BasOlij
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| posted on 31/12/02 at 07:46 PM |
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Introduction
Hi everyone,
I've been reading this message board for a while and I think it is time to be a little more active.
The past few years I have been reading alot about kitcars and it wasn't until a few months back that I discovered Ron Champion's book and read it
twice now already.
Finding Alan's MR project inspired me even more, I really like the MR concept but I wanted to make something totally by myself and since I have not
done this before I did not want to take up the task. So I kept my focus on the Locost.
But last week I was discussing all this with a friend of mine who has similar wishes. Just like me he is an RX7 fan and he has been wanting to make a
787B replica for some time. We started discussing the ideas.
I've been busy on the design of the spaceframe and body of the car and am hoping I can post some 3D pictures here soon and get some help. The book
has convinced me I can do this with my knowladge and the help of some friends but since I have never designed a spaceframe before suggestions will be
very welcome.
General specs so far:
- Mazda 13B n/a rotary engine (RX7-FC)
- Porsche 914 transaxle (provided I can find one for an acceptable price
- Suspension, steering, etc. from the donor RX7-FC
- 1.6 meters wide, 3.4 meters long (much smaller then the 787B, I don't want a replica:-) but it will be that sort of look).
My biggest concern is if I can make the spaceframe work and not make it to small (I'm not the smallest guy around:-) and that I need the RX7 donor
car registration to be applicable to the new car.
Thanks for advise and help, I hope to make some new friends here:-)
[Edited on 31/12/02 by BasOlij]
Greetz,
Bastiaan Olij
1984 Porsche 944 type 2
1981 Delorean DMC-12
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Alan B
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| posted on 31/12/02 at 08:15 PM |
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Hi Bas, Welcome to the madhouse.....
To be honest I'm not familiar with the 787B......why not start posting some pictures and your ideas into the archive....as soon as you have
registered (like now) you can start posting...it creates your section automatically...
There are plenty of us on here who will look stuff over and give our opinions...
Looking forward to seeing your ideas...
Alan
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BasOlij
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| posted on 31/12/02 at 08:35 PM |
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Hi Alan,
Seems that I indeed have come to the right place. As soon as I have my basic design worked out I will certainly post some pics here.
The Mazda 787B was the 4 rotor GT car that won the Le Mans in 1991. Just like in superbikes, rally and now the GT class rotor cars where banned.
http://www.2751engineering.com/787.html
Greetz,
Bastiaan Olij
1984 Porsche 944 type 2
1981 Delorean DMC-12
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Alan B
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| posted on 31/12/02 at 08:43 PM |
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Ah yes, very nice indeed
Sounds like a great project...I'll be watching with great interest.
Good luck, and see you around.
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Alan B
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| posted on 31/12/02 at 08:46 PM |
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Oh, forgot to say if you can use a ring-gear flipped VW type 1 IRS transaxle then I'm sure that Kennedy engineering (here in the US) do an adapter
for the RX engine.
You probably knew already though
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BasOlij
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| posted on 31/12/02 at 09:05 PM |
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Hi Alan,
Thanks, already knew about that. Some of the american RX7 guys have put their 12A's and 13Bs into those VW bugs and already informed me of that. I
will go that route if I can't find an exceptable priced 914 transaxle.
The only problem with the bug's axle is that it's a 4 speed and the gearing is a little long for the 13B. The 914 is a 5 speed:-)
A dutch friend of mine is pondering about putting a 12A into his bug aswell, maybe see what his experience with that is and go for the cheaper bug
transaxle:-)
Greetz,
Bastiaan Olij
1984 Porsche 944 type 2
1981 Delorean DMC-12
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BasOlij
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| posted on 31/12/02 at 10:01 PM |
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Okay, this is a very early stage render. The spaceframe is far from completed and the body work is not yet rendered so it's hard to see what the final
idea is but it will be close to a GT car like the 787B. Haven't desided if it will be a open roof or not.
The engine box is just a guess of what the 13B with transaxle should be, I don't have accurate messurements.
I will probably shift things around before I am happy with the frame and there are still many crossmembers and triangle constructions to be added.
Also in some places I have to much:-)
Radiator will be up front. At the back and side of the passenger compartment some airdams will be created to cool the engine further. Also the oil
cooler will be mounted somewhere there. I haven't desided on the fuel tank, best guess is somewhere in the back, only place there is room so will have
to be something good (/strong/safe).
 
Rescued attachment MR_frame03.jpg
Greetz,
Bastiaan Olij
1984 Porsche 944 type 2
1981 Delorean DMC-12
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Rorty
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| posted on 1/1/03 at 06:42 AM |
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Hello Bas, and welcome too. I think though, you are on the wrong forum, only for the reason, I can't see your project being
Locost!
Only joking, it's a very interesting looking project. I know absolutely nothing about rotaries, apart from the funny noise they make, so I too will
be following this one closely.
