Hey, I have long been a member of this forum and have never really been an active poster so here's to solving that problem! Secondly, I have always wanted to build a locost however due to my age have never really had the money to do so before, until now (hopefully!) - and I am looking for a bit of advice.

I am 18 years of age, and ever since I was given the opportunity to experience a seven on a track and being involved in a number of runs, not to mention numerous amounts of kit car shows, I have had a burning desire to build one for myself.. one day.. and that I shall do!

Anyway, to cut to the chase, I am hoping to slowly build a Locost over a period of 2-3 years due to limited income from a full time job, not to mention limited experience. I have considered building the chassis myself, however due to never having welded anything before I think it's safer for me to buy one - at least then I know everything has been formed using jigs, that the welds remain neat and tidy and the steering geometry will be correct.

My first question is this - taking insurance into consideration for what will be a 20 year old at the time.. as well as future-proofing - what would be the best way to go about building the seven in terms of engine and donor vehicle? I was considering Mazda MX5 and the e36 as these have been mentioned quite a lot throughout these forums as sierra based vehicles are becoming quite rare now, however I was wondering if there is anything else I could *possibly* consider? I have also looked into Pinto engines and Zetec engines however I really cannot decide - the engine/donor needs to be relatively cheap as previously mentioned.

Someone told me a while ago to use a 1.3 crossflow engine for insurance purposes and then later on switch to a Zetec engine using the same gearbox - is this a good way to go?

I hope someone could shed some light on the situation and offer me some advice!

Regards,

Adam

[Edited on 10/3/11 by Neuronic]

Welcome to the NutHouse!

Well Your age is against you insurance wise. So keep the engine size and power down to a minimum. If you can get a 1100 cc Escort crossflow engine its about as gutless as you can get, and still leave your options open for later on.
ie with a Type 9 gearbox you can change up to a 1600 crossflow, or Pinto or later model. ie it gives you the most options for later on.
This way you keep your insurance costs to a minimum. Once you have a bit more age, and No Claims Bonus, you can change the engine for something a bit more lively, without having to change your car. (You dont want to shell out on a IVA again!)

As for building, a lot will depend on your skill level. Cheapest is a scratch built chassis. However, you will need to be a reasonably good welder and fabricator.
Check out something like a MK Indy or similar. This would give you a good chassis / body at a reasonable cost.

You dont have to shell out for all the bits in one go. Get a chassis and start there, and buy bits as you build. Thus you spread the costs over a period of time.

Use the search facility as many common problems have been well covered in the past and are in the archives.
Dont be afraid to ask... there are a good bunch of knowlegeable people on here.
If you dont get an answer within 24 hrs, then the problem is probably a bit more difficult that you first thought

Finally... Hope you have a good sense of humour... you will find it useful!

Good Luck.

A number of years back....seven to be precise, I was in your position and built a 1.6 pinto engined indy.

If I were in the same position now, I'd use a post '91, pre '94 1.6 mx5. Insurance will sting for the first few years, but at 20, I think I'd got through the worst of the premiums, including crashing it 5 months after I got it on the road, so that weighted premiums til I was 22ish.

My advice....when you think about taking it out for that last run out in november......don't.

Apart from that, scour the usual places for a cheap mx5 and get cracking. I've got one as a daily driver and I think it'd make an ideal engine for a 7. It loves having its neck wrung

Tom

Hey Adam,

I am very much in the same posisiton. I have been building since i was 17 (now 19) and used a 1.6 E36 as a donor. I scratch built a chassis based loosely on the book and the haynes book. Im nearing the end but with being at uni i dont get much time to work on it.

On a seperate note my bro lives in deeping so when you get a bit further a long id love to come down and see your car and possibly lend a hand if ever you need it when im in the area.

Cheers
Mikkel

Thanks for the replies - yes I was looking at mx5's, just wasn't sure about the insurance on them.. I take it you mean a 1.6 engine?

quote:

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Originally posted by Miks15
Hey Adam,

I am very much in the same posisiton. I have been building since i was 17 (now 19) and used a 1.6 E36 as a donor. I scratch built a chassis based loosely on the book and the haynes book. Im nearing the end but with being at uni i dont get much time to work on it.

On a seperate note my bro lives in deeping so when you get a bit further a long id love to come down and see your car and possibly lend a hand if ever you need it when im in the area.

