tadltd
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| posted on 2/2/04 at 11:11 PM |
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Calling North America!
How big is the track-day scene in North America (I refer to the continent, which of course includes Canada...)?
I personally haven't heard much about it on this side (UK) of the pond - perhaps it's because racing's so cheap and diverse over
there (although there does seem to be a large following of 'prototype' style racing...)?
I'm obviously not looking for official stats, just trying to get an idea of how 'our' scene compares with 'yours'! How
many of you guys (N.A.) attend track-days?
Steve.
(edited to make some kinda sense!)
[Edited on 2/2/04 by tadltd]
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andkilde
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| posted on 2/2/04 at 11:42 PM |
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AFAIK it all comes down to geography over here.
There do seem to be plenty of events available for folks who live close to the circuits but unfortunately the circuits are very widely spread, closest
one to me is about three hours tow, next is six hours, then eight. You seem to have a fantastic situation in Britain with two or three tracks within
an hours drive of most populated areas and a hillclimb or rally every weekend. We do have a lot of autocross competitions (sort of a high speed, all
in forward gears, auto-test) held on parking lots.
[Edited on 3/2/04 by andkilde]
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pbura
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| posted on 3/2/04 at 01:13 AM |
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About 25-30 years ago, parking lot autocrosses were all the rage in my area, but I haven't seen one in some time.
Andkilde's right, tracks are regional and few and far between. There's a nice two-mile road course near me (Nelson's Ledges) and
they have very casual track days. Bring your street car and a helmet and drive all day for $100. I see that open-wheeled cars are banned on these
days, and I hope that Locosts are not included in this group. 
Racing's generally considered to be a fairly expensive hobby, like flying, belonging to a country club, or spending a lot of time with hookers,
eh, Alan? 
Pete
Pete
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rontyler
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| posted on 3/2/04 at 01:24 AM |
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PIR (Portland, Oregon) holds many club sponsored "track days" per season.
Regards, Ron Tyler
"Nothing is ever accomplished by a reasonable man."
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kb58
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| posted on 3/2/04 at 01:47 AM |
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Hey Ron, do you know about this guy?
http://www.dpcars.net
He lives in Portland I believe. Check out the BEC (4WD!) car he's building... second car up from the bottom.
Back to topic, check out this link I found last night. It's (more or less) a list of track events in California.
http://track-days.org/
It'll give you an idea about cost and how often they're held.
I don't know about the rest of the country, but what was said above is true. Add in expensive land, dumb legal suits, people who (99%)
don't have a clue about their cars, and you end up with an amazingly small number of people interested in driving events.
I always thought England was Heaven On Earth for sports car enthousiasts...
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rontyler
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| posted on 3/2/04 at 02:29 AM |
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Hey Ron, do you know about this guy?
http://www.dpcars.net
KB,
Unfortunatly I don't. I took a quick peek at his DP1... IMPRESSIVE... I just may have to pay him a visit!
Thanks for the heads up.
Regards, Ron Tyler
"Nothing is ever accomplished by a reasonable man."
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Alan B
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| posted on 3/2/04 at 12:29 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by pbura
......Racing's generally considered to be a fairly expensive hobby, like flying, belonging to a country club, or spending a lot of time with
hookers, eh, Alan?
Pete
Wouldn't know about the last bit (honestly), but I agree with the rest..
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ProjectLMP
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| posted on 3/2/04 at 03:40 PM |
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In Ontario track days are pretty popular. There are 4 tracks within 3.5 hours drive and soon to be a 5th one. Most of the track days are run by clubs
such as BMW, Porsche, Audi and the compact car crowd (tend to be more crash fests than anything else). Dedicated track day machinery isn't that
popular. Most people prefer to drive their cars to the track. I don't think people would be too keen driving for more than say an hour in a
seven or LMP style car. Also getting a bike powered LMP style car registered road legal would be a very big challenge. Plus most insurance companies
won't touch kit cars in Ontario. If you can find one, expect to pay upward of $3500 CDN a year for insurance.
