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MK Roll Cage

graememk - 6/5/11 at 06:00 PM

Right I have one in kit form, what are people reasons to think it’s wrong before I weld it in?

Should I modify it first?

Constructive answers required please...

austin man - 6/5/11 at 06:08 PM

peoples resons are that they dont think it will get through scrutineering. the the double bend at the front affects its strength.

Personally Ive seen an Indy R upside down after a 100mph plus incident and multiple rolls and it stood up to the test.

Get the grinder out clean the area up and weld it in

PS what was the cost of the Kit ?

loggyboy - 6/5/11 at 06:31 PM

Without meaning to ignite another MK rollcage debate, but just to correct the above slightly, Its nothing to do with doubting its strength on anyone believing it wont do the job, Im sure its a very good cage, HOWEVER its design (of the front bars) simply does not comply with the the MSA bluebook regs for rollcages that have not had FIA certification.

Thats all I have to say.

Steve Hignett - 6/5/11 at 07:50 PM

It must be that every single scrutineer that has passed it (for the last 2 or 3 years) has been blinded by there lovely paint scheme then??? Or every single scrutineer isn't aware of this "blue book?" as you call it then???

Steve Hignett - 6/5/11 at 07:53 PM

Graeme, The only "Wrong" things from my POV are: do you have a mounting point to weld it in too? Can you weld to the required standard etc? Are you going to powder coat or paint (one being signifiantly easier than the other!) Are you going to strip the car down, or just make access to the weld points etc etc (all common sense stuff basically!!!)

austin man - 6/5/11 at 07:53 PM

hasn't Danny's car got the book

daniel mason - 6/5/11 at 08:00 PM

popcorn time! did danny not also get one of the mk builders cars passed with this cage? after everyone said it would not pass

welderman - 6/5/11 at 08:06 PM

I stopped making the MK style cages because of all the banter between some people on here. The amount of requests I get to make them each week must mean something.
I would just go for it. Get it welded in and enjoy

MikeR - 6/5/11 at 08:39 PM

I've read the MSA regs. I don't understand how it passes. Reality is it passes & has been scruiteneered via danny's car and was passed. I understand why others keep questioning it and understand the annoyance and frustration of people sick of the questioning.

So if you're going to race it under the classes mk's already race it seems to be ok. If you're going on the road its better than not having it.

Clean up the area first with a flap disk in an angle grinder, pratice on some off cuts welding with lots of amps, trial fit, double check, tack weld, check, weld fully.

Welderman, can you still bend a hoop if i pop round when i'm next at my parents? At some point I'd like to add a front hoop of my own design to my car. Just needs a straight tube bending in two places (like a rear hoop top corners but longer legs to chassis floor - if i fancy being fancy maybe with a windscreen angled bend as well) and a couple more bits for the steel between the front and rear.

(if you'd rather I can send my dad round again, he still talks about your place. He was quite impressed - i guess its the old school engineer in him surfacing).

welderman - 6/5/11 at 09:05 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MikeR
I've read the MSA regs. I don't understand how it passes. Reality is it passes & has been scruiteneered via danny's car and was passed. I understand why others keep questioning it and understand the annoyance and frustration of people sick of the questioning.

So if you're going to race it under the classes mk's already race it seems to be ok. If you're going on the road its better than not having it.

Clean up the area first with a flap disk in an angle grinder, pratice on some off cuts welding with lots of amps, trial fit, double check, tack weld, check, weld fully.

Welderman, can you still bend a hoop if i pop round when i'm next at my parents? At some point I'd like to add a front hoop of my own design to my car. Just needs a straight tube bending in two places (like a rear hoop top corners but longer legs to chassis floor - if i fancy being fancy maybe with a windscreen angled bend as well) and a couple more bits for the steel between the front and rear.

(if you'd rather I can send my dad round again, he still talks about your place. He was quite impressed - i guess its the old school engineer in him surfacing).

You can pop in whenever mate. Chuffed your dad was impressed lol. Just let me know when

Joe

graememk - 6/5/11 at 09:21 PM

its just for road use, and want to make the woman feel safer in the passenger seat.