Cheers
Mikkel

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Just a quicky answer for now, but it should be a step in the right direction:

I assume you are building to a budget, or at least that's the plan. So why don't you add an arbitrary amount to everything you buy, let's say £10, so an engine that would cost you £50 costs £60 and a set of shocks for £100, £110 and so on. You put all those £10's or £20's etc into a pot and that's what you use for your insurance. Obviously you could do a similar thing with a DD each month to a parent's account; £20 pm for 3 years would be over £700, that shouldn't be far off the insurance for something in the smaller engine range, but not as low as a 1.1 etc...

In accordance with the advice above, go for something in the 1.6 range, maybe even a 1.4 K series engine or a 1.4 duratec (or whatever that yamaha engine is in the ford puma)? Build the car with light weight in mind and you'll be very surprised by how quick it is...

Or go for a smaller bike engine say a GSXR 750, and go for ultimate lightweight... Get a pre-Lit westy or very early caterham and strip it down and do a nut and bolt rebuild...

ATB

[Edited on 10/3/11 by Steve Hignett]

quote:

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Originally posted by Steve Hignett
Just a quicky answer for now, but it should be a step in the right direction:

I assume you are building to a budget, or at least that's the plan. So why don't you add an arbitrary amount to everything you buy, let's say £10, so an engine that would cost you £50 costs £60 and a set of shocks for £100, £110 and so on. You put all those £10's or £20's etc into a pot and that's what you use for your insurance. Obviously you could do a similar thing with a DD each month to a parent's account; £20 pm for 3 years would be over £700, that shouldn't be far off the insurance for something in the smaller engine range, but not as low as a 1.1 etc...

In accordance with the advice above, go for something in the 1.6 range, maybe even a 1.4 K series engine or a 1.4 duratec (or whatever that yamaha engine is in the ford puma)? Build the car with light weight in mind and you'll be very surprised by how quick it is...

Or go for a smaller bike engine say a GSXR 750, and go for ultimate lightweight... Get a pre-Lit westy or very early caterham and strip it down and do a nut and bolt rebuild...

ATB

[Edited on 10/3/11 by Steve Hignett]

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Hi cheapest way is to use ford rear end type 9 box and 1300 ford engine and upgrade as birthdays allow ins wise
you can go 1.6 cvh or pinto bolt engine straight in 1.8 cvh or pinto straight in 2.0 pinto or 2.0-2.3 i4 twin cam ford (rs 2000) or cosworth straight in no back end or geabox change no piont in zetec no lighter than pinto similar power then change bellhousing and go duratec.
Good luck keep going Ali

quote:

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Originally posted by ali f27
Hi cheapest way is to use ford rear end type 9 box and 1300 ford engine and upgrade as birthdays allow ins wise
you can go 1.6 cvh or pinto bolt engine straight in 1.8 cvh or pinto straight in 2.0 pinto or 2.0-2.3 i4 twin cam ford (rs 2000) or cosworth straight in no back end or geabox change no piont in zetec no lighter than pinto similar power then change bellhousing and go duratec.
Good luck keep going Ali

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quote:

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Originally posted by Neuronic

quote:

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Originally posted by Steve Hignett
Just a quicky answer for now, but it should be a step in the right direction:

I assume you are building to a budget, or at least that's the plan. So why don't you add an arbitrary amount to everything you buy, let's say £10, so an engine that would cost you £50 costs £60 and a set of shocks for £100, £110 and so on. You put all those £10's or £20's etc into a pot and that's what you use for your insurance. Obviously you could do a similar thing with a DD each month to a parent's account; £20 pm for 3 years would be over £700, that shouldn't be far off the insurance for something in the smaller engine range, but not as low as a 1.1 etc...

In accordance with the advice above, go for something in the 1.6 range, maybe even a 1.4 K series engine or a 1.4 duratec (or whatever that yamaha engine is in the ford puma)? Build the car with light weight in mind and you'll be very surprised by how quick it is...

Or go for a smaller bike engine say a GSXR 750, and go for ultimate lightweight... Get a pre-Lit westy or very early caterham and strip it down and do a nut and bolt rebuild...

