Ahheck01
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 posted on 16/7/08 at 09:48 PM |
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Have a meriad of ideas - need direction!
Hey guys, my name is Evan. I'm 22, and I own two businesses - a detail shop and a web-based marketing franchise. Between the two I'm about
one year away from having $10k-$15k allocated to my custom car project. Also, my time is going to be considerably freed up as of late '09 as
I'll be selling the detail business and delegating more with the marketing bit.
So, the money, the space, the time - it's on its way, and the pressure is on for the planning stage to get well under way. I have some ambitious
goals, so I'd like to run all of my ideas by you all to get your suggestions.
For starters, I may likely do two projects - the initial ~$10k project that's closer to the locost mold, and then down the road a few years, a
$20k+ fully custom middy project. I'll detail out my vision for each:
First Project:
I'm 6' 7", so the standard frame probably isn't going to do the trick. Unless there's a pre-built frame I can buy that
would allow me to fit, we're probably going to have to go custom.
I'd like to get pretty aggressive with the power without getting too ridiculous on the budget. I have to buy a lot of tools and equipment within
that $10-15k budget as well. I'd like smooth power delivery, so I'm hesitant to consider forced induction. That said, I'd love to
get under 3 seconds 0-60. It seems pointless to build a custom car that can still be smoked by other factory cars on the road. I'd also like to
muffle the loudness of the engine as much as possible. I love fast and quiet.
I know very little about suspension configurations. I'd like to drive this often, as a fair-weather DD, so nothing too harsh. I'd like to
do large wheels/tires too - probably in excess. Perhaps not F1-size, but with that appearance on a slightly smaller scale. I LOVE grip, as I've
owned and highly modified several BMW's for auto-xing.
As far as the details, I'm fairly open minded about the locost. I would love your help in offering specifics - drivetrain, chassis, suspension,
wheel/tires.
Edit: If based on the info provided you think I might as well just get started on the middy, I'm open to that.
Fully custom middy:
I've been dreaming about this for years. I've conjured up and nixed several ideas. There are a few things that I'd really like to
accomplish.
- Streetable - In terms of comfort and legality. I'd like to have a wheel/tire combination specifically for the street - maybe even a suspension
adjustment that would allow it to handle bumps and humps and whatnot.
- Extreme Grip - For putting down incredible power (500+hp), intense lateral grip, and painfully quick braking. We're talking about serious
compression of my innards when pushing it. I'm envisioning very wide rubber - I wouldn't hesitate to do 285's all around (F1 Tires
are 325ish), or something along those lines. Very open for discussion. Also, I'd like a very wide stance - anything to increase grip
- Downforce and Aerodynamics - I know locosts aren't great in this area, so I'm up for going a completely different direction with the
design. This won't be a track-only vehicle, and in fact probably won't be raced competitively - just for fun - so I don't
necessarily want to sacrifice hugely in the streetable aspect in order to allow infinity pounds of downforce - I just want to increase the grip and
thus safety at high speeds when I do have the opportunity to take it out.
- Fit and Finish - I would like to be a bit overkill on the quality and toughness of this vehicle, because I intend to get good use out of it, but
also because I intend to give rides to people I care a lot about. Because of my detailing business, I have hookups in terms of paint, and will be
getting the whole car professionally painted to a very high degree of quality. I'll be custom making LED taillights and turn signals, as well as
headlight assemblies. Also, I know that lightness is a key feature of these cars, but I'll probably add about 30-50lbs of high end sound
deadening from SecondSkin (maximum deadening per lb) in order to make cruising more tolerable.
- Amenities/Technology - I'd like to have two sets of seats - one set for racing, as it would be dangerous to push it without racing seats - and
one for cruising with a passenger around town. I don't need any HVAC, as I'm pretty sure I'm going to keep this open-top. This is up
for discussion as well, though.
Also, I"m a control freak, so I'd like to have gauges for everything - speed, RPM's, gas, coolant temp, oil temp, oil pressure,
cockpit air temp, tire temp, tire pressure, exhaust richness/leanness gauges (forgot the name for it), built-in Valentine One radar detector with
discreet display, small videocamera mount, and I'm sure I"ll think of more.
Once I've identified the details of what I want, I'll be working with a few buddies that are soon to graduate with Mechanical, Aerospace,
and Materials Engineering degrees, hiring them to help the execution.
Alright folks, let's hear your suggestions and comments!