DRC INDY 7 - 6/5/11 at 09:25 PM

She will be more than safe with that roll cage ignore all the 5 finger widows on here that just like to cause trouble

graememk - 6/5/11 at 09:55 PM

dont mnr's have the same double bend ?

loggyboy - 7/5/11 at 03:57 AM

quote:
Originally posted by graememk
dont mnr's have the same double bend ?

yes, but MNR did post up some test images that they claimed showed they had undergone tests and had approval. However the test did not show any certfication, just image results of tests that had been done. Matt (procomp) rightly stated, that any FIA tested/approved cage will have a sticker of conformity from the manufacturer of the cage.

[Edited on 7/5/11 by loggyboy]

TimC - 7/5/11 at 06:34 AM

If someone wanders around a club paddock where there are kit cars competing, you'll see cages that strictly don't comply. There are a few issues, I believe including, (i) that the regs are so focussed on tin-tops/the steel monocoque design and; (ii) a lack of clarity about the difference between sports cars and sports racing cars - anyone want to explain which one of these 'kits' fall into these days? Also, (iii) in an environment where a car does not have to have a MSA Logbook, how do you prove (in a legally robust way) that a chassis was produced after a certain rule changed i.e. >31/12/04/? Even then, the rules talk about a cage/bar being approved - it doesn't explicitly state that its that particular roll bar/chassis - I'm no legal eagle but the blue book is full of potential loop-holes. Perhaps more importantly than this however, (iv) in formulas where only the rear hoop diagonal and backstays are mandatory, does it make sense to turn away a car with a less-than-perfect front hoop, when they could come back the following week having cut it out and be compliant? That's an obvious answer surely?

It therefore seems that racers and 'scrutes' alike are applying their own interpretation - a 'common-sense' approach even. This is good in many respects, except when one official's view differs to that of others and someone is not given a ticket to race. While I understand some of the frustration around the ongoing criticism, I also feel for those competitors and suppliers who bust-a-ball to produce a by-the-book cage - its often not the easy option. Also, consider what happens if someone is killed and the cage is found to not meet the regs - god help the club officials; they may have just been trying to help by applying their 'common sense approach', but they're now in court potentially facing claims from the deceased's family that their incompetence in assessing the ROPS contributed to the driver's death.

From my own perspective, the dash-dodger double bend makes zero-sense to me so I wouldn't use such a front hoop on one of my cars.

[Edited on 7/5/11 by TimC]

coozer - 7/5/11 at 08:30 AM

quote:
Originally posted by graememk
its just for road use, and want to make the woman feel safer in the passenger seat.

Go for it, don't worry, take no notice of the doubters as long as your not racing. What I don't understand is all the talk of it not comply with the regs. So, you takes it off and that leaves the original roll bar which now complies!

Surely, even with te double bend its better than not having it, even, if like mine, its got a double bend and is made out of erw....

lewis - 7/5/11 at 09:16 AM

yawn,the post was not even about double bends,did he mention he was racing in a championship? no he asked what was the best method of fitting a kit form cage.

im in the process of fitting my mk design rollcage in kit form WITH A DOUBLE BEND!!! and will hopefully have it welded in by the end of the weekend so will post pictures of how i did it for you.

loggyboy - 7/5/11 at 10:00 AM

I know I said I was only posting one comment back at the begining of this thread but i cant keep it to that one post now!

quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
popcorn time! did danny not also get one of the mk builders cars passed with this cage? after everyone said it would not pass

You're confusing getting a log book with passing scrutineering, although the logbook means all things like cages, fire extinguishers etc have been checked by a registered scrutineer, that it conforms to the blue book, each car still needs to pass scrutineering for each race.

This whole issue stems back to Matt from Procomp stating that he had seen MK and MNRs with the double bend refused to race by scrutineers at 750mc events. So unless Matt got it wrong, somewhere, somewhen there has or is an issue with having a double bend for race cars.

However, for clarity, if this car is a roadcar only then there is 100% no issues with having a cage mased around MKs orginal design!.
I would add though, that if safety is your concern you should also add helmets to your list if you havent already. As allthough a cage makes a nice safety shell for occupants, it adds an extra danger of being hit in an accident by occupants heads.

quote:
Originally posted by lewis
yawn,the post was not even about double bends,did he mention he was racing in a championship? no he asked what was the best method of fitting a kit form cage.

