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Author: Subject: Found this to be a very interesting read....
Jon Ison

posted on 13/2/05 at 12:52 AM Reply With Quote
Found this to be a very interesting read....

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?p=1&f=23&t=154173&h=0






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mattplace

posted on 13/2/05 at 01:20 AM Reply With Quote
interesting.
shame they didn't really get to the bottom of it.
i hardly fill up in supermarkets because of stories i've heard but my father always fils up in tesco's (to get extra tesco points -sad b%*tard!) and has had a few engine management probs with his new bmw.

unless i have to fill up in a supermarket, i wont.

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wilkingj

posted on 13/2/05 at 07:13 AM Reply With Quote
Right... OK its a Diesel Tale...

<Soapbox Mode=1>
I have over 80,000 miles of data on this.
I fitted a brand new factory supplied Diesel engine to my Landrover 10 years ago.
Like the Sad Git that I am, I can tell you every litre that has passed through the tank.

I want you to consider this carefully.
Yes the basic fuels are simmilar, and the addatives make the difference. This much I definately agree with.

However, With Shell Diesel I get on average between 1.2 and 2.4 Mpg MORE.
Now whilst that does not sound much... Here comes the rub..
At 14p per Mile (25mpg), that equates to between 17p and 33p per gallon LESS (depending on driving style etc).
Now if you see fuel at 1p per Litre less (4.5p per gallon) You often go for it.
Now Shell is nearly always 1p per litre more than most other fuels, so the actual saving is more in the region of 10-28p per gallon.

For all those Diesel Demons out there this is a good bit of info.
I have got the records, and did not believe it untill I had done about 20K miles.
I dont always fill up this Shell, but the shell garage is just round the corner from work, and this is how I started to notice the difference.
Tesco Diesel is OK, but I get the lower mileage from it, als it seems not to run as smoothly. Very cheap fuel Jet etc is simmilar

The Grit mentioned in the article is very important. as this grit is sandblasting the injector nozzles as it passes through, (and the pump / compressor section).
This also applies to Petrol engines, but not as much as diesel engines, as the pressures are very different.
How many of you dont let the tank get very low, so you dont stir up the muck in the bottom of the tank?... Ever thought where it comes from? Its the grit etc, that settles when you are parked up.

I also find that Esso is a pretty good second choice as well.
As I understood it, a lot of the supermarket fuel is bought direct off the Dutch market.

Finally...The Low, and Ultra Low Sulphur is not such a good thing (OK for lower particulates). I understand the Sulphur is a partial lubricant, and is important. I had to have an Injector pump rebuild about 20K miles ago.
Now I did all the Labour removing and refitting etc, and took the pump to the local specialist, and it cost me £740 including parts.
A new pump from Land Rover is over £2,000. (I checked!) A factory recon pump is £600, but they could not get me one, I waited and chased my local Franschised LR Dealer every couple of days for over a month. (They love me really!)

So there we have it.. and I can back this with my personal records.
</Soapbox Mode=0>


[Edited on 13/2/2005 by wilkingj]





1. The point of a journey is not to arrive.
2. Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Best Regards
Geoff
http://www.v8viento.co.uk

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Guinness

posted on 13/2/05 at 07:22 AM Reply With Quote
I saw this on the SBD website, about half way down the index, "Pump Fuels!".

SBD Link

"So although our results cannot be claimed to be conclusive, we recommend that if you are to use pump fuel, you try and purchase it from a petrol station that has a regular turn round, therefore making sure the fuel is as fresh as possible. We advise the use of an octane booster as well, to help maintain the octane level of the fuel (we are not advising you to use the octane booster to increase your octane level, more to try and sustain the octane level that you require as a minimum, due to the deterioration rate of the fuel)."

So that would suggest that a supermarket, which must be turning over tons of fuel, might be better than a high spec fuel from a Shell/BP that doesn't get much custom, i.e. perhaps on a backroad, or not much call for Optimax etc?

Personally I run a TDi on the road, at about 50k p/a, filling up at BP because its the first one I come to out the door.

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gazza285

posted on 13/2/05 at 09:36 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by wilkingj
The Grit mentioned in the article is very important. as this grit is sandblasting the injector nozzles as it passes through, (and the pump / compressor section).
This also applies to Petrol engines, but not as much as diesel engines, as the pressures are very different.

[Edited on 13/2/2005 by wilkingj]


Can't speak for your motors but every diesel I've had had a fine particulate fuel filter on it.

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britishtrident

posted on 13/2/05 at 09:39 AM Reply With Quote
I stopped buy petrol from Sainsbury I found a couple of batches that cause very rough running in my Rovers. Safeway fuel has always been fine but I don't use it exclusively.
As for diesel the problem of hard particles from low quality fuel in diesel injectors has been a problem since the mid 70s it is I was told problem caused durring the cracking process at the refinery.

Supermarkets generally buy fuel in bulk from eastern europe ----

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britishtrident

posted on 13/2/05 at 09:44 AM Reply With Quote
SUL won't do any harm it is just not all engines can take advantage of it --- generally if the engine has a knock sensor the higher octane rating of SUL might be an advantage -- even then it only really works to full advantage if it was used exclusively.
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britishtrident

posted on 13/2/05 at 09:46 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gazza285
quote:
Originally posted by wilkingj
The Grit mentioned in the article is very important. as this grit is sandblasting the injector nozzles as it passes through, (and the pump / compressor section).
This also applies to Petrol engines, but not as much as diesel engines, as the pressures are very different.

[Edited on 13/2/2005 by wilkingj]


Can't speak for your motors but every diesel I've had had a fine particulate fuel filter on it.


Catalytic fines are needle shaped and can pass right through most filters.