Have you considered the possibility of using a 5 speed Renault transaxle? I've used a few in the past, and have even converted them to LSD.
Coincidently, some of the Peugeot pickups had a ZF slippy diff in them, which more or less drops straight into the Renault
transaxle.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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BasOlij
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| posted on 1/1/03 at 07:11 AM |
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Hi Rorty,
I have no idea what sort of price tag this is going to have but I'm going to try to go as low as possible without compromising safety. So going for
single donor if possible (only transaxle can't come from an RX7). I can probably get most parts I need from my old RX7 that got wrecked last year
(not my fault:-( ).
Renault transaxle would be nice, I have one of those in my Delorean I think. My biggest concern is mating it to the rotary. There is a widely used
adapter for the VW/914 transaxle which I know is good. For a renault transaxle I'd be looking at having someone create a one off for me $$$.
The reason for chosing the rotary is pure love for the technology. There are lighter engines out there that produce more hp. But none the less it's a
special thing since it uses rotors instead of pistons which means the engine is simpler and vibrates less. It's a 1.3 liter twin rotor that produces
150bhp stock. The turbo'ed version from the FC deliveres 200bhp stock (early versions 180) and from the FD (bit over budget for me) delivers 250bhp
stock (the new RX-8 delivers that without a turbo:-)).
Engines are very tuneable. Only downside is that they use more fuel then piston engines but I hope the end result of this project will be much
lighter.
Greetz,
Bastiaan Olij
1984 Porsche 944 type 2
1981 Delorean DMC-12
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BasOlij
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| posted on 1/1/03 at 11:05 AM |
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I am not happy with it yet but this is the basic idea for the body work....
It's hard to get the shape right in 3D, probably when I need to make the real molds I can get it much nicer. Awell we are far from that stage
yet:-)
 
Rescued attachment MR_frame05.jpg
Greetz,
Bastiaan Olij
1984 Porsche 944 type 2
1981 Delorean DMC-12
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Alan B
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| posted on 1/1/03 at 02:00 PM |
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Hi again Bas....
I agree about curvy shapes being hard to do in 3d....
What software are you using?
Looks like you are on the right track so far.
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BasOlij
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| posted on 1/1/03 at 02:10 PM |
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HI Alan,
Using 3DS Max for this so it is pure modeling, no calcs whatsover for the structure. Did some final tweaks and I am pretty happy with the end result.
Only needs a nice spoiler. Also I couldn't get the doors completely right, I'll have to figure that one out when building it.
The Limbo doors are just for fun, I have no idea yet what mechanism I am going to put in place for the doors.
Gonne continue now on finishing the space frame and the on to suspention and all that.
One thing that I am very interested in knowing, what have you guys have done concerning windows? For a GT look like this I don't think I can get a
window from a normal sedan or something. I'll have to do something custom.
 
Rescued attachment MR_frame07.jpg
Greetz,
Bastiaan Olij
1984 Porsche 944 type 2
1981 Delorean DMC-12
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Stu16v
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| posted on 1/1/03 at 03:31 PM |
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Hello Bas, that is looking impressive mate....
I know it is early stages, but looking at the render for the frame skeleton I would be looking at introducing more triangulation in the cabin area,
maybe diagonals in the floorpan area and in between the upper and lower chassis members along the sides. I think you could be losing a lot of rigidity
without it.
Regards, Stu.
Dont just build it.....make it!
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BasOlij
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| posted on 1/1/03 at 03:34 PM |
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Hi Stu,
There are 3 triangles now and they are for the cooling mount and stuff:-)
I haven't gotten around to that yet but don't worry, I'm definatelly going to add enough of them:-)
I wanted to make the body first so I could adjust the frame proportions first. It's such a hassle to change diagonal bars in 3D constantly so I am
saving that for last:-)
Greetz,
Bastiaan Olij
1984 Porsche 944 type 2
1981 Delorean DMC-12
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Stu16v
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| posted on 1/1/03 at 03:51 PM |
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Ahhhh, I see.....
Looking foward to the next installment
Keep up the good work Bas!!!
Dont just build it.....make it!
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BasOlij
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| posted on 1/1/03 at 04:56 PM |
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Hey Stu,
well the nice thing about having the day off is that you tend to do alot of work:-) So here's one more picture. But I think I'll call it quits
now:-)
Put most of the diagonal bars in now.
Anyone got any pointers for me so far? Have I made any obvious design faults? I'm still not sure if the car is big enough, but I want to keep it as
small as is realistic:-)
 
Rescued attachment MR_frame08.jpg
Greetz,
Bastiaan Olij
1984 Porsche 944 type 2
1981 Delorean DMC-12
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Bart Vangampelaere
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| posted on 1/1/03 at 05:33 PM |
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Hello Bas,
as you can see I have registerd too. Now we can discuss some more over here aswell For the other people : my name is Bart, I live in Belgium, and
I'm the friend Bas mentioned. So, yep, I'm the one who'd like an exact replica of the 787B...