I think almost all of the replies have been constructive so far. The OP question was answered within about 2 posts!

brookie - 7/5/11 at 10:44 AM

quote:
Originally posted by graememk
its just for road use, and want to make the woman feel safer in the passenger seat.

sell it me

brookie - 7/5/11 at 10:46 AM

quote:
Originally posted by welderman
I stopped making the MK style cages because of all the banter between some people on here.

i was going to have 1 off u and fit it over the winter dam

adithorp - 7/5/11 at 11:06 AM

quote:
Originally posted by lewis
yawn,the post was not even about double bends,did he mention he was racing in a championship? no he asked what was the best method of fitting a kit form cage.

im in the process of fitting my mk design rollcage in kit form WITH A DOUBLE BEND!!! and will hopefully have it welded in by the end of the weekend so will post pictures of how i did it for you.

He asked... "...what are people reasons to think it’s wrong before I weld it in?

Should I modify it first?"

Then later... "dont mnr's have the same double bend ?"

The answers are to those questions as far as I can see. Can't see the OP asking how to fit it. Has he edited that bit?

For what it's worth... For the road, having seen the MK roll at Oulton, I'd be happy to use it. Whether the wife feels safe will be more to do with use of the right foot I'd guess.

lotusmadandy - 7/5/11 at 11:14 AM

well,i have recently fitted one with a 'double bend' in my indy and if
nothing else it makes feel safer in my car.

As i dont have any intentions of competing in any race series,i couldnt care less
if it is approved or not.

Go for it,it looks great when fitted

Andy

welderman - 7/5/11 at 12:38 PM

quote:
Originally posted by brookie

quote:
Originally posted by welderman
I stopped making the MK style cages because of all the banter between some people on here.

i was going to have 1 off u and fit it over the winter dam

Maybe I should come out of retirement !

Send me a u2u

Craigman9 - 7/5/11 at 04:19 PM

quote:
Originally posted by lotusmadandy
well,i have recently fitted one with a 'double bend' in my indy and if
nothing else it makes feel safer in my car.

As i dont have any intentions of competing in any race series,i couldnt care less
if it is approved or not.

Go for it,it looks great when fitted

Andy

Agreed

Craig

Pezza - 7/5/11 at 04:31 PM

I made up some plates and welded them in to take the front legs.

It's a welderman jobby I bought off some chap from here, and it's great

brookie - 7/5/11 at 06:11 PM

have u got any more photos of it fitted m8

welderman - 7/5/11 at 06:28 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Pezza
I made up some plates and welded them in to take the front legs.

It's a welderman jobby I bought off some chap from here, and it's great

Looks like a good job and you won't get sore knees lol

Pezza - 7/5/11 at 08:58 PM

quote:
Originally posted by brookie
have u got any more photos of it fitted m8

A couple more i've got, i'll have some more soon, got the sides and rear panels on this weekend and the rear lights, so it's starting to look like a bit like a car now lol

AdrianH - 7/5/11 at 09:30 PM

I feel compelled to ask a few questions. The Roll cage sure looks good in the pictures above and I can now see what is meant by the double bend.

I am also considering a roll cage on a second Haynes Roadster car I am in the process of building, and again for the same reasons as the original poster, but would like to do some racing.

Anyway here is possibly where you knowledgeable ones could assist me understand more.

I have assumed our cars would be classed as Sports racing cars and as such really only need to have the rear roll bar, with a diagonal and either a single back stay if the same diameter of the main loop 48.3 mm dia 2.6mm thick as min, or, the rear stays could be reduced to 26 mm 2.6 mm thick if done with two. That additional reinforcing braces could be added?

So, if the bar loop is all that is required why does the extra front loop matter if added with double bends or not, or is it a case of once it becomes a cage it must comply?

There was an additional MSA post in January that shows an additional brace that can be used if the front has a double bend, this can be found here: Roll-bar link

Have I assumed the wrong class of car are they not Sports racing cars?

Adrian

austin man - 7/5/11 at 09:44 PM

if its under 2000 cc all that is required is the hoop so the rest is additional safety that isnt required by the regs

AdrianH - 7/5/11 at 11:09 PM

austin man I thank you.

Adrian

eddbaz - 8/5/11 at 09:53 AM

' thats are I have to say'

I wish it was

Get it welded in graeme, ignore the detractors. Are you coming to the brekkie meet next sunday at stibby cafe, going for a blat after if the weather is ok.