Home of the Astronomicalcost Mid engined LMP project
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sgraber
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| posted on 3/2/04 at 04:22 PM |
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There are a number of tracks here in the Phoenix Metro area. An area about 100miles long and 30 miles tall... We have Phoenix International Raceway
which is usually an oval for Nascar and IRL, but they do have a road course. Arizona Motorsport Park opened up last year was a 7 million dollar
facility, but they just shut down due to encroaching homes (yes, it grows that fast!) and subsequent complaints about noise. I hear that the owner may
re-open with strict noise enforcement. Bob Bondurant has his school of high performance driving here and the adjoining track/dragstrip/road course is
open once or twice a month to street car floggings. In general it is much less expensive and more convenient to go to the indoor karting tracks...
Seems that most people I meet think "Drag racing, oval track, dirt track" when the word "racing" is mentioned.
It sucks I tell ya!
Graber
Steve Graber
http://www.grabercars.com/
"Quickness through lightness"
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timf
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| posted on 3/2/04 at 04:41 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by sgraber
Arizona Motorsport Park opened up last year was a 7 million dollar facility, but they just shut down due to encroaching homes (yes, it grows that
fast!) and subsequent complaints about noise.
wtf 
does that mean if i had a house built next to an airport i could complain and have it shut down.
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kb58
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| posted on 3/2/04 at 04:48 PM |
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Same thing happened to Ontario Motor Speedway in the Los Angeles area. Only existed a couple years.
Riverside lasted a long time, but the city built up around it, property values went up, so it was closed. Supposably they were to replace it...
I'm still waiting. Unless you count Buttonwillow... which doesn't count...
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andkilde
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| posted on 4/2/04 at 03:33 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ProjectLMP
Also getting a bike powered LMP style car registered road legal would be a very big challenge. Plus most insurance companies won't touch kit
cars in Ontario. If you can find one, expect to pay upward of $3500 CDN a year for insurance.
Hmmn, pop down to your local MOT license bureau and chat with the "commisioner". I've registered a couple of cars in Ontario on
an "afidavid", basically the guy who runs the place asks you some probing questions about the origins of the car, writes it up and
registers it based on the information provided. There are also some fairly specific rules regarding "Kit Cars" which probably apply to a
scratch built as well.
I know of at least a couple of Ontario Locosters who've been able to get cars registered. AFAIK Ontario also relaxed the "drive
clean" for kit cars recently as well.
As for insurance, try Lant Insurance, I currently use them for classic cover, ~$175 per year with about $10,000 agreed value. They offer a
"Custom Wheel" program for modified cars -- you have to have a licensed and insured daily driver but the insurance on your hobby car is
very reasonable.
Cheers, Ted
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ProjectLMP
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| posted on 4/2/04 at 01:20 PM |
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The problem is that I think Coram (or whatever their new name is) aren't producing kit cars any more. So getting them into the country in
assembled form even if they don't have a drive train would be nearly impossible to do legally. They could obviously lie to customs. The only
thing you can ship in to the country legally declared as a kit is a chassis and body parts (excluding suspension, steering, fuel system). People then
get around this by shipping the missing stuff as generic car parts at a later date.
I've spent more time looking at registering kit and home built cars in Ontario than I want to. One problem for the LMP is that you need a
windscreen with working wipers. An Aero screen isn't good enough. Some friends of mine spoke to the chief safety engineer in the ministry who
insisted this was a requirement. Kit cars are exempt from emissions but not home built cars which is just stupid.
On the insurance, getting a 7 type car insured isn't too bad as you can say its a vintage car. Lant won't touch anything other than
vintage and hot rods. My friend tried everywhere to get his Ultima insured but couldn't find anyone except for facility (hence the high
prices).
