froggy
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| posted on 16/3/11 at 10:32 PM |
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mighty twincharged kitten
after eight years and two builds its time for a change so going from bec to cec
evo 1
single tl1000s with a 50hp shot of nitrous
evo 2
wide track and bigger brakes
evo 3
twin tl1000s with progressive nitrous system making 210whp and an extra 100hp of nitrous for drag and general hooning .
martin keenan did the bulk of the build and chris mason wired it .
no issues with the build but the constant maintenance and noise issues got really tiresome as well as awful fuel economy it was time for a change .
doesnt look much but this little sleeper makes 485hp and 470lb/ft on a bone stock 2.0 engine ,no fancy head gasket just bolted a big holset truck
turbo 630cc injectors and a 3 bar map sensor and i have run this for nearly 2 years with no issues apart from destroying a few gearboxes ,the downside
is it takes a bit of waking up so the power is from 3500-7000rpm .i have never known a stock engine take so much abuse without complaining and for the
money i think the saab 204 takes some beating going from 150hp to nearly 500hp with no mods so it makes sense to make better use of it and stick it in
the back of the kitten
that leaves a big hole up to 3500rpm so looked into adding a supercharger after the turbo to give good response low down and get the turbo spooled up
around 3000rpm
supercharger is from a 2007 slk merk and is an eaton m62 which on the pulley ratio will make 6psi with the turbo making 14psi compounds the boost to
24psi which is around 450hp and on paper should be making 300lb/ft at 3000rpm and hold 350-400lbft all the way to 6500rpm .
an air to air intercooler goes between the turbo and supercharger then into a chargecooler before the throttle body .
my dilemma now is do i go for bigger wheels as i love the handling on the 13" wheels and will have some issues making room in the footwells to
accomodate bigger rims ,i didnt have brake issues with the twin tl engines but im looking at twice the power and nearly three times the torque so
brakes could be a big issue
[Edited on 16/3/11 by froggy]
[IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/froggy_0[IMG]
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mrwibble
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| posted on 16/3/11 at 10:41 PM |
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well that looks like great fun  . somewhat confused by the seemingly random saab, is that just a runabout while the project is the... err... is that
a reliant van?
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tony-devon
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| posted on 16/3/11 at 10:44 PM |
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ha ha, you would get on with Ian an absoulute treat
not quite in your league, but a nutter all the same
N/A Cosworth, accralite pistons, kent L1/BD3 cams, twin 45's, 250bhp + N2O
Fitted in a.....Reliant Kitten (modified a lot!). 11.88@114.47
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g_sNPbKQbM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj0woo_Nc8M
theres loads of footage of that lil yellow car on youtube always makes me smile, hes a clever bloke, but got a very dry sense of humour, never know if
he really is taking the wee or joking LOL
[Edited on 16/3/11 by tony-devon]
heavy is good, heavy is reliable, and if it breaks, hit them with it
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froggy
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| posted on 16/3/11 at 10:52 PM |
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i did a photo shoot with ian a couple of years back but we never managed to meet up for a head to head drag race while i had the twin tl 1000,s in
although i was running consistent 11.5 1/4mile .
the saab is where ive pinched the engine from and yes it was a kitten van but now will be a saloon as i need to let a lot of heat out of the rear and
get easy access to see whats going on or rather falling off
thats the dyno run from the 2.0 saab lump thats now in the back of the kitten , ive added a quaife atb to the saab gearbox
[IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/froggy_0[IMG]
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tony-devon
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| posted on 16/3/11 at 10:55 PM |
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thought you would know him, you nutters all together LOL
was that the PPC feature and shoot,
I just cant help but smile when that car starts, its mental and handles like its on rails
yours must be brain mushing
heavy is good, heavy is reliable, and if it breaks, hit them with it
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froggy
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| posted on 16/3/11 at 11:04 PM |
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im hoping this will be the last time i re build the kitten as im taking a leaf out of ians book and adding some creature comforts like padded seats
and decent sound insulation
there was a lot of metalwork holding the twin bike engines together so i dont think the new drivetrain will add a lot of weight so i should still be
around the 750kg mark when its finished
[IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/froggy_0[IMG]
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ashg
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| posted on 16/3/11 at 11:50 PM |
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very well done on the engine choice. the b204 rocks
Great minds think alike. I been pottering away on this all winter
Anything With Tits or Wheels Will cost you MONEY!!
