andkilde
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| posted on 27/1/04 at 03:46 AM |
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Best Suspension Books?
Hello all.
Got a $50 US holiday bonus for Amazon burning a hole in my wallet (I know I'll need to spend more).
What is/are the best book(s) on suspension design currently available?
From trolling the internet I have a vague idea what roll centers, ackerman, scrub radii and all are (how to calculate, measure etc), but I
haven't a clue what they ought to be.
What I'd like to learn is what are the ideals we're shooting for when designing a suspension from scratch? How much suspension travel is
required for a street (occasional track day) car? How does king pin inclination differ from caster angle? Where should you try to position your roll
centers? Why? How much ackerman is enough? How do you achieve it?
And, finally, which things are safe/dangerous/necessary to compromise on?
There seems to be a concensus on Carrol Smith and Alan Staniforth, but which of their books are most comprehensive or comprehendible.
Thanks All, Ted
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Alan B
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| posted on 27/1/04 at 04:05 AM |
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I vote Staniforth..
"Competition car suspension" is a good one.
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kb58
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| posted on 27/1/04 at 03:39 PM |
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I second the Staniforth book. I list that one and a bunch of others on my site:
http://members.cox.net/kimini22/car/reference/index.html
[Edited on 27/1/04 by kb58]
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Alan B
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| posted on 27/1/04 at 04:07 PM |
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My view on Carrol Smith was that he was more of an expert racing car builder and set-up guy, rather than a suspension design guru (although very
knowledgeable).......fair comment? or not?
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kb58
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| posted on 27/1/04 at 04:56 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by andkilde
...What I'd like to learn is what are the ideals we're shooting for when designing a suspension from scratch? How much suspension travel
is required for a street (occasional track day) car?
There seems to be a concensus on Carrol Smith and Alan Staniforth, but which of their books are most comprehensive or comprehendible.
Thanks All, Ted
Designing suspension is a bit like designing a house. What kind of house do you want? It depends. How many rooms? How many do you want? In many
cases there is no one single *Right* answer. Lots of values will work, and some will work better then others for a given situation. Kind of like
cooking...
For example you ask how much suspension travel you need for the street. You can find the answer by asking more questions. What's the biggest
pothole you plan to every hit? How smooth are your roads. How stiff do you want the ride to be? How large are bumps in your local streets? How
much ground clearence you need will partially dictate the maximum suspension travel, else you risk bottoming. Want nice smooth ride for the street so
you don't lose teeth? Or rather stiff so your car does well at the track? If it's really soft, you'll need roughly 5-6" of
total wheel travel. If it's stiff, some amount less then that.
I'm just saying this so that after you read the books you're not disappointed by not being handed a perfect solution.
Smith's books are really good but keep in mind he's in the hardcore racing world, he doesn't deal with large suspension travels.
For a street car you'll have to mentally "loosen" his specs, understanding it'll then be harder to control camber and such....
I discuss some of these issues more in my Design link:
http://members.cox.net/kimini22/car/design/index.html
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andkilde
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| posted on 27/1/04 at 11:44 PM |
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Thanks guys
I'm not really looking for a canned solution, just the tools to develop my own personal solution (err, sounds a bit like psychobabble...)
That is, I currently know just about enough to be dangerous, I'd like to learn enough to make intelligent decisions.
Just for giggles, I'm looking to do a small two seat 1000cc bike engined middy, sort of a scaled up Formula SAE car but smaller than a Radical.
Bodywork will be McLaren M8 inspired (simplified a bit so I can cobble it together with ali sheet, rivets and VHB tape).
It'll be a weekend only car, mostly for fooling about on back lanes but maybe an occasional trackday -- along the lines of what someone in
England might build as a hillclimb car.
I'm thinking I'll need 4-5 inches of suspension travel, I'll probably design the chassis around the bits I have laying about (ie.
distance between front suspension pickup points = width of Mini steering rack).
I'm thinking that pushrod style suspension would (a) give technical benefits, easy ride height change, reduced unsprung weight AND (b) allow me
some flexibility in picking dampers as you can fudge suspension travel and damping force a bit by fiddling with the rocker ratio. Possibly 1/4 midget
or "Legends" car coilovers?
But, I'm groping about in the dark a bit about it all.