Thanks,
-Evan
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DRC INDY 7
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| posted on 16/7/08 at 09:57 PM |
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Welcome to the forum thats quite a big post for your 1st post 
https://www.facebook.com/groups/462610273778799/
Puddle Dodgers Club
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simoto
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| posted on 16/7/08 at 10:18 PM |
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striker/blade now complete, thanks to all on this site.
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omega0684
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| posted on 16/7/08 at 11:46 PM |
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that it one BIG post!
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TheGecko
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| posted on 17/7/08 at 04:04 AM |
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Hi Evan & welcome aboard. As others have said that's a big initial post
Unlike them, I'm actually going to comment on the content. I suspect I'm going to p*ss on your parade quite a bit too
For a start, let's look at your "Locost" type proposal. It is readily apparent that you've never been in a clubman or Locost
type car. If you had, you would realise that concerns about engine noise are meaningless in an open car with the aerodynamics of a brick. The wind
noise will almost certainly overpower the engine and exhaust once you get up to any sort of speed.
Next, performance. Clubmans are built for handling - that means going around corners too, not just straight lines. North Americans seem to have a
bizarre obsession with straight line performance and think that it somehow defines a sports car. It does not - it defines a dragster, which is
definitely not a sports car. Sports cars are defined by a combination of spirited performance, and excellent handling, which in the case of clubmans
is normally achieved by keeping weight down. Most of the clubmans I've been involved with have been around 600kgs (~1300lbs), and there have
been plenty built that are under 500kg (1100lbs). With 1600cc DOHC Corolla motors they can easily outpace big-engined V8s on fun, winding roads. You
DO NOT need a big engine to have fun in a clubman if you're using it the way it's intended. If you just want to win drag races, buy a
dragster.
Big wheels/tyres - not a great combination on a clubman. Light weight means sprung/unsprung mass ratio issues. Larger wheels and tyres weigh LOTS
more than smaller ones and that will not help suspension control. Also, a wide tyre with insufficient mass on it has worse grip than a narrower one.
I've rarely seen clubmans (except for heavily aero-equipped, track only cars) with tyres wider than 205's. And most are using 13, 14, or
15" wheels at most.
That's probably enough picking apart your first vision, now I'll start in on your middy (which is what this section is really about).
First - there is no way you're building anything like your proposed spec for anything near $20k. You're specifying Ferrari performance on
a Toyota budget. Just adding up the major components uses most of the budget - 500+HP engine & transmission to suit -> $5k-$10k (minimum); 285
wheels and tyres -> $2k+++ (x2 for different street and track configurations); decent quality suspension components to carry all that -> $2k+ ;
gauge-o-rama interior with two sets of seats -> $5k and then straight up. And then there's the little extras like a chassis that's
strong and stiff enough to make it all work and be safe; bodywork that gives you the aero you want and doesn't look like it was styled and built
by monkeys etc, etc, etc.
Like I said at the top, I'm p*ssing on your parade  I'm doing it because your enthusiasm, whilst admirable, exceeds the bounds of what
is achievable (And don't anyone dare tell me that we should always encourage dreams - just because I can dream of flying to the moon by flapping
my arms doesn't mean it will ever happen).
My suggestions are: go out and get a ride (or better still, a drive) in a clubman of some sort so that you understand what they are and, more
importantly, what they aren't. If you still like the idea after that, draw up a list of all the parts you think you'll need and try to
put realistic prices against them. Post the list here and we can point out all the bits you've missed Then add 50% to the total and ask
yourself if you're happy spending that amount and 12-24 months building a 2-seat, dry-weather sports car. If the answer is still yes, then you
just started a Locost project
So, despite the negativity (!), I encourage you to have a go, but to do it with your eyes absolutely wide open to avoid disappointment down the
track.
Dominic
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clairetoo
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| posted on 17/7/08 at 05:51 AM |
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Hiya and welcome
One small point - you could easily spend your 10 to 15k budget on tools.....................
Its cuz I is blond , innit
Claire xx
Will weld for food......
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Fred W B
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| posted on 17/7/08 at 06:10 AM |
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quote:
12-24 months building a 2-seat, dry-weather sports car
X by a factor of oh, 2 or 3 if you are doing a scratch build custom body
Welcome, and thanks for the taking the time to detail your plans.
Take a weekend, and read back a long way in this section of the forum. You will get a cross section of all the issues WRT building what you propose
cheers
Fred W B.
You can do it quickly. You can do it cheap. You can do it right. – Pick any two.