Haynes Roadster (Finished)
Exocet (Finished & Sold)
New Project (Started)
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 17/3/11 at 12:34 AM |
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Not wishing to be contrary, but how are you getting 450hp from 630cc injectors? Monster fuel pressure?
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kb58
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| posted on 17/3/11 at 01:33 AM |
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Good question. That usually takes 750 - 1000 cc injectors.
Mid-engine Locost - http://www.midlana.com
And the book - http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/midlana/paperback/product-21330662.html
Kimini - a tube-frame, carbon shell, Honda Prelude VTEC mid-engine Mini: http://www.kimini.com
And its book -
http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/kimini-how-to-design-and-build-a-mid-engine-sports-car-from-scratch/paperback/product-4858803.html
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ashg
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| posted on 17/3/11 at 07:22 AM |
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it could be done running batch fire as you get an extra pulse on the exhaust stroke. the saab being a boosted engine doesn't have much overlap
on the cams so its quite possible.
Anything With Tits or Wheels Will cost you MONEY!!
Haynes Roadster (Finished)
Exocet (Finished & Sold)
New Project (Started)
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MakeEverything
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| posted on 17/3/11 at 07:50 AM |
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Quality. Would love a go in that.
Kindest Regards,
Richard.
...You can make it foolProof, but youll never make it Idiot Proof!...
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 17/3/11 at 09:43 AM |
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what a great project I however would not love a ride in it as it's too scary 
Fame is when your old car is plastered all over the internet
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froggy
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| posted on 17/3/11 at 03:31 PM |
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The 630 cc injectors are good for just over 500hp at. 2.5 bar pressure . These siemens deka 630cc are popular with lots of turbo engines as they still
have good control low dow. I'm running 750cc in the kitten to give me some headroom if I want to go over 550hp but I'm pretty sure 450hp
will be plenty.
It always felt like it could handle more power when I had the twin bike engines but that was down to the lack of torque low down although it still
went well peak torque was 170lb/ft at 5500rpm will be closer to 450lb/ft with the Saab lump .
I didn't buy kurts book until the twin engined build was done so I can copy a lot of ideas from kimini , the main one is using a saloon rear end
instead of the van body .
[IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/froggy_0[IMG]
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froggy
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| posted on 24/3/11 at 07:23 PM |
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bit more progress today ,finally got the gearchange right and was worth the effort to re-make the brackets a couple of times .
the exhaust is as far as i can go until i figure out the design for the silencer ,marathon pipework session tomorrow getting all the boost pipe runs
sorted with as little silicone as i can get away with
[IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/froggy_0[IMG]
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cheapracer
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 posted on 30/3/11 at 05:03 PM |
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That is awesome!
Like the 5 link DeDion too
It's coming....
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bi22le
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| posted on 30/3/11 at 05:33 PM |
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Very nice. That will have some silly BHP \ tonne figure, Im sure you have worked it out.
Around the 500 mark I guess.
Track days ARE the best thing since sliced bread, until I get a supercharger that is!
Please read my ring story:
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/13/viewthread.php?tid=139152&page=1
Me doing a sub 56sec lap around Brands Indy. I need a geo set up! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHksfvIGB3I
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froggy
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| posted on 30/3/11 at 09:23 PM |
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No idea about the power to weight but im more interested in the torque so il be happy with around 400hp peak even though the turbo on it's own
made 500hp on the same engine .
It should make 250 lb/ft at 2500rpm ,300 at 3000 and 400lb/ft at 3700 then hold that right up to 7000 rpm at that hp level .
