallory the main one is the supercharger is now off the car and it's back to pure turbo for the time being

It was in the back of my mind that the holset might be too big to work with the charger . We were hitting 2bar manifold with the holset at 12psi but the fuel map was based on fuel flow to support 500hp and the estimator in the tuning software was showing around 450 hp but afr was mega rich going into the low 10s so pressure v flow is a long way apart and it really needs to run the later t7 trionic management which is maf based . Looks like I need to go with a gt3076r bb unit so the compound is on the shelf while I concentrate on the running gear for a while .

The other issue was the panhard rod flexing under boost and with the beam stripped out it was running a lot of toe in and positive camber on the o/s so spent a day getting it spot on and beefing up the centre to take a pair of triangulated link rods to make it a 6 linked set up

The front hubs which clocked up perfectly turned out to get well out of shape once the wheel was bolted on causing horrendous wheel wobble have gone in the bin with some nice chunky aluminium ones in progress .

Good things are the charge oolong system works well and temps were perfect although I didn't get much track time due to the brake issues . Spring rates are ok at the front but 450lb rears are going on the back and the car will come down another inch once I have massaged the front inner arches to make room for more bump .


To make use of the water meth system the map for the holset is a lot more agressive on the timing side as we have a lot more headroom with the 750cc injectors and the spray to cover any midrange knock from the extra advance . Have to say Im looking forward to the monster boost as we were probably only making around 300hp at Mallory based on what the holset flows at 12psi.

Next on the list is power steering which Isn't an issue at speed but for general hooning about will make catching the slide a lot easier and allow me to run more caster to get some self centering back

The corsa b column seems to be the easiest choice as the rpm and road speed signals are compatible with the Saab so it will be speed sensitive and torque sensing for some quick sideways action .

---

froggy - 30/6/12 at 04:54 PM

[quote="froggy"]lots of mods this month , to start with the old hx35 is gone and made a good sum on the bay so the new hx35 hybrid cost £80 plus shipping . to get the best from it the manifold is being converted to split pulde including keepint the sides divided right up to the ext gate valve . after some mocking up im going up to a 44mm gate which has v band fittings and some adjustment for preload to help tuning .

the nissan manifold would be a mare to vut up completely so its being modified keyhole surgery style and the long runner that comes in at 90deg to the collecter has had a tweak to turn the tube ino the collector at a better angle





the corsa b power column is done and makes the car a lot easier to drive especially at low speed .the speed sensitivity works as it should and the weighting can be altered by adjusting caster on the top wishbone til i get some decent self centering but it feels pretty good as it is .
the floating felling from the rear is pretty well resolved now after tieing the lower chassis rails together underneath the car to stop the panhard rod mount from moving but it need a horizontal link on the n/s to triangulate the chassis properly . lifting the front trailing arm mounts up by 50mm has made a differnce to turn in as the back end starts to come round on the brakes rather than load the front into understeer .

the rear mudgaurds dont fit after adding the 20mm wheel spacers so no option but to fit the rear body so its back to cag and spray foam for a while



after smurfing everything i own last time ive got a roll of mask sheet to make a bit of a booth this time .

---

---

froggy - 3/7/12 at 06:28 PM

made some headway on the body ,



getting a bit heavy to lift but i can still get it off on my own

the manifold is coming along nicely

the divider will carry on down the wastegate pipe right up to the valve to stop any flow mixing .

this runner came in at 90deg but now turns in a bit better

internal finish was pretty poor but it was a cheap ebay job

divider in place

---

sebastiaan - 3/7/12 at 06:36 PM

I absolutely LOVE this car and the amount of work that has gone into it. Keep it up!

