Just another one of those questions that bounces around in my head from time to time..
You hear some car manufacturors talking about mounting the engine up front and the gearbox in the boot to give perfect weight distribution etc....
Presumably this means that you have to have a stonking great propshaft spinning at engine speed linking the engine to the gearbox...
Now my crazy question is this: Could it be done safely and cost effectivley in a kit car?
Something like the VAG 2.6 V6 and a transaxle?
it could be done but the clutch would be a pain to sort out.
adam
You can always supercharge the 2.5 Porsche engine (relatively) easily. And it lives in the 944 in the same configuration that you already want -
Engine front and Gearbox rear!
Steve
quote:
Originally posted by worX
You can always supercharge the 2.5 Porsche engine (relatively) easily. And it lives in the 944 in the same configuration that you already want - Engine front and Gearbox rear!
Steve
had same arangment
quote:
Originally posted by tegwin
Presumably this means that you have to have a stonking great propshaft spinning at engine speed linking the engine to the gearbox...
Volvo 300 series (340, 360) also has the same arrangement (also had a de-dion axle).
volvo 340 with de dion (heavy) , arse sits right on the gearbox , needs a wider chassis , beleive me i tried this .
you could try adapting a transaxle gearbox by taking the bellhousing off , which is what i was going to do - why go to all that bother , make it mid
engined !!!
I believe Porsche 944 did that, along with Chevy Corvettes.
Alfa 75 and Z1 has the gearbox in the back as well
You will find a build using an Alfa transaxle on the ESTfield website. They do state quite clearly that it was necessary to raise the seating position
to accomodate the bellhousing.
That's a killer for me - in a seven, the seat must be as low as possible or you've completely compromised the whole car.
(That said, I am err 'big boned', so ignore the bit above.)
ferrari 275 also .
alfa had also the diskbrakes bolted on to the gear-box to reduce the unsprung weight.
volvo 340 did it with the gear-box in the rear. but mostly there was a cvt in it.
Aston Martin DB9? Nice big V12
The new GTR Wouldn't a Quaife diff be best? I thought I say one converted into a single seater. It's a diff, but it also has gears in it
etc. Zcars also had one made by a different manufacturer for the Elise Hayabusa conversion. Diff with reverse and gears.
quote:
Originally posted by tegwinPresumably this means that you have to have a stonking great propshaft spinning at engine speed linking the engine to the gearbox...
Now my crazy question is this: Could it be done safely and cost effectivley in a kit car?
The propshaft (torque tube) could be considerably smaller than a normal one as you are only transmitting the engine torque. In a conventional setup you are transmitting (maximum) the engine torque multiplied by whatever the first gear ratio is. Probably about four times the engine torque.
quote:
Originally posted by oadamo
it could be done but the clutch would be a pain to sort out.
adam
shaft is then called "torque tube" for some reason, but loads of cars have that.
want something interesting look at the layout of a lambo 4wd (not the hidious offroad)
grtz thomas
quote:
Originally posted by thomas4age
shaft is then called "torque tube" for some reason, but loads of cars have that.
want something interesting look at the layout of a lambo 4wd (not the hidious offroad)
grtz thomas
Lambo mid engined.
the engine is mounted in the car in reverse position, clutch facing forward, then a more or less normal 4wd gearbox is attached to the engine with the
case and tailhousing in a normal transmissiontunnel,
theres a narrow build transfercase on the rear of the box from where there goes a prop to the front diff, and a prop through the side of the engine
and a part of the sump through the back axle behind the engine, another diff there provides drive to the rear wheels.
