Tiger Super Six
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| posted on 23/11/10 at 02:20 PM |
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Duratec Install Questions
Chaps,
I have tracked down a Duratec which should be delivered tomorrow!
Couple of early questions:
1) From looking at other peoples engines on the exhaust ports (see pic 2 in this link
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=109801&page=1 ) one of them seems really oversized (no 1). Do I need to get something to blank
off this big hole?
2) How have people set up the breather system on a Duratec. The is a vent coming out the cam cover and I assume there is one or more from the bottom
end. Does anyone have any pic's and advice on how to run this. I assume it will then go to the usual catch tank?
Cheers in advance, I have lots of desire for the switch from pinto, but little knowledge of how to do it with a Duratec!
Mark.
Mark
Tiger Avon
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big-vee-twin
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| posted on 23/11/10 at 02:48 PM |
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Thats the EGR Valve it's blocked off at the back of the head (after removing the egr valve) and intake side
There is a breather on the inlet side below the inlet a 90 degree plastic pipe (crank) the rocker cover and crank go into the inlet on production car
I'm taking mine into an oil catch tank.
Here's a pic the crank breather is the black plastic panel between the water pump and starter motor the 90 degree pipe emanates from here
 
Duratec to Type9 Bellhousing
[Edited on 23/11/10 by big-vee-twin]
Duratec Engine is fitted, MS2 Extra V3 is assembled and tested, engine running, car now built. IVA passed 26/02/2016
http://www.triangleltd.com
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Tiger Super Six
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| posted on 23/11/10 at 03:09 PM |
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Cheers for the reply.
1) The EGR blank plate appears below the coil pack in pic 3 in the link ( http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=109801&page=1 ) I
thought? I was unsure what the oversized hole was on the exhaust outlet (pic 2). If there are two to blank off, whats the second one called?
2) I think the breathing made sense. So take a pipe from the right angled crank case breather, join it in the the cam case breather and then into a
catch tank. Is that right? With the crank breather is there anything to remove like to PCV valve (I think it's called) on a pinto?
Cheers again, and sorry for the basic questions!
Mark.
[Edited on 23/11/10 by Tiger Super Six]
Mark
Tiger Avon
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redeye
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| posted on 23/11/10 at 03:26 PM |
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Mark
In the process of swapping my Pinto for a Duratec Also
Make sure you have a good read of Flakmonkey's thread, and check out his website too, its very informative and should answer most the questions
you have, I know its helped me a lot.
I havent got very far with the install yet as I only picked my engine up last weekend, but have spent the last few days reading through old threads on
duratec installs, Stuart_B also rebuilt a Duratec but didnt install in the end because of insurance issues, I think hes too young.
anyway, to try and answer your questions, the Egr ports are on three sides of the engine, there is one on the back under the coil pack (this is where
the actual EGR valve would have been) as you have said, one on the exhaust side, which should be blocked and one on the inlet side, you can see that
big-vee-twin's inlet manifold extends to one side to block this one off.
Hope this helps
Patrick
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big-vee-twin
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| posted on 23/11/10 at 03:27 PM |
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The EGR allows a proportion of the exhaust gas to recycle into the inlet to be burnt again, this improves emmissions. On the ST engine like mine it
was blanked off at the factory because improvements were made to the ecu software that did the same, as re-circulating reduced performance.
So the valve fits on the back of the head when it opens it allows exhaust gas to pass from exhaust side to inlet side, you will see that my inlet
manifold - supplied by Fastdan on here by the way, blanks the inlet side of the egr setup.
The exhaust manifold will cover the other side.
Duratec Engine is fitted, MS2 Extra V3 is assembled and tested, engine running, car now built. IVA passed 26/02/2016
http://www.triangleltd.com
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flak monkey
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| posted on 23/11/10 at 03:32 PM |
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There is a PCV in the crank case breater yes, and you do need to remove it!
Unclip the elbow and then look into the end thats normally inside the crank case. You'll see the valve arrangement.
Basically drill out the end of the elbow and the balls and spring will fall out.
Make sure you do this as otherwise you'll have problems with excessive crank case pressure.