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imp paul - 3/7/12 at 07:39 PM

i also love it puts a daft smile on my face lol

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froggy - 8/7/12 at 01:41 PM

must be getting better at prep as it only took 1.5 litres of colour to get some shine this time

---

imp paul - 8/7/12 at 04:48 PM

yaaaaaaaaayyyyyy well done mate love it lots its getting there its going to be mental its the way to be haha

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froggy - 27/7/12 at 07:08 PM

back on the road and first impressions of the turbone are pretty good , spool starts at 3300rpm and im on base boost of 1 bar at 4000rpm .as usual there are a couple of things i want to change namely the box for a 4.05 diff now i dont have the supercharger,s help . that brings the top speed down to the 140mph mark but will make a big difference to response and keeping it on boost changing gear .

---

froggy - 23/8/12 at 10:18 PM

someone sent me a link to this vid at bedford last saturday ,skip to 10.30-14.00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2yyJBmV7cI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

and this one 4.30-5.30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2yyJBmV7cI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

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Minicooper - 24/8/12 at 11:47 AM

Froggy,
What wheelbase did you end up with? I'm looking into stretching the wheelbase on my mini to help with the mid engined handling, I have a six link dedion on the rear and double wishbone on the front, at the moment my wheelbase is about 85". I have an 4" extended front on and have moved the front wheels 3" further forward, I have also moved the rear wheels about 2"back, but I'm looking into the possibility of angling the complete rear panel and adding a further 1.5~2" to the wheelbase, as long as it looks right I will probably do that

How is your car handling? it looks from the videos to be very stable

Cheers
David

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froggy - 24/8/12 at 12:07 PM

90" wheelbase 56" track . At present I'm running a front anti roll bar and fairly soft springs at the front . We were hitting over 140 on the straights and it felt very solid but I'm running a lot of caster and epas power steering with a bit of toe in . I think if I get the body roll sorted on the spring rate it would be more like the lotus and vx cars with awesome cornering right up to the point where they let go . Didn't spin once with the slow in fast out approach just need to dial in more rear roll stiffness to carry more corner speed . The de dion set up feels fine with no squirming under power but I was running open diff . Biggest change for me was going to epas post column so u can run 12deg caster and get proper self centering coming out of the tighter bends so I can hang the arse out and let the lock off by loosening the grip on the wheel rather than manually correcting it .

---

froggy - 15/12/12 at 08:53 PM

Been a while but the car is starting to come together again . I've always used bone stock engines and suffered a few failures pushing 500+ hp so time had come to build a stronger motor so gone all out with the 234

Lightened flywheel
0.5 rebore with wossner pistons
Pec rods 200g lighter than stock
Balance shaft delete
B202 cams
Ported and re faced head
Baffled sump with 1 litre side wing and trap door
4.05 box with quaife atb
Manifolds port matched to head
Turbosmart 45mm ext gate with 1bar spring .
Genuine Saab arp head stud kit
Pwr 6x5 barrel chargecooler









On the handling side I looked at various ways of changing the rear end to a trailing arm design but I decided to give the de dion another shot with a different way of locating the axle . I found an A frame design used by Dax on their de dion cobra and copied that but with the frame under the axle . This means I could cut the bottom half of the chassis off but the gearbox mount had to re made to hang off the upper part of the chassis .


A vauxhall rose bush at the front to allow the frame to pivot and the outer links are mondeo front wishbone bushes to flex a bit . The other mod is a rear roll bar from my old 9k which just happens to be a good shape to fit so will get used again .

The weight saved with all the butchery and the smaller charge cooler is 45kg so worth the effort .
The water meth kit is coming off as its going to be much more useful on the hot rod having a 10-1 comp ratio and turbos and the kit has taken another 25 kg off the car so it should be under 850kg wet .

Power wise I think 480 is a nice number but we shall pull all the stops out on the dyno to see how much this holset can pump out .

[Edited on 15/12/12 by froggy]

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mark chandler - 15/12/12 at 11:33 PM

Vauxhall rose bush, that's a lot of trust.

Would something more commercial like the ball joint on the A frame of a classic range rover not be better? You could cut the taper out of a scrap axle and let into your frame.

