R1 would suit most people... simplicity of install and reliability in the application..
Make sure you get a Torque resiliant tube prop if you want the gearbox to last..
Ok so I have decided a few things now
A) Im going to get a BEC. Even though I thought a fist that there were noisy and a Bike engine in a car took a while to get my head round it?
B) Its going to be a MK or Stuart Taylor
C) Im going to buy a completed one new or second hand don’t mind
Right now I just don’t know enough about bike engines to know what one to get?
R1
Fireblade
GSX (if there called that)
Thoughts please
[Edited on 1/5/06 by Mezzz]
Their are 2 T's in Thought...
R1 would suit most people... simplicity of install and reliability in the application..
Make sure you get a Torque resiliant tube prop if you want the gearbox to last..
whats one of those props
AKA a "TRT", search it, there's been lots of mentions of them, basically a prop thats made from two tubes with rubber in between to
dissipate some of the transimission shock.
If doing it again I would have one to smooth out the transmission and give a bit of extra protection to the gearbox, but I dont currently have one and
Ive not had any gearbox problems in 4 years hard track / road use so its not absolutely essential.
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisGamlin
AKA a "TRT", search it, there's been lots of mentions of them, basically a prop thats made from two tubes with rubber in between to dissipate some of the transimission shock.
If doing it again I would have one to smooth out the transmission and give a bit of extra protection to the gearbox, but I dont currently have one and Ive not had any gearbox problems in 4 years hard track / road use so its not absolutely essential.
The best engine in a BEC is one of those how long is a bit of string style questions.
You have five basic elements to consider, and finding the perfect balance between them will come down to individual choice.
In no particular order:- Power, Cost, Age, Reliabilty, History. They are all inter-linked.
The most powerful bike engines are the Busa and the ZX12R, or even a Busa Turbo. These make big BHP, but are expensive to buy, then you try to decide
if you should spend more cash dry sumping it, baffling it or just risking it. And if it does go bang, you've got a lot of money to spend to
replace the engine. Then there are the ZZR1100 and the Blackbird, both OK, but the ZZR's will all be older engines and the 'birds have a
bit of a reputation for oil problems. Then there are the R1's which make big power, but still command a premium price. Blades and ZX9R's
seem to be falling out of favour, so they are coming down in price a bit. But they have the big advantage in that lots of people have installed them
in cars before, so you can buy parts off the shelf (exhaust manifolds and prop adaptors etc).
Then you have the left field engines, the Triumph triple and the V-Twins, the flat four Honda thing etc. Nothing wrong with them, but you'll
more than likely find you're on your own when it comes to problem solving / getting custom parts made.
If you buy a cheap engine, odds are it'll be down on power or older. If you buy a new engine, you'll pay top whack. If you buy a rare
engine, you'll pay for custom parts to be made and you'll be the guinea pig / test mule! If you go fuel injected then you can play around
with the map with a laptop, but you'll face stricter emmissions testing. If you go carbs, you'll need to consider changing jets, needles
etc.
As it is you are looking to buy a completed car, so for each car you look at the owner / builder will have already made this decision. Then it will
come down to making any decision about buying a car. Does it look right, does it drive OK, does it have the right paperwork. If those three are all
there, buy it. If any one element is missing, walk away, there will be another car along in a minute.
HTH
Mike
quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
Cant be that hard, they dont last 4 years in a bike on the track...
Could some one wright me a list of the common bike engines in order of BHP?
Right well a few posts a little off the subject
blade, cheaper well used parts fom shelf loads of users on here
r1 better engine but more£££
imho
i hear zetecs are quite good
[Edited on 1/5/06 by graememk]
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisGamlin
quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
Cant be that hard, they dont last 4 years in a bike on the track...
Touche! What you didnt mention is that they break on race bikes for entirely different reasons, on a race bike they'll rarely use the clutch so there's no wonder they go through gearboxes fairly quickly.
Although as I said previously its worthwhile having as extra protection and a slightly smoother driveline, IMO 90% of what causes gearbox failure is the nut behind the wheel and other influences such as sloppy gear linkages etc, not how hard the car is driven or whether it has a TRT.
[Edited on 1/5/06 by ChrisGamlin]
I will buy a ZX14 when it comes available
did it read it quickly..