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Hellfire

posted on 13/2/05 at 10:08 AM Reply With Quote
Geoff,

I would recommend compilation of a graph using Excel to highlight the differences of individual fuels. Should be easy enough to do...






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mangogrooveworkshop

posted on 13/2/05 at 10:10 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
case study - supermarket petrol pricing

Predatory pricing on the supermarket petrol forecourts

This case study outlines how Safeway launched a petrol price war in 2002 to boost grocery market share.

Introduction

In June 2002, Safeway used a predatory pricing strategy for the sale of petrol from its supermarket garages in an attempt to increase its share of the UK grocery market. The strategy stunned competitors – and angered non-supermarket petrol retailers.

The Safeway petrol price offer

Safeway’s offer to the consumer comprised a price reduction on fuel purchases based on the amount customers had spent on groceries at its stores each visit.

Customers received 2p off a litre if they spent £25, 5p for £50, 12p for £100 and 20p for £150. The maximum 20p discount equated to a saving of £10 a week for the driver of an average family car.

The maximum 20p price reduction brought the price of a litre of petrol at Safeway down to 53p. This meant customers only had to pay enough to cover duty and VAT.

Safeway was effectively giving its petrol away in an effort to increase its share of the grocery market, which stood at around 10 per cent.

On the first day of the price promotion, fuel sales at Safeway's 180 petrol stations rose by 25 per cent.

Competitor response

Asda, which controls 15.6 per cent of the grocery market, was the only supermarket-based petrol retailer to react to Safeway's promotion. It swiftly cut its prices by 0.8p a litre.

Sainsbury's and Tesco, with 16.6 per cent and 26 per cent of the grocery market respectively, refused to be drawn into a fuel price war. They maintained their existing pricing strategies.

Both retailers guarantee to match the cheapest petrol prices within a three to four mile radius of their stores, but exclude promotional offers from this pledge. Sainsbury's introduced a petrol discount scheme in 1998, but the maximum discount offered is 4p a litre - awarded when customers spend £100.

Petrol retailers, rather than supermarkets, had the most to lose from Safeway's offer. Profit margins on petrol tend to be less than 4p a litre and, unlike supermarkets, petrol retailers are not able to fund losses through other activities.

The impact on the overall petrol retail market was softened by the comparatively small number of Safeway petrol stations. Large petrol companies such as Shell and Texaco each have more than 1,000 stations throughout the UK.

Reasons behind the strategy

Why would Safeway decide to instigate a price war of this kind? How frequent are price wars and do they work?

Price wars are not a new idea. For example, daily newspapers often engage in them – with varying degrees of success.

Price wars, of varying intensity, are fought in every market. Price-cutting is often seen as a way to eliminate smaller competitors, grab market share and boost sales. But any temporary increase in sales is not necessarily sustained after normal pricing is resumed.

What was the motivation behind Safeway’s decision? A Safeway marketing spokesman claimed that:

"We are aiming to drive sales and increase individuals' spend. The fuel promotion will encourage customers to increase their current spending levels from the average £80 a basket, and may also pull in customers who usually shop with competitors If the promotion generates high levels of sales it will fund itself, so we could keep it going for some time. But it is a promotion."

Retail analysts say that pricing strategies like Safeway's petrol promotion can be an effective way of gaining market share. To be successful, however, they must be

• Well-timed

• Well-planned, and

• Well-executed

According to a retail analyst:

“Price can make customers switch temporarily to a competitor, but it is not enough to make them stay. If price was the only factor grocery shoppers considered, then Aldi would win every time - yet the budget chain has a UK market share of just 1.7 per cent. "

Price-cutting may bring people in the door, but you cannot keep customers on price alone. Customer loyalty has to be earned, not bought. There is also a risk that price-cutting can devalue a brand

Price, then, can be an effective marketing tool - but it must be combined with a thorough strategy incorporating quality, service and customer retention. Implemented properly, price-cutting has the potential to bring down competitors and boost sales. Done badly, it can be a destructive waste of time and money.





I worked at the local refinery when I was still doing electrical work a few years back.
We asked the question about this very subject and the answer was...The fuel product is all the same just the additive package is differant. When I worked at a BP plant in South Africa they told me the same story but pointed out that fuel used at the higher altitudes in South Africa was SASOL which was derived from coal!
So the story has been the same from both hemispheres. Up here in Scotland we only have one refinery so it aint coming from anywhere else. Cast your minds back to the blockade supermarkets ran out just like anywhere else. And as one of the guys said that the petrol for supers comes from refinery X or Y.....Thats not true cause the further you transport it the more costly it becomes and the supersmarkets would not have that in the agressive price wars they wage. my ten cents

Its down to those additves and petrol brand price structure. If you add the "stuff" it costs money if you dont you can sell the raw petrol for less.




Some one who has spare minute can login to shell and ask the expert @ http://www.shelloptimax.co.uk/jive3/forum.jspa?forumID=1&start=0

and give us the answer


[Edited on 13-2-05 by mangogrooveworkshop]

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wilkingj

posted on 13/2/05 at 06:52 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by wilkingj
The Grit mentioned in the article is very important. as this grit is sandblasting the injector nozzles as it passes through, (and the pump / compressor section).
This also applies to Petrol engines, but not as much as diesel engines, as the pressures are very different.

Can't speak for your motors but every diesel I've had had a fine particulate fuel filter on it.


Catalytic fines are needle shaped and can pass right through most filters.


I agree, but there are fine silicates, and microscopic bits still get through. Its gradual wear over a long time. My LR has a good fuel filter, but it wont stop every single piece, especially the teeny weeny weeny bits

Geoff





1. The point of a journey is not to arrive.
2. Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Best Regards
Geoff
http://www.v8viento.co.uk

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