Fantastic car, wish I had your skill

[Edited on 15/12/12 by mark chandler]

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CNHSS1 - 16/12/12 at 11:03 AM

totam madness, love it!
where did you buy the PWR chargecooler, this country or US?

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MikeRJ - 16/12/12 at 12:34 PM

Are you going to remove the lower trailing arms? I think you may get some binding if you leave them with the A frame attached.

The original Lotus 7 had the same A frame design for rear axle location (with upper trailing arms).

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froggy - 16/12/12 at 12:57 PM

This is my last try with the de dion and i can't feel any bind issues with the lower arms in place . Martin at Mk engineering has some ideas for a new rear end set up for next year so it isn't a great loss if this doesn't work . I'm hoping to come down on the spring rate once the anti roll bar is on and remove the front bar altogether .

The pwr cooler was bought here , the size isn't a popular one so got it at a fair price compared to shipping one from the us .

---

Minicooper - 16/12/12 at 05:25 PM

quote:

---

Originally posted by froggy
This is my last try with the de dion and i can't feel any bind issues with the lower arms in place . Martin at Mk engineering has some ideas for a new rear end set up for next year so it isn't a great loss if this doesn't work . I'm hoping to come down on the spring rate once the anti roll bar is on and remove the front bar altogether .

The pwr cooler was bought here , the size isn't a popular one so got it at a fair price compared to shipping one from the us .

---

What's the problem with the de dion? I'm not changing mine now but I'm very interested in your particular problem/s

Cheers
David

---

froggy - 16/12/12 at 07:10 PM

Nothing wrong other than my frame design meant it needed a load of extra frame work to provide a solid location for the panhard rod . I had it pretty rigid but it made it hard to get the engine /box out . The a frame means the lot will come out underneath in one lump .



[Edited on 17/12/12 by froggy]

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froggy - 3/1/13 at 09:40 PM

Ring gapping tonight with a homemade though not by me tool to get a perfect match

The bore size is spot on but the top ring had only a 9 thou gap which should be 20thou so quite a bit needs taking off . I'm going a thou over the spec going on gaps for other big boost engines just to be on the safe side .

Moved the pc from behind the passenger seat as it killed two hard drives and picked up a solid state drive so it should be sorted , never had any issue with the car pc in the 9000 but it was well cushioned and the drive lay flat rather than upright which probably didn't help .


Interior out as well to make the insulation quilt for the bulkhead and get some sort of flooring in to make it a bit more civilised inside

---

froggy - 8/1/13 at 11:27 PM

Best get a pic of this touch wood I won't see this for a long time .

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T66 - 9/1/13 at 06:10 AM

quote:

---

Originally posted by froggy
Ring gapping tonight with a homemade though not by me tool to get a perfect match

The bore size is spot on but the top ring had only a 9 thou gap which should be 20thou so quite a bit needs taking off . I'm going a thou over the spec going on gaps for other big boost engines just to be on the safe side .

Moved the pc from behind the passenger seat as it killed two hard drives and picked up a solid state drive so it should be sorted , never had any issue with the car pc in the 9000 but it was well cushioned and the drive lay flat rather than upright which probably didn't help .


Interior out as well to make the insulation quilt for the bulkhead and get some sort of flooring in to make it a bit more civilised inside

---

Like your work Froggy, Its looking good.





Amuses me when we sometimes use the word "civilised" when describing our cars....

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froggy - 9/1/13 at 08:29 AM

It's getting better , I don't need the intercom any more and once the cabin is soundproofed I might even get the wife to come for a spin

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Norfolkluegojnr - 9/1/13 at 09:12 AM

quote:

---

Originally posted by froggy

Best get a pic of this touch wood I won't see this for a long time .

---

WOW!

That's a clean head. Don't think anything in my car looked that good from the factory......

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D Beddows - 9/1/13 at 12:39 PM

If this isn't about THE best car on here then I don't know what is tbh Totally ridiculous on many levels but absolutely brilliantly done!