[Edited on 4/2/04 by ProjectLMP]
[Edited on 4/2/04 by ProjectLMP]
Home of the Astronomicalcost Mid engined LMP project
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scuzzer
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| posted on 4/2/04 at 04:22 PM |
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Originally posted by pbura
......Racing's generally considered to be a fairly expensive hobby, like flying, belonging to a country club, or spending a lot of time with
hookers, eh, Alan?
Racing.................$0
country club........$0
Hookers..............$0
Flying..................$27,500 and counting
Although expensive for a hobby, I also get a career out of it.
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sgraber
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| posted on 4/2/04 at 04:36 PM |
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Scuzzer, you get your hookers for free!
Steve Graber
http://www.grabercars.com/
"Quickness through lightness"
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tadltd
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| posted on 4/2/04 at 04:42 PM |
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I was already aware that Canada was off limits for the LMP in it's current guise (i.e. no screen). What I was more interested in was the
prevalance of 'track-day' only cars, like the XTR2's and SR3's in the UK.
Although these cars can be road registered in the UK, they're pretty extreme and really only suited for the track.
What about importing a UK/European registered car? Is there a 'sliding scale' of roadworthiness that vehciles are subjected to before
they're approved for Canadian roads?
ProjectLMP: are you intending to use your car only as a racer/track-day weapon, then?
Steve.
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ProjectLMP
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| posted on 4/2/04 at 07:12 PM |
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Having attended many track days over the last 3 years I have never seen a Radical, westfield or even a seven. Having spoken to a lot of people, most
are put off having to trailer a car. Also when you mention that they cost upwards of $50,000 (nearer $100,000 for an SR3)including duties and taxes,
they just laugh at you. I do know of one SR3 being used for regional racing this year. In fact we do have a Radical distributor.
I intend on using my car for track days mainly. I currently trailer a BMW M3 race car and expect to do the same with the LMP. However, I haven't
given up hope on making the LMP road legal, its just not a high priority.
Home of the Astronomicalcost Mid engined LMP project
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scuzzer
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| posted on 5/2/04 at 05:24 AM |
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Originally posted by sgraber
Scuzzer, you get your hookers for free!
Yeah. Just call me da pimp daddy. I do racing and country clubs free too, of course.
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andkilde
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| posted on 5/2/04 at 02:34 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ProjectLMP
I've spent more time looking at registering kit and home built cars in Ontario than I want to. One problem for the LMP is that you need a
windscreen with working wipers. An Aero screen isn't good enough. Some friends of mine spoke to the chief safety engineer in the ministry who
insisted this was a requirement. Kit cars are exempt from emissions but not home built cars which is just stupid.
On the insurance, getting a 7 type car insured isn't too bad as you can say its a vintage car. Lant won't touch anything other than
vintage and hot rods. My friend tried everywhere to get his Ultima insured but couldn't find anyone except for facility (hence the high
prices).
Hmmn, so the Locost 7 folks have to get around by fudging the facts and relating their cars back to classics, eh.
An LMP has at least a passing resemblance to and shares many chassis components (read: round steel tube) with some obscure 60's sports
racers and specials. Or, a bit more devious, hypothetically I'm using a Mini steering rack, I have a 1968 Mini title and tags -- I'm
building a 1968 Mini-based "Hot-Rod".
And the windscreen thing is fairly trivial -- my best friend is a mechanic, we've spent a few hours poring over the safety manual. One
thing to keep in mind, every ministry guy has a different opinion on the way the rules are to be applied. Best way we've found to avoid the
windshield & wipers is "if present". Old cars which lack seatbelts do not require them for certification, the same (with a friendly
tester) would go for a windscreen. Failing that, look at a picture of the Lister front screen, it's a simple flat sheet -- fit an aftermarket
rear wiper (or a junkyard find from a small import) through a carefully drilled sheet of laminated glass and presto. If it mysteriously dissappears
after the fact you'll have to deal with your own conscience
When it comes closer to time let me know if you need a hand -- my mechanic is very thorough on safety issues but is willing to be flexible on missing
items, and, one of the MOT commisioners here is a "huge" British car nut, I've registered four imports with him with missing or
partial titles and it's simply a matter of chatting him up for a while. They won't say no as long as you ask the right questions.