David
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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Tiger Super Six
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| posted on 23/11/10 at 03:32 PM |
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Cheers for the replies chaps, I have also read as many threads as I can on Duratec installs but being an engine numpty and trying to learn I want to
double check that my understanding from reading these things is correct.
Cheers again.
Mark
Tiger Avon
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redeye
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| posted on 23/11/10 at 03:53 PM |
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Ive actually got a question about the Duratec too
Ive been reading that the duratec can have problems with the bottom end
My engine should have apparently done 57k so im hoping it will be ok, but Id like to check it anyway
Whats the easiest way to check if there are any bottom end problems without taking the engine completely apart, will i be able to see any problems by
jus taking the sump off and inspecting everything, or will It not be possible not know until I take it apart.
I have about a week left on a 60 day warranty from the guy I bought it off so if im to find something wrong with the engine id rather do it sooner
rather than later, and then at least I stand a chance of gettin my money back.
Thanks
Patrick
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FASTdan
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| posted on 23/11/10 at 03:57 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
There is a PCV in the crank case breater yes, and you do need to remove it!
Unclip the elbow and then look into the end thats normally inside the crank case. You'll see the valve arrangement.
Basically drill out the end of the elbow and the balls and spring will fall out.
Make sure you do this as otherwise you'll have problems with excessive crank case pressure.
David
Hmm whoops, we didnt do this. Don't think. We suffer too much pressure though? What is the valves function as standard?
NEW danST WEBSITE NOW LIVE! Bike carbs, throttle bodies and more......
http://www.danstengineering.co.uk/
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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beaver34
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| posted on 23/11/10 at 03:58 PM |
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why do you remove the pcv?
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Tiger Super Six
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| posted on 23/11/10 at 04:08 PM |
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The PCV valve in the pinto works of negative pressure or something which moves the ball bearing to allow the gases to escape. When using a catch tank
you remove the obstruction so that the gases can get into the catch tank. Without it removed the pressure just builds - Well that's what I
understood on the pinto and I guess it works the same.
Mark
Tiger Avon
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flak monkey
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| posted on 23/11/10 at 04:09 PM |
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You need to remove it if its not connected back into the inlet as it wont open unless it sees a vacuum so pressure will build up inside your crank
case.
Mine seemed to be ok with it still fitted, but in looking for another problem, I found that one.
If its just connected to a catch tank you definately need to remove the valve from the elbow.
WRT the bottom end, you may be able to see if there is a problem by removing the sump (you need to swap it anyway!) and then lifting each big end cap
off in turn. I would suggest replacing the bearings with heavy duty ones as a matter of course anyway as they are only £50 for a set. A lot easier
before the engine is fitted!
David
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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RazMan
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| posted on 23/11/10 at 11:30 PM |
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I was under the impression that the PCV Valve worked by venting positive pressure from the crankcase AND/OR by the vacuum from the inlet. The valve
itself closes when the vacuum is low (when idling) to prevent mixture problems, however it should still work without a vacuum as it is actuated by the
crankcase pressure. With the valve removed you might be letting oil mist out of the engine uneccessarily..... or have I got it wrong?
I left my valve intact and connected a pipe to a catch can along with the cam covers. I have been running like this for 4 years with no problems.
[Edited on 23-11-10 by RazMan]
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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flak monkey
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| posted on 24/11/10 at 07:56 AM |
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Vac is high at idle and cruise on a normal engine with a single throttle body. Zero vac on acceleration.
Normally you will still end up with excessive crank case pressure, (there shouldnt be any positive pressure), before the valve opens.
Try blowing through one and you'll see how much it takes to open it.
On older engines, like the pinto, that pressure was enough to cause oil leaks from various seals. It probably isnt enough on newer engines.
On an engine where its not connected to the inlet manifold you should definately remove its innards or fit a straight through elbow/connector.
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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redeye
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| posted on 24/11/10 at 10:50 AM |
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Hi Flak
I removed my sump last night to inspect the bottom end.
Everything looks to be in order, nothing out of place and no nast bits in the bottom of the sump.