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froggy - 9/1/13 at 01:41 PM

Bit more weight loss , should be just under 20kg compared to the old compomotive rally wheels


Lots of Internet discussion regarding what lubricant and torque settings to use in these arp studs but il stick with the sellers advise as he,s built engines running a lot more power than I'm making

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surrey_100e - 10/1/13 at 05:53 PM

just read all the pages, keep up the good work!

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Saabocus - 14/1/13 at 12:51 PM

This is a great bit of work and a fantastic post, also the inspiration to become part of this community, thanks for sharing and taking the time to post all your work.

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froggy - 14/1/13 at 05:19 PM

These engines are going into all kinds of motors now . I'm doing stuff for a mk2 escort , fc3 rx7 and an rx8 at the moment .

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Minicooper - 15/1/13 at 02:50 PM

Froggy,
Quick question for you, how wide is the saab engine/gearbox combination, the 2 litre saab engine and if it makes any difference the 2.3 motor your now using. The distance from the engine pully to the gearbox end, you don't need to include engine mounts and the like as long as they are removable.

The more I look at the overall cost of fitting a turbo bike engine with the chain drive and some sort of reverse the more I like the look of the saab turbo motor and it's potential for tuning. For the price of the chain diff and reverse I could easily get a whole saab turbo and superchip it, makes it a no brainer really.

Do you know if any of the saab turbos came with a lsd? and also the approx overall weight of the complete saab engine/gearbox/ancillaries unit

That's more than one quick question I know

Cheers
David

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froggy - 15/1/13 at 06:34 PM

End to end is 910mm and the gearbox mount is at the bottom of the gearbox as it had two lower mounts on the block and an upper torque steady on the pulley end . I use the top mount to hang the motor and the lower mount on the turbo side with no issues . 2.0 and 2.3 are physically the same but the 2.3 has the 240mm clutch which is necessary when going towards 300hp . The 2.3 is limited to 7000rpm when pushed but the 2.0 is happier when revving hard .

I'm getting used to mine now and I always knew that having a high cog and fairly small footprint it was never going to be a super nimble car but it holds its own in a straight line against pretty much anything I've come up against bar a 7 litre ultima .

Bang for buck I would buy a 95- 9000 aero so you have the complete donor that is set up to make 280hp with a couple of tweaks like a 3" downpipe and 3 bar map sensor . The downside is that it comes with a 3.6 diff and hilarious gearing . I had a quaife diff in a 3.6 box and running a big turbo I was dropping out of boost a little unless I revved it really hard however that was coupled to a 2.0 engine .

Weight wise I'm not sure but I would say its 350 kg


I suppose its what you want to use it for , for track days a bike engine would no doubt be a more nimble choice but all that chain guff gets old fast and the number of bike engined minis sold with a couple of thousand miles on them speaks volumes to me .


Tuning wise there are lots of options , using stock hardware there are good stage maps that you can do yourself with a £40 USB/bdm tool and the free t5 suite software on the Trionic tuning forum or ecu project .

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froggy - 9/2/13 at 06:15 PM

It's ready to go back in at last !!
Had a few issues getting the pistons back in but a decent compressor sorted it . Pulling the head down with the stud kit was a lot harder than using stretch bolts so there is a fair improvement in head clamping over the stretch bolts . Got some more bits to do once its in mainly re plumbing the new chargecooler and a couple of wiring mods to the boost switch then run in and dyno

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Minicooper - 16/3/13 at 01:16 PM

Hello Froggy,
I'm sorry to bother you again, I've have set the rear wheels where they look right and also look right compared too the front of the mini, this gives me a measurement of 54" from one face of the brake disc to the other on the de dion.