Going for it with water / meth injection will see closer to 600flywheel hp
[IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/froggy_0[IMG]
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T66
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| posted on 30/3/11 at 09:49 PM |
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dogs knob !!!!!
Love it
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 2/4/11 at 10:46 AM |
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You said you are using the supercharger to blow into the turbo.
Normal practice is to do it the other way, with a simple mechanical diverter to bypass the super when the turbo exceeds the blower pressure.
This system has been in use on Detroit diesels since the second war or more. I've seen your system tried on race boat engines, and it can have
problems with the seals on the turbo. When reverted to the reverse, no problems.
Unless you're going to run the engine like this hard for extended periods, then you'll probably be OK. Hope so.
Cheers,
Nev.
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froggy
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| posted on 2/4/11 at 04:15 PM |
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i didnt make it clear but the holset blows into the supercharger .the hardware is good for 600+hp but charge air temps will be the limiting factor .
300whp will be ample in a light car so 400fly hp should be repeatable if the intercooling and inlet temps can be kept under control .
water/meth injection is another option but id be happier not to have to use it if possible
[IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/froggy_0[IMG]
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 4/4/11 at 09:42 AM |
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I got to say I still don't understand how you're supposing you can extract 450hp from that size of injector, as above, and as far as
I'm aware it's jus not possible at stock fuel pressures - fuel flow at 100% doesn't deliver enough energy in the form of chemicals
to create that power? You need 750+cc/min per port to get that, and that's with them locked open?
http://www.injector.com/injectorselection.php
Batch fire doesn't mean you're doing 2 squirts per cycle, it just means you're firing all at the same time. If you run 2 squirts per
cycle you'll be running into problems at high RPM due to the injection pulsewidth sum being longer than a cycle, two pulses per cycle makes no
sense at all as you just add more dead time (pintle movement) - you might as well just open once and for longer.
Still, interesting project, I'm enjoying the details.
[Edited on 4/4/11 by coyoteboy]
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froggy
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| posted on 4/4/11 at 10:56 AM |
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Go on uk saabs and there are a few cars making near to 500 hp on the deka 630 cc injectors . The dyno from my 9k showing 486hp is on 630cc injectors
and guys in the states have pushed them to 430 whp on pump fuel.
I'm the wrong guy to prove they can make 500 hp but I've had 10hp either side of 500hp from 3 different dyno,s
I'm going up to 750cc for the kitten but injector dc was just under 90% on the 630,
Have a search on the siemens 630 deka injectors for flw rates
[IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/froggy_0[IMG]
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 4/4/11 at 11:27 AM |
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All the posts I just read on uk saabs suggested 275-300 is about the limit on the 630s? Many suggesting raising the fuel pressure with a better pump
and adjustable FPR to eek a little more out?
<edit>
I've just been reading further and it seems those claiming higher are doubling the fuel pressure. Explains it!
[Edited on 4/4/11 by coyoteboy]
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froggy
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| posted on 4/4/11 at 11:47 AM |
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I'm using a walbro pump at stock pressure , look at siemens site the 630,s will make 100whp per cylinder comfortably.
The standard aero injectors will support 300 hp as I've done it a few times
[IMG]http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/froggy_0[IMG]
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 4/4/11 at 12:24 PM |
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I'm assuming something odd is happening then because that's different to every other car and set of injectors I've ever met and
every tuner I've ever spoken to. It's a pretty standard accepted requirement to fit SARD 800cc injectors to get 450hp from a 2 litre 4 cyl
in just about every other car, using stock fuel pressure. Every injector calculator available will place 750cc injectors at their limits at 450hp, so
how are these any different? By definition a specified fuel flow limits the power throughput (though clearly at higher pressures you could put much
more power through them, but you specify stock pressure which is 43psi at which the 630cc rating is given?).
I'm genuinely interested as I've been considering an adjustable rising rate FPR to compensate for my tiny 440cc injectors as it is.
[Edited on 4/4/11 by coyoteboy]
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