The newe lambos use a box with a centered transfercase, the front prop is on the same place as say a T9 has the shaft, but the rear axle has it's
transfer case almost right behind the flywheel this way you can build a smaller tunnel and have more interiour space.
here you can see the torque tube going to the front and on the left side of the bellhousing a protusion sits for the prop to the rear dif, the engine
lies inbetween this box and the rear diff.
lamborghini 4x4 gearbox
it's a real clever system and could be copied for midengine kits using very strong transmissions for little money compared to a G50 or such that
you would use in a normal mid engine layout. and is exactly why I asked the dimensions of an MT75 4wd cossie or a T5 box.....
grtz Thomas
[Edited on 2/1/08 by thomas4age]
Hmm.... Ive just finished an Ultima GTR and have been looking at various layouts for my next project. I'm quite taken with the Audi V8 -
there's a few tasty Ultimas with this engine/trans.
Here's a few pics of various layouts.
Note that if the Audi package were put in a rear engine car, the engine would be hanging out the rear (like the Porsche)
For this reason the Nissan config may work better for a Mid engined 4WD.
The lambo layout would mean seating near the front of the car - or a wide car with seats either side of the trans. I am also yet to find a trans
similar to the Lambo that is not a Lambo box.
Not sure if the Nissan dif can be inverted, but the weight distribution is good if used front box - rear engine
Nissan GTR (front engine 4WD)
Audi (front engine 4WD)
Lambo (rear engine 4WD)
Porsche (rear engine 4WD)
Bugatti (rear engine 4WD)
[Edited on 3/1/08 by crafty]
Oh... there's also the option of rear engine + normal gearbox (facing forward) with a transfer case and front/rear diffs...
This leaves options wide open for engine/gearbox and difs, and allows you to put the engine wherever you like.... but will have a weight penalty and
affects seating position.
quote:
Originally posted by crafty
Note that if the Audi package were put in a rear engine car, the engine would be hanging out the rear (like the Porsche)
Sorry.... I wasnt very clear - I am on the hunt for 4WD.
Mid AND 4wd wont work (neatly) with the Audi drivetrain
... if its mid (engine behind seats) with trans at the rear it will obviously work as 2WD (same setup as my Ultima) but it can't be 4WD unless
you have a transfer case on the rear and a prop shaft going forwards - which would be a bit silly.
If one were to simply use the Audi drivetrain in reverse, it could be done by flipping the trans (as per the G50 in my Ultima).... but you'd have
the engine hanging out the back like a Porsche.... which is not what I am after.
I'm looking at 2 scenarios:
OPTION 1
Engine behind seats
Transaxle at front (like the Nissan)
Propshaft running back again to diff (behind engine)
To do this the Nissan trans would have to be flipped.
OPTION 2
Layout as per Nissan... but engine moved back.
Hiya Crafty fancy meeting you here!!!
there are some interesting ideas for 4wd midi's on the Lambo forums but I think these solutions are a little heavy for us..... I considered 4wd
for mine but given the complexity and weight I thought it wasn't worth considering trying to engineer a solution.
Are you planning to supercharge your Audi... if not you probably wont need 4wd if you get the suspension designed right...... I can put you in contact
with the guy that did mine, I also introduced him to Clive, Wayne etc etc so you may know his work.... He's currently doing an Audi install into
an Ultima for a quite guy on PH.
I'll be interested in any solutions you do come up with though, especially if they can take big power.
[Edited on 3/1/08 by andygtt]
Hey Andy,
Obviously I have friends in low places! Ive been lurking here for a while... I think I mentioned in my email to you that I was starting down the track
of a scratch build and was gathering ideas.
I've had some contact with Steve - yes, the stuff he is building is VERY nice!!!
The Audi will probably be TT.
I know I probably dont need 4WD - but this project is going to be about doing something different - and for the hell of it I may go 4WD.
Ive just picked up a copy of Solid Works... still sketching at the moment... and planning build space - may have that sorted - the Ultima may be
moving away from home for a while.
I know exactly what you mean about something different as thats exactly why I am doing mine.... there were so many other very very tempting
alternatives that would be way less work and look just as good, but they are replicas or modified versions of the same existing theme.... Not that I
am saying there is anything wrong with that, just that I HAD to have something different or Unique to call my own.
Do you think the 4wd is doable with the kind of outputs we are going for? I found it hard enough to get a 2wd box that was genuinelly strong enough.