ATB

[Edited on 10/3/11 by Steve Hignett]

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Thanks for that - that's a good idea. Funilly enough I was also considering K-Series engines as they are very light, provide good bhp, are revvy and low maintenance engines however they are FWD arent they? However the benefit is that they are cheap!

I know that some Caterhams used them but how did they convert them to RWD?



[Edited on 10/3/11 by Neuronic]

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Yes 1300 crossflow find out how much 1600 or 1800 pinto would cost to ins cheaper to buy than 1300 would need to lean to weld first dont learn on your chassis buy haynes roadster chassis seirra back end future proof yourself
We have built 4 cars an f27, haynes with 2.3 rs engine and 4 wheel drive, mk with fireblade, and haynes with 300 bhp duratec hillclimber

Nothing wrong with k engine would just need to add bellhousing to budget every thing else woul be the same

start looking for 4x4 seirra back end lsd discs etc never need to upgrade what ever the power

Right, well thanks to everyone who has replied.. I have now been given a wide range of ideas! And about 4-5 different engine ideas!

Which one do I use haha - my lack of knowledge really doesn't help me limit the choices! K-Series is looking promising though.. as they are *relatively* new, cheap and produce good bhp.. Anyone strongly advise differently?

[Edited on 11/3/11 by Neuronic]

Don't muck about with an ancient, gutless, heavy 1.3 xflow.


For simplicity and cheap insurance you want a early carbed blade engine. Simples, cheap and so so effective.

quote:

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Originally posted by Yazza54
Don't muck about with an ancient, gutless, heavy 1.3 xflow.


For simplicity and cheap insurance you want a early carbed blade engine. Simples, cheap and so so effective.

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Would a bike engine not give you more performance than a lower litre road engine and also reduce your insurance premium?

quote:

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Originally posted by Neuronic

quote:

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Originally posted by Yazza54
Don't muck about with an ancient, gutless, heavy 1.3 xflow.


For simplicity and cheap insurance you want a early carbed blade engine. Simples, cheap and so so effective.

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Aren't they relatively expensive?

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quote:

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Originally posted by SeanStone
Would a bike engine not give you more performance than a lower litre road engine and also reduce your insurance premium?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Yazza54

quote:

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Originally posted by Neuronic

quote:

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Originally posted by Yazza54
Don't muck about with an ancient, gutless, heavy 1.3 xflow.


For simplicity and cheap insurance you want a early carbed blade engine. Simples, cheap and so so effective.

---

Aren't they relatively expensive?

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To insure? No. I could insure two R1 fisher furys for what it'd cost me to insure a fiat punto. The one r1 fury will do though. I'm 20 btw.


The engines are cheap, light, easy to move around and work on, clutches take 30 mins to fit. Will transform a quick car into a fast car. These engines are built to take abuse and tbh if my r1 went pop torrow I'd have another one in by the end of the weekend for not a lot of money. Though I'm confident that wont be happening.


People also forget that with such small wheels and low speed gearing in comparison with a bike you're not putting as much stress on the box as you may think. Though balls out standing starts will kill any gearbox eventually. More bike gearbox damage comes from poor shifting or pneumatic shifters.

I seriously wouldn't consider a flow or pinto. You're a young lad, you'll love the drama of a BEC.

[Edited on 11/3/11 by Yazza54]

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Hi mate,
Im 18 now... Been building since i was 16 i guess.... Have a kitcar pretty close to IVA but its on the back burner as getting into racing at the moment.... Don't try bike engine, Insurance companies have caught on... I'd say the 1.6 MX5 engine is what you want to be putting in, you can turbo it up to 200bhp cheap as well ... I've got a 1.8 blacktop zetec, kind of hoping to IVA it and be able to use it a bit this summer... Your not to far away in Peterborough, im at uni in coventry and home in essex so if im ever in the area
Regards
Ed

I'm paying a good 700 quid less for my R1 fisher fury than I was for my 1.8vvc GTM libra...


That's with a hefty mileage still on the policy because I'm going to put 3500 miles on it in 10 days in the alps this year. £9k value..




[Edited on 11/3/11 by Yazza54]

quote:

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Originally posted by norfolkluego
Haven't insurance companies cottoned on to bike engines then, do they just rate on the capacity?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Neuronic

quote:

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Originally posted by norfolkluego
Haven't insurance companies cottoned on to bike engines then, do they just rate on the capacity?