I think your work is coming along nicely, wish I was that good with a PC...
You could take a look at the KUDZU-Mazda, from LM. It's an open MR car, might be intresting to you. Unfortuneatly, the link I have for that one
doesn't seem to work anymore.
The Autoexe WR might be intresting to you too.
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BasOlij
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| posted on 1/1/03 at 06:59 PM |
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Hey Bart,
That autoexe is a beauty!
If you finish those drawings for your 787 I'd be happy to put them into my PC and get you some renders from it:-)
Greetz,
Bastiaan Olij
1984 Porsche 944 type 2
1981 Delorean DMC-12
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Bart Vangampelaere
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| posted on 1/1/03 at 07:19 PM |
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Hi Bas,
got holidays until the 21st, so should have some time to finish the drawings
I will let you know, ok?
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Stu16v
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| posted on 1/1/03 at 07:42 PM |
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The only other suggestion that Iwould perhaps look at doing myself would be the introduction of a transmission tunnel (so to speak) in the centre of
the chassis from front to rear of the cabin area, which I think would add greatly to the overall strength of the chassis. It will also double up as a
handy place to mount gear levers, handbrakes etc, and to run various pipes and wires through.....
Or you just havent got round to adding it yet, ignore me.
Dont just build it.....make it!
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BasOlij
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| posted on 1/1/03 at 07:50 PM |
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Hi Stu,
You are very right indeed:-) I'm still fiddling with that idea, I need to run the cooling pipes to the front somehow and a gear changer might come in
handy when you get above 20kmph:-)
Thanks:-)
Greetz,
Bastiaan Olij
1984 Porsche 944 type 2
1981 Delorean DMC-12
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Rorty
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| posted on 2/1/03 at 04:24 AM |
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Bas, you'll have to excuse the time delay with my replies, as I'm on the other side of the world.
You're correct about the Delorean having the Renault transaxle, it's mated to the Renault/Volvo V6. I'm very familiar with the Delorean. Before I
moved down here 11 years ago, a friend in N. Ireland worked for Delorean, and I drove his.
I think you'll find that the 914 trans is scarcer than the Renault trans, with a commensurate price tag!
If you can find the data for the transaxle, I'm quite happy to design an adaptor plate to suit. I can convert it to G-code too, for direct input into
a CNC mill or router, which would be a very economical way of doing it.
The last one i did, was a couple of years ago, and cost about AUD$125 for the aluminium, and AUD$160 to machine it, so roughly UKP100.00.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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BasOlij
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| posted on 2/1/03 at 05:32 AM |
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Hi Rorty,
Whow its a small world afterall:-)
Hmm, I'm afraid this whole adapter stuff is pretty new to me so I'm a bit unsure what data you exactly need. But it does sounds pretty good, Kenedy
engineering asks 400 USD for the Mazda <-> Porsche adapter plate. If you can make me an adapter plate to fit it to a renault I'd be very happy.
Anyways, I'll put this on my list of options, when I get to the point where I have the engine and I'm looking to buy the transaxle I'll make my
final choice and be sure to contact you.
Thanks alot, sounds very promising! The renault transaxle is in abundance here so it would be a very smart choice for me:-)
Greetz,
Bastiaan Olij
1984 Porsche 944 type 2
1981 Delorean DMC-12
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Bart Vangampelaere
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| posted on 2/1/03 at 07:37 AM |
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Hey Bas, get a decent transaxle, so I can buy a copy of that adapter-plate
Well, I'm not sure how much HP the Renault one could take, but I guess it'd be more then a VW or 914, so...
Still, could it cope with aprox. 500+hp from my dream engine on the long run?
BTW, still working on the chassis drawings...
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BasOlij
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| posted on 2/1/03 at 10:56 AM |
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Bart,
I know the transaxle in the Delorean can handle 200hp easily (except my autotran, it has a max of 160). I know there are people out there who go even
higher, some of the turbos go over the 200 mark with the stock tranny. Michiel has just rebuild his PRV-6 and I think it is around 250hp and goes
fine. Ed is thinking of a 300+ hp Delorean at the moment.
I'll ask them what the max rate is for the stock renault transaxle, if it is not enough there are still plenty of options. The PRV-6 is used in MANY
cars and there are many trannies that fit on it so in theory they should all be able to attach to a 13B with the same adapter.
Owh, here is a nice fact btw. The tranny runs the right way for our intended layout but the wrong way around for the Delorean (Delorean is tranny
first, then engine). The result is that they reversed the gears on the tranny so it runs the wrong way internally. As a result they couldn't use the
speedometer connection on the car (it is in a desperatly wrong place also) and as a result the Delorean has a REAL crappy cable attached to the left
front wheel to messure speed:-)
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