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Ahheck01
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| posted on 17/7/08 at 07:10 AM |
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Thanks for the bluntness, and for responding with relevant feedback!
The only issue I take with your response was the suggestion that I'm enamored with drag times more than track handling. I've owned and
autoxed 6 BMW's and invested thousands into their handling ability, and none into go-fast mods. If my obsession was straight-line speed,
I'd have a V8 domestic in an f-body or the like.
Okay, now that I've defended my good name 
The middy idea is way out there, so I'm not going to get wrapped up in planning that. I may be more confident in planning that once I have the
experience of a locost or two.
I do want fast. I focused on 0-60 because handling is a given. After doing more research based on your comment about tire size, I've
discovered it's best to use the smallest wheel size possible to fit your brakes - I'm a big fan of stopping FAST, so I'm open for
suggestions on the best compromise between small/light wheels for a minimum rotational mass, and room for very well-performing brakes.
I'll scrap the sound deadening, though I'd still like to make it as quiet as possible without drastically restricting airflow and thus
reducing power. Would a turbo-4cyl be the best option, then? What is a common option for people who want above-average acceleration without dumping
a large, heavy engine in there, or adding $10k for the drivetrain?
How would you guys suggest I find the nearest locost owner? I don't see any regional forums, and I haven't seen many in Cedar Rapids,
Iowa.
Thanks again for your input!
-Evan
quote:
Originally posted by TheGecko
Hi Evan & welcome aboard. As others have said that's a big initial post
"..."
So, despite the negativity (!), I encourage you to have a go, but to do it with your eyes absolutely wide open to avoid disappointment down the
track.
Dominic
[Edited on 17/7/08 by Ahheck01]
[Edited on 17/7/08 by Ahheck01]
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scotty g
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| posted on 17/7/08 at 07:34 AM |
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Hi Evan and welcome,
don't worry at all about your height becaused the beauty of this type of project is that you can build the chassis to suit your size. i know
guys of 6.3", 6.4" who can fit comfortably into a standard chassis so at worst all you will have to do is stretch the seating area by
4" and you'll be fine.
Dreaming about grand ideas is a good thing and always welcomed her, as said already the best thing to do is post up your plans/ideas in detail and
there are always people here to give informed (mostly) advise and oppinions.
Get out in as many different Kitcars as possible to give a better feel for whats out there and what they are capable of.
Cheers.
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adithorp
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| posted on 17/7/08 at 08:06 AM |
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" What is a common option for people who want above-average acceleration without dumping a large, heavy engine in there, or adding $10k for the
drivetrain? "
Oh Oh can I be first?
BEC! BEC! BEC!
adrian
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Dangle_kt
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| posted on 17/7/08 at 08:28 AM |
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HI mate,
great first post!
I can only comment on what I have had experience of, which is a locost. These are great cars, and I think you;ve made a good choice of a first
project.
I will add that you may well find a number of frustrations building a true locost. A kitcar is a far easier option, with a locost there are 101 things
which frustrate you, stop you, stump you and annoy.
I;d hate your enthusiasm to wane and you be stuck with something you hate.
Saying that, you could easily do it in your budget if you are careful with $$$, though sub 3 seconds 0-60 will be tough. Even the quickest BEC's
are nearer 4 seconds.
I am not trying to discourage you, but if you go into a project with false expectations then disapointment follows, and quickly behind disapointment
comes giving up.
You might want to consider a luego chassis, they are a bit bigger than standard - this removes some of the headache and minimises
development/failures, not sure about shipping, but I'm sure you could sort something in a container.
You could still do the rest, givin you expeirence in a number of areas, without causing yourself any headaches.
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Ahheck01
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| posted on 17/7/08 at 08:54 AM |
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I like the idea of a bike engine - it would be really cool to have the high-revving, almost F1 sound, especially if it was possible to do paddle
shifters or something similar.
The only problem is that I'm not seeing any bike engines that put out 200+hp, and none seem very torquey, which for a heavier-than-a-bike
vehicle seems like it would be much less satisfying than a torquey turbo 4cyl or V6.
Or perhaps putting a turbo on a bike engine would be possible?
I don't know, what do you guys think?
-Evan
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BenB
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| posted on 17/7/08 at 09:28 AM |
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ZZR1400 192Bhp stock
Wack on a turbo a la
http://www.bigccracing.com/shop/product.asp?idproduct=308
280Bhp from 7 PSI.