Buy as much bhp as you can and maintain the engine/car weight as low as possible then you will have optimum performance
i also think chris that many gearbox chit comes because we don´t know good what we buy...
how we now how the box is when it arrives??? we cant look easy in it, sow i think nobody opensup his box/engine before mounting it in..to check the
status..
what i want to say is in fact you could have 2 R1 installas in the same car, but because of the history difference of the engine the results of the
box durability could be totally outline...
Tks
p.s. the TRT absorbs something of the bling....
a free cluch and a warm engine will take away another alloot of that sound..
also that bling doesn´t represent 190bhp
As a Triumph Triple user I can only but recommend them!
The Daytona 955i now kicks out 140+ BHP and the best bit, you can pick them up for £600 ish complete. With this you get 3 cyl fuel injectd engine. It
pulls in 6th from 35mph like a train and has glorious engine (intake + exhaust note).
Not chosen by many as little experience of them. All I can say is they are really quite simple and strong. Thought I destroyed on after 5 hours
hooning at Brands but was the prop centre bolt. Bought 11K replacement for £450!! all in incl throttle bodies.
Wiring is simple and no sump mods etc.. seems fine. Done 1 LeMans trip and the 2nd is next month. I used to have a CBR1000 Striker and that engine is
amazing for cost too. £500 - £600 but heavy lump.
I can easily pick up the 955i engine complete but wasn't able to lift into car on own :-))
Simon
Ok
Honda fireblade 919rry engine
or
ZX9r engine
The two car that I like have those engines in them? What engine is more powerfull (BHP)
Sorry to edit the post but there is one other car with a
2001 Suzuki GSXR1000
So out of those 3?
[Edited on 2/5/06 by Mezzz]
I HAVE BEEN OFFERED A GSX1400? 1 year old. is this a good engine or is it too big and heavy?
aren't they air/oil cooled rather than water cooled? Might take some thinking about to keep it cool under the bonnet.
it will be relatively heavy for a bike engine but I imagine its still a lot lighter than a comparable car engine.
I also imagine it's got a huge amount of torque compared to most bike engines, so it would probably go quite well in a car.
quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
To Be fair Chris, one of the main reasons for going BEC is to use the Sequential box for clutchless shifts.. ie to drive it harder..
quote:
Yes I know you will get away without one, but bikes have a cush drive for a reason..
The ZX9 is pokier than a blade, the only compromise is thats its a bit short geared compared to the blade / R1 and most other BEC suitable engines, so you really need a very high diff (ie 3.3 or numerically lower) and/or large diameter tyres to give you decent top speed, whereas blades / R1s you can get away with 3.54 in a live axle (the highest available), or 3.6x IRS.
Er chris, have you ever heard of a slipper clutch???
All the bike racers I am refering to have slippers so the clutch is automatically pulled in on downshifts.. Everyone else should be using the clutch
if they dont want to lock the back wheel...
Clutchless shifting is not the big issue you are making it out to be, far worse is the lack of snatch absorbtion in the driveline... A clutchless
shift has less snatch than a clutched shift...
A bike gearbox has as much slack as is needed for a gearchange with a properly executed clutchless change as it does with a perfect clutched
change...
The snatch cause the dogs to smash into each other with no shock absorbtion that you get with a TRT/Cush Drive...
The real reason racers break a lot of gearboxes? Cheap wheels that have the sprokets bolted straight to the wheel with no cush drive...
If you buy top end alloys they have harder cush drive rubbers that are much better than none... marchesinis etc
This is merely my experience from many years as a race technician in Bemsee, MRO and BSB...
quote:I bow to your superior
This is merely my experience from many years as a race technician in Bemsee, MRO and BSB...
Going from what I've read so I may have misunderstood!
You can downshift without the slipper as it's job is to make the best of engine braking and stop the engine over speeding. If you constantly down
shift without clutch then it will wear the plates quicker.
Chris, a slipper clutch has ramps that disengage the pressure plate as soon as you come off the throttle...
Just because you have had one car last 4 years of track days could be as much down to luck as anything else...
I have heard a few drivers say "no need for a TRT I have never had gearbox problems" and then they have a blown gearbox...
So a slipper clutch reacts to coming off the throttle, not a gearchange...
It disengages the clutch and slips it to stop the engine braking locking the back wheel... ie it is slipping before you even touch the gearlever...
I hope this explains how a slipper works, if it doesnt please ask for further info..