I plan on stripping the engine and giving it a good cleaning and decoke then a complete rebuild with arp conrod bolts and new burton big end
bearings
Id like to get the engine looking as new as possible, do you have any advice on the best way to polish these aluminium lumps up? it it worth painting
it?, Id prefer a natural aluminium look like you have with your engine.
There is also a build up of dirt around the head gasket, is this something to worry about? Ill obviously change the head gasket when I rebuild the
engine anyway but just thought id check.
 
Duratec 5
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flak monkey
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| posted on 24/11/10 at 11:15 AM |
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Looks pretty normal to me. The head gaskets protrude from the block and provide a ledge for crap to collect on.
To clean it just use Cillit Bang and a stiff paint brush. Make sure you wash it off with plenty of water though. Dont bother painting it.
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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Stuart_B
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| posted on 24/11/10 at 06:07 PM |
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as david said, i just used engine degreaser (gunk) with a brush, and cleaned my up and washed off.
then took it to bits and rebuilt.
stuart
black mk indy, 1.6pinto on cbr600 bike carb's.
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redeye
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| posted on 24/11/10 at 07:14 PM |
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Thanks for the advice guys
But im talkin more about the corrosion of the aluminium, Ive no problems getting rid of the dirt as Ive cleaned a few engines in the past.
The block has a very rough correded like texture to it, just wondered if theres any sure fire method of taking it back to how it should be, Ive
thought about using a wire brush, but not sure if this is a good idea or not as i dont want to paint it.
is bead blasting a possible option?
patrick
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flak monkey
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| posted on 24/11/10 at 07:38 PM |
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Its just the cast finish, not corrosion 
If its powdery corrosion it will come off when you clean it with a stiff brush.
You could have it soda blasted. Dont ever get an engine blasted with any sort of grit, including bead.
[Edited on 24/11/10 by flak monkey]
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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Nitrogeno25
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| posted on 23/11/11 at 12:34 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
You need to remove it if its not connected back into the inlet as it wont open unless it sees a vacuum so pressure will build up inside your crank
case.
Mine seemed to be ok with it still fitted, but in looking for another problem, I found that one.
If its just connected to a catch tank you definately need to remove the valve from the elbow.
WRT the bottom end, you may be able to see if there is a problem by removing the sump (you need to swap it anyway!) and then lifting each big end cap
off in turn. I would suggest replacing the bearings with heavy duty ones as a matter of course anyway as they are only £50 for a set. A lot easier
before the engine is fitted!
David
Hi, I'm trying to understand why do we need to remove the PCV.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but at idle (high vaccum in the intake) the PCV will open and flow the gases from the crank case, but at high load,
there's no vaccum but the pressure in the cranck is higher (thinking at WOT). Will the PCV open in that situation?
Maybe the vaccum at idle and the high cranck case pressure at high load is what keep the valve almost always open?
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atm92484
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| posted on 23/11/11 at 02:14 PM |
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I've never had a Duratec apart so this is likely a dumb question - with the PCV still installed, will the breather on the top of the valve cover
be enough to vent the crankcase?
-Andrew
Build Log
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Doofus
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| posted on 23/11/11 at 06:21 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by atm92484
I've never had a Duratec apart so this is likely a dumb question - with the PCV still installed, will the breather on the top of the valve cover
be enough to vent the crankcase?
Yes, the oil ways are big enough, from the head, to let gasses flow in the other direction, but using them to release those gasses may be counter
productive when you really want them to let oil back to the sump. The air is going in the opposite direction to the oil.
The one way valve in the block only takes a few psi to open it. You can blow it open but it tastes bloody awful
Only reason I can see for removing it is to let oil drain back to the sump when you connect a catch tank instead of a manifold. With a catch tank
there is no suck to clear the pipe.
It would have been a flame trap in the original set-up too.
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pjay
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| posted on 23/11/11 at 08:09 PM |
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Can vouch for flak monkey's advice on removing valve part of PCV - had a small oil leak which cleared up when I sorted this.
Redeye the aluminium corrosion is a real pain. I use GT85 generously sprayed and allow to 'dry'.
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