Anything up to 600Bhp....
Only costs £6,462.50 too
Next question?
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hobzy
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| posted on 17/7/08 at 09:38 AM |
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Hi and welcome!
Having just bought my first MK Indy, let me assure you that having under 200hp is not an issue - remember these cars weigh under 600kg, which means a
Yamaha R1 engine like the one in mine is putting out 300 hp per ton and getting to 60 in very near 4 seconds. To get marginally quicker, its proabably
cheaper to shed the weight than boost the engine. There are plenty of charged BECs about, but the fact you are sitting in an open cockpit, next to the
exhaust and in such a low position means the acceleration is absolutely brutal. The lack of a high top speed (they have the aerodynamics of bricks,
and its not particularly enjoyable sitting in them at over 100 anyway for long periods!) also means the margins you will gain probably arent worth the
investment on your initial build. Light wheels, good track/road tyres and the right diff will be more critical.
Not that I wouldn't love more power though
Enjoy your build. Even though I cheated this time and bought a secondhand car, I'm already in love with it and can't wait to fettle it a
bit to my own specs.
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ravingfool
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| posted on 17/7/08 at 10:12 AM |
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To contrast your amazingly involved first post I'm going to make a short and sweet response.
Have you considered a supercharged toyota 4age? It strikes me as something that might fit your requirements.
It's a modern lightweight engine, revs as high as 8500rpm! and you can get 250bhp before adding a supercharger. I can't find a link at
the moment but it's definitely possible to supercharge it, RAW engineering do it and I'm sure someone on here has done it aswell.
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 17/7/08 at 10:23 AM |
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Best to go in a 7 and see what they are like, you might be surprised at amount of noise and wind buffet especially with an aero screen. I like that
kind of thing but some folk find it too extreme and a bit intimidating. Sound insulation would do little TOH, well apart from make it colder
Fame is when your old car is plastered all over the internet
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TheGecko
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| posted on 17/7/08 at 12:04 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Ahheck01
Thanks for the bluntness, and for responding with relevant feedback!
Like I said, I was trying to be brutally honest to limit future disappointment.
quote:
The only issue I take with your response was the suggestion that I'm enamored with drag times more than track handling.
Well, you did say: That said, I'd love to get under 3 seconds 0-60. It seems pointless to build a custom car that can still be smoked by
other factory cars on the road. Now let's get some perspective here. The current BMW M5 has 500BHP and manages 0-60 in about 4.7s.
Admittedly, it weighs 1700kg (3750lbs) but still. Can you point to ANY factory car that comes even close to 3 seconds. For crying out loud, a Pagani
Zonda, at 408kw/1280kg (550BHP/2800lbs) only does 3.7 seconds!!! Like I said, you have to make your expectations realistic. A clubman will be just
about flat out not far above 200km/h (say, 120mph) anyway, because of the aerodynamics.
quote:
I'm a big fan of stopping FAST, so I'm open for suggestions on the best compromise between small/light wheels for a minimum
rotational mass, and room for very well-performing brakes.
You don't need huge brakes when you're only stopping 600kg. Most of
the clubmans I've been in stop hard enough to pop your eyeballs out and many of them have 10" solid disc fronts and drum rears.
14" or 15" wheels, 7" or 8" wide with good, sticky tyres and quality brake pads will stop you plenty hard enough for anything
but all out track work. As noted above, you won't be getting much faster than 200km/h anyway. If you want high straight line speed,
don't build a clubman. Their forte is handling not "like a dropped stone" acceleration.
quote:
How would you guys suggest I find the nearest locost owner? I don't see any regional forums, and I haven't seen many in Cedar
Rapids, Iowa.
There are (at least) two North American forums:
- Locost_North_America list on YahooGroups
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Locost_North_America)
- LocostUSA (http://www.locostusa.com/forums/index.php)
I strongly suggest you have a really good look at a few of these cars before you commit yourself to a build. They are nothing like a
performance sedan or coupe. They are noisy, uncomfortable, and an enormous amount of fun
Dominic
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paul the 6th
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| posted on 23/7/08 at 11:19 AM |
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just a quick one about wind noise - any tried ear plugs? I wear them when I'm on the bike and I can't ride without them! welcome to the
forum btw
GoDesign.me.uk - Self Adhesive Vinyl Artwork, Wide Format Printed Artwork and Customised Heat
Pressed Clothing...
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http://picasaweb.google.com/haynesroadster - Roadster Photo Build Log
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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