Its nout about ego's its about facts rather than opinions...
Not really no, with a slipper clutch you get very little / no engine braking. Without a slipper (which you won't generally have from the factory
and is only an aftermarket race bike upgrade) you get engine braking but shouldnt really downchange at all without the clutch, as you'll likely
lock the rear wheels (due to too much engine braking) and in my opinion start taking chunks off the gear dogs.
On an engine without a slipper clutch you shouldnt significantly wear the clutch plates either way though, with or without the clutch.
quote:
Originally posted by chockymonster
Going from what I've read so I may have misunderstood!
You can downshift without the slipper as it's job is to make the best of engine braking and stop the engine over speeding. If you constantly down shift without clutch then it will wear the plates quicker.
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisGamlin
Not really no, with a slipper clutch you get very little / no engine braking. Without a slipper (which you won't generally have from the factory and is only an aftermarket race bike upgrade) you get engine braking but shouldnt really downchange at all without the clutch, as you'll likely lock the rear wheels (due to too much engine braking) and in my opinion start taking chunks off the gear dogs.
On an engine without a slipper clutch you shouldnt significantly wear the clutch plates either way though, with or without the clutch.
quote:Hmm, I dont see any facts here that prove a TRT leads to less gearbox failures, just your opinions. They may be based on experience, but so are mine.....
Originally posted by G.Man
Its nout about ego's its about facts rather than opinions...
quote:
Originally posted by CaLviNx
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisGamlin
Not really no, with a slipper clutch you get very little / no engine braking.
Bike engines in the main by their very design have very little engine braking anyway, so the addition of a slipper clutch is not going to make the issue much worse now is it.
Regards
At risk off encouraging this even further off topic...
Slipper clutches will be tuned to disengage at a certain torque. I would expect this to be above what you would get simply by rolling off the
throttle (otherwise you would lose a lot of mid-corner control) but below what it would take to lock up the back wheel. So I think if you were
braking from say sixth down to second your first couple of shifts would probably take place before the slipper clutch 'reacts'.
And bike engines certainly do generate plenty of engine braking in a bike (hence the need for slipper clutches). I imagine it feels like not a lot
when you put it in a car though.
quote:
Originally posted by CaLviNx
...and feel the statement about an ego coming into play by another forum user a cheap swipe
LMAO
Not gonna get into the ego thing, its not what these forums are about...
Chris, I am sure your experiences led you to believe what you said, and I am also sure that you are right about other matters other than a TRT..
Yes some slipper clutchs can be tuned for a certain torque, but very few are actually tuned, most have a fixed ramp size and thats that..
The actual torque limit is generated by the thickness of the clutch plates used, and gradually lessens as the race progresses... but in most cases, as
soon as you back off the throttle the clutch starts to slip and reduce the amount of engine braking applied...
I want a holeshot turbo for my zx12r
quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
Yes some slipper clutchs can be tuned for a certain torque, but very few are actually tuned, most have a fixed ramp size and thats that..
I find on the bike that if I let the revs drop in a high gear it will change down smooth enough without clutch till it reaches the gear that the
revs/speed are appropriate for, if you see what I mean. The only thing I've ever driven with an overrun clutch was a Saab, 99 I think it was.
I'd fitted a new sill and was taking it back when I got to a roundabout and lifted off and nothing happened, which caused a slight panic .
If cost is an issue then you could always consider a Honda CBR1000.
Okay it may only be 125BHP but this can easily upped by 10-15% via rejetting. But it makes up for its lack of BHP with a good deal of torque and in a
light weight car such as a Striker i.e. <400kg it pulls VERY strongly.
On the plus side its an extremely strong unit, common and very cheap - a couple of hundred quid.
Its not the top of the performance league, but its got enough power for me to handle!
quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
Not gonna get into the ego thing, its not what these forums are about...
Thread stealers
Ah, well that serves ya right for asking a question thats probably only been asked 50 times before without doing a search first (joking! )
quote:
Originally posted by wildchild
quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
Yes some slipper clutchs can be tuned for a certain torque, but very few are actually tuned, most have a fixed ramp size and thats that..
I meant more "tuned" by the designer rather than tuned by the user. In which case I think what I said makes sense.