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I would also like to know this, will kind of determine whether I go BEC or Road Engine I guess

[Edited on 11/3/11 by Neuronic]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Yazza54

quote:

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Originally posted by Neuronic

quote:

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Originally posted by norfolkluego
Haven't insurance companies cottoned on to bike engines then, do they just rate on the capacity?

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I would also like to know this, will kind of determine whether I go BEC or Road Engine I guess

[Edited on 11/3/11 by Neuronic]

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Have I not just made it pretty clear?

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R1 or blade just need a sump baffle plate. Easy and cheap.

Busas need dry sump.

Oh I see.. sounds easy enough, is there anthing else I should know/be aware of regarding BEC? Appreciate the help Yazza.

Well there's the obvious lack of reverse but a bit of forethought usually solves that. You could always fit an electric one though.

Look into what diff ratio is best for your gearset too, easiest to just copy what someone else already uses. Mine runs a freelander diff as it gives a higher top speed and is lighter than sierra. Or you could go live axle..


Bike engines are relatively simple, after all you don't have the room for masses of wiring and clutter on a bike!

Another plus on a crossflow (or other engine of that age) is that you only need to meet the "visible smoke" test on the IVA and forever afterwards.
What I mean is, if you pass the test with an old engine, then the car will only ever have to meet those standards, whatever engine you change to in the future. Much simplifying the MOT.

quote:

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Originally posted by UncleFista
Another plus on a crossflow (or other engine of that age) is that you only need to meet the "visible smoke" test on the IVA and forever afterwards.
What I mean is, if you pass the test with an old engine, then the car will only ever have to meet those standards, whatever engine you change to in the future. Much simplifying the MOT.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Neuronic

quote:

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Originally posted by UncleFista
Another plus on a crossflow (or other engine of that age) is that you only need to meet the "visible smoke" test on the IVA and forever afterwards.
What I mean is, if you pass the test with an old engine, then the car will only ever have to meet those standards, whatever engine you change to in the future. Much simplifying the MOT.

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That is very interesting to know UncleFista! I will take that into consideration. However from taking a quick look around - it seems crossflow engines are quite expensive now, from what I can see.. however I still need to perform a more in-depth search

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quote:

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Originally posted by Yazza54

quote:

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Originally posted by Neuronic

quote:

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Originally posted by UncleFista
Another plus on a crossflow (or other engine of that age) is that you only need to meet the "visible smoke" test on the IVA and forever afterwards.
What I mean is, if you pass the test with an old engine, then the car will only ever have to meet those standards, whatever engine you change to in the future. Much simplifying the MOT.

---

That is very interesting to know UncleFista! I will take that into consideration. However from taking a quick look around - it seems crossflow engines are quite expensive now, from what I can see.. however I still need to perform a more in-depth search

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I'm sorry but if you can build a car you can build a IVA/MOT friendly exhaust to slip on as and when.


Build the car you want to end up with for the long term, not based on the odd test once a year and the initial IVA.

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Hi guys,

I'm just about to start the same sort of project, and have the same sort of background,been to shows. Now since starting a job I've decided to start a build.

I've been debating over an mx5 build or BEC.

Since bec has been told as lower insurance. I was wondering about the price of a bike engine. Ask I can seem to find is like R1 engines for close to 1k. Is that the normal sort of price? Are there any cheaper places to look other than ebay?

Thanks

Michael

I built my libra but not the fury. However if I did another I'd be going the same route or poss a zx14.


It was brand new at time of build for £2k but I've seen plenty of 5jjs and 893/919 etc blades on eBay and such for around 500 quid.



Sometimes worth looking for full bikes aswell. Seen people remove the engine and sell on the frame before.



I just typed 'fireblade engine' into eBay and voila! Cheap motors.

I can't link them cause I'm on my iPhone but have a look..

There's always the zx9 engine too, kinda in-between the r1 and blade on power. But people do tend to favour the r1 and fireblade for litre bike engines. Not sure why.


Theyre the two I'd consider. Blackbird needs dry sump and has a weak box so they're your best bets.

Hi

First off don't forget you'll need reverse gear to pass the IVA test when doing a BEC build, so do factor that in.

Now as a different idea;-
Why not save up for a short while and go shopping for a tatty but road legal 'seven' of roughly the type and finish you want.