As for Lant, they seem like reasonable folk, and I don't know why a 32 ford with a tube chassis, a 7.0 liter big block chevy and a fibreglass
body should be treated too much differently than something you or I might put together. I vaguely understand the Ultima being difficult to insure as
you'd have a hard time registering a recognizable new kit as anything other than it was -- and they're worth big money. Realistically,
outside of labour, the car I'm building will likely have an agreed value of around $5-10,000 -- the LMP might be a lot more as you have a
bespoke gearbox and are going to have nice bodywork -- but if you keep it reasonable and phrase it correctly it shouldn't be impossible.
Just don't be so bloody Canadian
Cheers, Ted
[Edited on 5/2/04 by andkilde]
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Hugh Paterson
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| posted on 5/2/04 at 07:23 PM |
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Steve, IMHO our colonial cousins must like padded seats in their cars now I know there is somthing missing between our lug holes if we are not meant
to spend more than an hour at a time driving this thing Mind u at my age it beats relying on viagra for cheap thrills
Shug.
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Alan B
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| posted on 5/2/04 at 09:46 PM |
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What's "viagra"..?....
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andkilde
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| posted on 5/2/04 at 10:58 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan B
What's "viagra"..?....
Just paint your car blue, close enough...
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Hugh Paterson
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| posted on 5/2/04 at 11:00 PM |
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Tut Tut Alan, Used by Scotsmen to help flagging/drooping tackle from the effects of frostbite from wearing the kilt (especially at this time of year
in the Highlands), anyway I buy mine from the same source as u (chuckle chuckle) Heard the one about the Irishman that swallowed a viagra
tablet...... got stuck in his throat and he got a stiff neck
Shug.
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ProjectLMP
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| posted on 6/2/04 at 06:21 PM |
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Ted,
Don't worry, I haven't given up on making the car road legal. I am just going to get the thing on the track first. I suspect it
won't make a very good road car anyway. However, I just want to see the looks on peoples faces driving it on the highway. I may take you up on
your offer regarding safety/emissions nearer the time. However, don't hold your breath. At the rate I am going I don't expect to finish
for another two years.
Home of the Astronomicalcost Mid engined LMP project
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andkilde
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| posted on 7/2/04 at 03:45 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ProjectLMP
Ted,
Don't worry, I haven't given up on making the car road legal. However, don't hold your breath. At the rate I am going I
don't expect to finish for another two years.
Err, sorry, I get awfully pushy on the net. Get caught up in the spirit of it all I guess. Either that or my job over "there" is
getting to me (I work for Republicans, it's all quite frightening actually ).
"I shall not foist my questionable ethics on others..." "I shall not foist my questionable ethics on others..." "I shall
not foist my questionable ethics on others..." "I shall not foist my questionable ethics on others..." "I shall not foist my
questionable ethics on others..." "I shall not foist my questionable ethics on others..." "I shall not foist my questionable
ethics on others..." "I shall not foist my questionable ethics on others..." "I shall not foist my questionable ethics on
others..." "I shall not foist my questionable ethics on others..." "I shall not foist my questionable ethics on
others..." "I shall not foist my questionable ethics on others..." "I shall not foist my questionable ethics on
others..." "I shall not foist my questionable ethics on others..." "I shall not foist my questionable ethics on
others..." "I shall not foist my questionable ethics on others..." "I shall not foist my questionable ethics on
others..." "I shall not foist my questionable ethics on others..." "I shall not foist my questionable ethics on
others..."
Seriously though, I discovered your site a year or so ago and have been following your progress quite intently (along with that DP1 fellow). My
project lives entirely inside my own head at the moment but I shall be cribbing heavily from your efforts as soon as I get underway.
Business takes me through your neck of the woods fairly frequently, I'd love to see the car in person someday.
Cheers, Ted
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