I would have thought something which disengaged as soon as the throttle was closed (even in high gears) would be bloody difficult to ride, but I've never ridden one, so I'll concede to your experience.
quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
Chris,
Nothing you have said is strictly wrong, just understating the benefits IMO of a TRT prop... By other matters other than a TRT, what I meant to show was that I agreed with you, mechanical sympathy etc is another very important factor in GB failures...
We have blown many R1 boxes on our race bikes, before we switched to the GSXR, and now, finally gone back to the R1 for 2005/2006 as the gearbox has been improved substantially over the earlier models, but you appear to have had good luck with yours, which I believe, may lead you to believe that the TRT is less of a necessity than I believe...
Thats merely it... in my estimation, 80-90% of BEC users will benefit from a TRT, 10-20% wont benefit as much because they have much better mechanical sympathy...
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisGamlin
Anyway, if you dont mind we'll agree to agree that they are certainly a worthwhile fitment, but that we can't quite agree on the amount of benefit in relation to other factors like linkage precision and driving style etc
Cheers
Chris
[Edited on 3/5/06 by ChrisGamlin]
quote:
Originally posted by chris mason
just fit a car engine and have done with it
Chris
Don't get us started on those heavy old boat anchors
thanks for the advice on the TRT something to consider
quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
What you miss with a bike, is that the VAST majority of riders never touch the rear brake, and all braking is done with the front brake, the rear is merely used to "turn" the bike under a late overtake...
Therefore, when hard on the front brake, changing down applies too much braking to the rear wheel.. necessitating the use of the clutch... excessive clutch use agravates lower arm pump up, so is undesirable... This is why slipper clutchs are pretty important, engine braking just isnt required or attractive on a race bike...
quote:
Originally posted by wildchild
quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
What you miss with a bike, is that the VAST majority of riders never touch the rear brake, and all braking is done with the front brake, the rear is merely used to "turn" the bike under a late overtake...
Therefore, when hard on the front brake, changing down applies too much braking to the rear wheel.. necessitating the use of the clutch... excessive clutch use agravates lower arm pump up, so is undesirable... This is why slipper clutchs are pretty important, engine braking just isnt required or attractive on a race bike...
I know all this. I ride 10,000+ miles a year on various bikes. I know the theory behind slipper clutches. I know what it feels like when you shift down through the gears on a bike with a conventional clutch. I am not 'missing' anything.
What I was suggesting was that ZERO engine braking would not be desirable as you would lose some of the ability to control the bike by rolling on and off the throttle mid corner. A little bit of engine braking would still be desirable. I have no idea how much this 'little bit' is, which is why I was prepared to concede to you above on the grounds that you seem to have some experience of race bikes.
Have you actually ridden a bike with a slipper clutch?
Again, apologies for veering off topic. Use a ZZR1100 engine. They must be great, I've got one!
Poor chap, just wanted to know what engine to choose....
Triumph obviously, cos it's BRITISH well maybe :-))
Clutch, pah... lockup clutch if I could afford one. They have neat adjuster to chose the % slip to allow :-)
TRT, well added one on the striker and great 'feel' improvement around town. But it was never bad at top revs, all was smooth if revs were
right :-)
Now the challenger has no trt, only notice it round town with 1 - 2nd gear, but tend to drive round towns and then can't feel or hear much :-)
Simon
Slipper - same as adjustable lock up? or not?
Lockup kits
Simon
quote:
Originally posted by chaos999
Slipper - same as adjustable lock up? or not?
Lockup kits
Simon
on the legal road i think they are dangerous...
also rideing on hills etc. will be bad when going downwards without engine brake...
over here there are hills you go up with your Vauxhall Corsa up the hill you 100
you press clutch and put it in neutral
i call it eco mode..albeit you have to be very very on your hood because the km/h will mark and reach the 120+km/h..
(who does the math about the bhp required for this??)
imagine you go with your bike with 0% motor brake well then you will need to brake that amount of bhp with your brakes! also it is a very long part
(you could guess it) sow your brakes will gonna get up to temp..and won´t like that.... wich will result in fading and that will result in less grip
but when you notice that you will apply more power wich will result in more temp and that will result...
well anyway..
i think that on the circuit you need to adapt your driveing style to it...
because when i´m driveing in the car (tintop) i never push clutch and then the
brakes in fact it gives the sensation that your brakes aren´t working...