Doesn't really matter what engine/box (as long as it's not too weird!) as think of it as a collection of components, that cost less in a lump than they would do seperatly, that doesn't need an IVA test..

SORN It.

Strip it right back to a bare chassis and start again - you now have a 'comprehensive kit' really!

If you decide to change the engine / colour write to the DVLA and let then know.

Once completed MOT it and drive off into the sunset.


There are lots of plusses to this method starting with not having to worry about a donor car (and the fun one can have with neighbours / parents / wifes while dismantling one of them) carrying onto;-
if it's been built and you strip it you can see how it's been done, fix what you don't like and do a propper job when putting it back together.
You won't end up with a huge pile of kit you don't eventually use..
It's cheaper.

quote:

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Originally posted by eddie99
Hi mate,
Im 18 now... Been building since i was 16 i guess.... Have a kitcar pretty close to IVA but its on the back burner as getting into racing at the moment.... Don't try bike engine, Insurance companies have caught on... I'd say the 1.6 MX5 engine is what you want to be putting in, you can turbo it up to 200bhp cheap as well ... I've got a 1.8 blacktop zetec, kind of hoping to IVA it and be able to use it a bit this summer... Your not to far away in Peterborough, im at uni in coventry and home in essex so if im ever in the area
Regards
Ed

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Insurance for kit cars tends to be a lot cheaper than production cars. A friend who had a drink driving ban at the age of 22 found the only thing he could afford to insure was a VW based Nova for around £600, his crappy rusty old Fiesta was £1400 for just third party

quote:

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Originally posted by Yazza54
I built my libra but not the fury. However if I did another I'd be going the same route or poss a zx14.


It was brand new at time of build for £2k but I've seen plenty of 5jjs and 893/919 etc blades on eBay and such for around 500 quid.



Sometimes worth looking for full bikes aswell. Seen people remove the engine and sell on the frame before.



I just typed 'fireblade engine' into eBay and voila! Cheap motors.

I can't link them cause I'm on my iPhone but have a look..

---

I read somewhere that most bikes won't last more than around 75k miles - correct me if I am wrong.. It was just something I read.

[Edited on 11/3/11 by Neuronic]

Well maybe, but in general, its highly unlikely that you will be doing 10K miles a year in your kit car.
In 4 years I have done barely 7k miles.

I have limited mileage insurance which helps keep the costs down as well.

quote:

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Originally posted by Yazza54

I'm sorry but if you can build a car you can build a IVA/MOT friendly exhaust to slip on as and when.


Build the car you want to end up with for the long term, not based on the odd test once a year and the initial IVA.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Neuronic

quote:

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Originally posted by Miks15
Hey Adam,

I am very much in the same posisiton. I have been building since i was 17 (now 19) and used a 1.6 E36 as a donor. I scratch built a chassis based loosely on the book and the haynes book. Im nearing the end but with being at uni i dont get much time to work on it.

On a seperate note my bro lives in deeping so when you get a bit further a long id love to come down and see your car and possibly lend a hand if ever you need it when im in the area.

Cheers
Mikkel

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Thanks Miks! That's very kind of you! I am in the same situation as I work full time and do a part-time degree at uni.. It's just something I would love to do! How far are you with your build?

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quote:

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Originally posted by JimSpencer
Hi

First off don't forget you'll need reverse gear to pass the IVA test when doing a BEC build, so do factor that in.

Now as a different idea;-
Why not save up for a short while and go shopping for a tatty but road legal 'seven' of roughly the type and finish you want.

Doesn't really matter what engine/box (as long as it's not too weird!) as think of it as a collection of components, that cost less in a lump than they would do seperatly, that doesn't need an IVA test..

SORN It.

Strip it right back to a bare chassis and start again - you now have a 'comprehensive kit' really!

If you decide to change the engine / colour write to the DVLA and let then know.

Once completed MOT it and drive off into the sunset.


There are lots of plusses to this method starting with not having to worry about a donor car (and the fun one can have with neighbours / parents / wifes while dismantling one of them) carrying onto;-
if it's been built and you strip it you can see how it's been done, fix what you don't like and do a propper job when putting it back together.
You won't end up with a huge pile of kit you don't eventually use..
It's cheaper.

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