How does 54" compare to the width of your de dion? I don't really want to go much wider but the driveshafts need to be a sensible length

Cheers
David

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froggy - 16/3/13 at 01:38 PM

Mines 54.5 give or take a few mm

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froggy - 15/11/13 at 06:16 PM

Been a while again but made some more changes to help get it to go round corners a bit better . Bought some better 2.25"
Coilovers and gone up to 600 lb springs on the rear from 450lb. Made a big difference but could go stiffer for track days . The escort rack is pretty much identical to the kitten apart from the n/s mount bracket that needs moving by a couple of inches . Coupled to the epas column it doesn't need more than 1/2 turn to catch a slide .
Rear brakes are now vented and decent pads with race fluid has cured the brake fade although the engine is still running in on base boost of 1 bar or around 300hp

Rides a lot better on the lighter wheels which are half the weight of the old compomotives .

Splashed out on a pwr cooler which has taken 5ft out of the inlet with a centre inlet 3" throttle body .
Above 3500 rpm boost is very responsive and seems to do its Job pretty well after a day at oulton last Saturday .

Had a drive down to shakespeare raceway a few weeks back and ran 11.9 121mph on low boost which was a nice surprise especially as it was my first run on cold Michelin pilots


Next big change is the rear suspension which I've never been happy with since fitting the Saab engine , its one job I'm happy to give someone else so it's going up to Martin Keenan at Mk engineering in a couple of weeks for a full independant set up shamelessly copying the kimini which I've pinched lots of ideas from along the way .

Having the fuel tank up front doesn't seem to cause any issues so its going to get a bit bigger to extend the range as I had to fill up twice at oulton .

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unijacko67 - 15/11/13 at 07:28 PM

How did you get on at Oulton, Mine swaps ends so quick in the wet its taking a bit of getting used to. It's made me a bit over cautious in the wet. The short wheelbase probably doesn't help. I only spun once though, just coming out of the first chicane as I tried to get on the power a tad to early for the up hill drag. Cheers.

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froggy - 15/11/13 at 08:48 PM

Have to say mine is pretty good in the wet with 3/4 full fuel tank .

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unijacko67 - 15/11/13 at 09:12 PM

It's more than likely just me taking time to get used to it and knowing how to have it set, tyre pressure, tyres, dampers ect, but when it has swapped ends on the track its all happened pretty dam quick. Not even at speed, but probably under acceleration. Softly softly needed on the throttle I reckon.

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froggy - 15/11/13 at 09:29 PM

I think we have the same track width but mine is 5" longer wheelbase . If I had less weight up front mine would be the same judging by how the Elise's were coping in the wet . As long as I'm in the right gear coming out of a corner there is enough power and revs to hold any slide until I'm straight enough to change up .

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unijacko67 - 15/11/13 at 10:10 PM

I will get it sorted. I've put a lightened flywheel on it which does make it a bit snappy and dont think that will be helping in the lower gears with the rear end traction and power delivery. Next time I have the box out I'll try the standard flywheel, it could just make all the differance along with a hundred other tweeks. The most likely cause is the fart behind the wheel, I've not done owt for years and have had a bit of a shock at how bad I seem to be, lol. Can you make ppc Blyton in March. Cheers

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froggy - 15/11/13 at 10:15 PM

Booked it ,

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unijacko67 - 15/11/13 at 10:24 PM

Great, looking forward to seeing your motor in action, looks awesome. Cheers.

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froggy - 19/12/13 at 01:34 PM

Big changes at the back of the car , not a job I wanted to make any guesses with so sent it up to Martin at Mk engineering for a new independant set up .




The lower frame bolts on to let the drivetrain come out from underneath .


Fully rose jointed so everything is adjustable including toe link height at the inner pickup although first check shoes a tiny amount of toe in under bump and droop after dialling out most of the negative camber at ride height



No doubt some setting up required but not having the rear end floating round underneath me will be a big improvement .

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froggy - 20/12/13 at 07:30 PM

Decided to weigh the car in the brake rollers , last year is was 910kg with me (88kg ) and a bit of fuel in . Now down to 885kg so lost 25kg . 380kg front 505kg rear .

Didn't sound like much til I found a 56lb weight in the garage .

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