(because you need to press harder on them)
dunno if a diesel has a bigger flywheel then a petrol car but i was more thinking in compression ratio and strok lenght..
concerning engine brake amount...
because of its small stroke the bike engine would be just a air pump and in fact the diesel lump would become a compressor??
Tks
you should be using the brakes to slow down not the engine, if if you are fifth and have to slow down to second apply the brakes then as the revs drop
too low to still be in fifth out the clutch down change into second and as the speed gets to what you want in second let out the clutch.
slipper clutchs dont remove all engine braking they just reduce it to prevent the engine overrevving on down changes.
cossey, did you actually read the rest of the thread????
Right im going to change the name of this thread as there is a lot of good information in it. so that it is searchable
What should I call it
Lots of forum flab on this thread ! Bit more lively than it was last time I looked in !
quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
cossey, did you actually read the rest of the thread????
I have to say I have never seen one with a seperate spring, all the ones I have used use ramps or ramps and balls to set up the clutch...
The angle of the ramp dictates how much and how fast the clutch slips or disengages...
quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
Yes I have ridden a bike with a slipper clutch, They are not for road use....
And a racer would NEVER roll off the throttle mid corner anyway... the weight transfer would probably kill him..
quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
I have to say I have never seen one with a seperate spring, all the ones I have used use ramps or ramps and balls to set up the clutch...
The angle of the ramp dictates how much and how fast the clutch slips or disengages...
quote:
Originally posted by cossey
quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
I have to say I have never seen one with a seperate spring, all the ones I have used use ramps or ramps and balls to set up the clutch...
The angle of the ramp dictates how much and how fast the clutch slips or disengages...
they have to have a secondary spring otherwise they wont return back fast enough, the spring plus the ramp angle determines how much torque they can send back to the engine, if there was no spring then when the rider came back on the throttle there would be a lag before he got drive again.
Click me
that shows one in bits and how the second spring works (page 2)
PS Just like to add, that if you fit a slipper clutch, dont ever bother trying to push start your car, the back wheels will need to be doing about
50mph before the clutch will drag enough to spin the motor, tahts the reason why you see those guys with the external starters at the BSB etc... has
to get the back wheel to at least 30mph before it will start the bike...
so there is some 'engine braking' then, otherwise they'd never start!
not having a dig btw, i've learnt quite a bit from your posts in this topic.
quote:
Originally posted by wildchild
so there is some 'engine braking' then, otherwise they'd never start!
not having a dig btw, i've learnt quite a bit from your posts in this topic.
go out to the grid, stick the key in, push the starter button...
would have some good comedy value. although I seem to remember reading that one of the Kawasaki BSB teams had race bikes with ignition keys when the
ZX10R came out because they were so new they didn't have time to remove them.
just out of idle interest, who did you work for in BSB?
Paul Young Racing
Wow, what an argument!
Suzuki GSXR 1100 power for me, 5 gears in a box thats had more abuse on the drag strip than any other mamby pamby Japanese bike engine.
150bhp is no problem and should be easy to install. Only problem is early nineties bikes had oil cooled motors but the last ones where water
cooled.
Any comments on the oil cooled variety??
They obviously been proven a solid and reliable engine in drag bikes etc, and I dont think there are any particular issues with sump design for oil
surge.
I guess the main problems with them are that the newest ones are still over 10 years old so will be getting a bit leggy, they are heavier than the
more modern engines that give equal or better power output, and also because they aren't a common BEC install, there will be less off the shelf
parts to buy so the rest of the install might cost a bit more than say a blade or R1, but overall probably not a bad choice at all.
cheers
Chris
[Edited on 6/5/06 by ChrisGamlin]
I hope to be corrected on this;
Why has nobody used the Honda X11 motor? Just like a Blackbird(injection) but minus 15bhp at the top
end.
Stomps all over the B'Bird in the midrange though which I thought would be ideal for a BEC.
Col
I guess it might be because the 'bird doesnt have the best reputation for reliability in BEC circles, due to the sump design and oil surge issues
they often suffer with, and usually needing dry sumping on track. Also it might be worth checking the gearing is the same as the 'bird, being a
naked tourer it wont have such an achievable top speed so could have a lower ratio gearbox meaning its not as suitable for a BEC given the limitation
of diff ratios to use.
[Edited on 6/5/06 by ChrisGamlin]