Cheers, Ted
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andkilde
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| posted on 28/1/04 at 12:42 PM |
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OK, ordered three books:
Alan Staniforth: Competiton Car Suspension: Design, Construction, Tuning
Fred Puhn: How to Make Your Car Handle
Carrol Smith: Engineer to Win: The Essential Guide to Racing Car Materials Technology or How to Build Winners Which Don't Break (3747Ap)
But delivery date is middle of March?!? I guess they're having to source the Staniforth book from England. The other two were recommended by
friends off forum.
I'll report back when they've arrived.
Thanks everyone, Ted
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Alan B
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| posted on 28/1/04 at 01:20 PM |
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Not sure if I have the Fred Puhn one, but the other two are excellent....Good choice IMO...
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Spyderman
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| posted on 28/1/04 at 04:31 PM |
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Alan Staniforth's books have to be considered as the basis for any learning on car suspension.
The Fred Puhn book is good, but a bit generalised, with a bias towards American Racing. Not really forthcoming with formulas and such that you can
experiment with.
I think an excellent overall grounding book to get you into understanding the different requirements of various motorsports would be Alan
Staniforth's "Race and Rally Car Sourcebook". Has to be the best overall book on my bookshelf!
Try making up his string computer to get a good feeling of variences in A-arm length and position.
How many other authers can give you the methods for working it out yourself that you can understand?
Terry
Spyderman
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kb58
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| posted on 28/1/04 at 06:49 PM |
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I have both of Staniforth's books. If you're going to buy just one, I vote for the "Competiton Car..." book as it has all the
stuff from the earlier work. JMO
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Spyderman
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| posted on 1/2/04 at 02:07 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by kb58
I have both of Staniforth's books. If you're going to buy just one, I vote for the "Competiton Car..." book as it has all the
stuff from the earlier work. JMO
As a technical journal I would agree, but for someone learning the ropes (so to speak) I think the R & R book gives a better grounding!
I suppose it all depends on your level of understanding.
Terry
Spyderman
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ned
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| posted on 3/2/04 at 10:54 AM |
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I am going to buy Staniforth's book, but can get free delivery if I spend over £25 at amazon. I wondered if anyone has read or has any comments
on:
"How to Build and Modify Sportscar and Kitcar Suspension and Brakes for Road and Track (Speedpro S.)
by Des Hammill "
cheers,
Ned.
beware, I've got yellow skin
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ned
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| posted on 6/2/04 at 09:59 AM |
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I've been reading through my two new purchases, as mentioned above. The Staniforth book seems ok, but to me seems to be quite heavy reading.
There is some good info in there, but its got loads of history and anecdotes which wasn't quite what i was after. the des hammil book however is
excellent, it has loads of easy to read diagrams and explanations, a lot of it is based on a 7 or middie type suspension and I have found it so far to
have most of the same useful (to me) info as the staniforth book. worth having a copy in my opinion, maybe not quite the depth of Staniforths book but
easier to get the ideas out of.
just my 2ps worth..
Ned.
beware, I've got yellow skin
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andkilde
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| posted on 29/3/04 at 04:32 AM |
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Hello All
Books arrived and I've been digesting for a few days.
quote:
Alan Staniforth: Competiton Car Suspension: Design, Construction, Tuning
Fred Puhn: How to Make Your Car Handle
Carrol Smith: Engineer to Win: The Essential Guide to Racing Car Materials Technology or How to Build Winners Which Don't Break (3747Ap)
For the moment I'll throw a few thoughts out.
Staniforth: A lot to take in, but combined with the bits and pieces I've gleaned here it looks to be a solid bit of kit for designing
suspensions from scratch -- particularly for the "conventional" double a-arm type. The only place I've seen with formulas to take
the guesswork out of choosing spring rates.
Puhn: bit dated, bit American, but very informative on how suspensions work and how to modify them to work better, more focus on improving existing
than building from scratch.
Smith: Invaluable, No-one should design or build anything (not even a toaster) without reading this book front to back and inside out. He's a
bit of a character, lots of wierd American flavoured libertarian eccentricity in his views and presentation, makes the book, otherwise quite
technical, a very entertaining read.
Cheers, Ted
ps, with my newfound knowledge I'll be back with a wider array of astoundingly silly questions...
[Edited on 29/3/04 by andkilde]
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