So I took my car to TTS performance in silverstone today to have a little tuning session. Here's the results

I've got to admit that I'm a little disappointed
They found that the car was running very lean so sorted that out but said that if I want more power I need to think about water meth injection and a smaller supercharger pulley.
I'm not sure what the process is but they didn't really check the engine physically for any issues. Spark plugs, injectors ect.
Also my car seems to be idling very strangely, keeps dropping right down to almost stall then back to 1100rpm. the only differences since it was ok are the new air filter and I teed the vacuum hose and connected up the fpr which was disconnected before. TTS said that they were going to map it with the fpr connected as that's what the recommend but idle was still like this when I got home.

[Edited on 8/8/14 by Sierra]

[Edited on 8/8/14 by Sierra]

What is the engine spec?

If they are talking about water/meth you would seem to have a heating issue, I presume this is a Rotrex engine?

[Edited on 8/8/14 by jeffw]

So it's a standard blacktop with eaton m45. The inlet temp got upto 80'c when run at max, the next step would be to get a smaller pulley to up the psi but water/meth would be needed to keep the temps down

seems odd, thats the sort of power your would expect from a stock zetec without the blower.

what engine management have you got?

agree with TTS about the air temp issue, i think the M45 is too small for a 2.0L zetec unless you only running a couple of PSI boost, with water injection you could run abit more boost, but in my opinion bigger blower with the same gearing mite be the best way to go.

assuming non-intercooled?

8-10psi of boost on an otherwise stock 2.0L should give around 200BHP if you can get the charge temp under control

Is this wheels or flywheel?

That's what I originally thought. The management is omex 500.
With a 55mm pulley the charger will be at 9-10psi so should be good with water/meth.
Problem with a larger charger is the lack of space I have, if I was to go that route it would mean a complete change of setup which would be a lot of money. I'm hoping that TTS can have a play once I get the bits together or find a company that will fit it for me and retune.

quote:

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Originally posted by stevebubs
Is this wheels or flywheel?

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States corrected crank power in the lower right corner

Bailey Performance - Got 155bhp & 168lbft Torque out of an old 61k ford cougar 125ps blacktop..
Would have liked to have found a more powerful 135ps motor..

Description
Description


[Edited on 9/8/14 by johnemms]

So 80 deg C and what boost did it register? I know Rich would have been looking at the boost..


This is mine on the same dyno




[Edited on 9/8/14 by jeffw]

[Edited on 9/8/14 by jeffw]

He didn't mention the boost to be honest but last dyno showed that it was running 6psi.

80 Deg C and 6psi doesn't sound great. You would do a lot better with an intercooler.

80'c was the max it went to few a split second. While driving it sits around 55-60,an intercooler would be ideal but would need a complete make over and a fair few £s

I'd be disapointed with those figures.

As I see it you can...

a. Spend a load of time/money to do it properly and get the power it should be capable of (see Jeffs chart).
b. Spend a load of time/(and less) money trying to get the best from what you have with altered pulley, etc.
c. Sell off the forced induction bit's that don't work and fit bike carbs to get the same power (chester sports cars kit makes 160bhp+ out of the box I believe) with a load less gubbins/weight attached.
d. Leave it as is with little more than standard power and a load of extra weight and complication.

the last thing you would do is remove the injection and fit bike carbs, you still need some sort of ECU for the ignition.

there is a reason why no production car or serous racer uses carbs, they are a thing of the past.

the only time you will see a race car on carbs it due to race regulations, even autograssers are switching to EFI.

dont get me wrong, we tune all sorts of carbs including bike but EFI is the way to go.

www.baileyperformance.co.uk

www.facebook.com/baileyperformance

[Edited on 9/8/14 by BaileyPerformance]

Hi,

Hope you don't mind my input, Ive played with the M45 a lot on previous cars and i hope you'd appreciate my input.

The M45 is a very old design, infact its a derivative of a blower used to pressurise aircraft that date back to the 2nd world war.

I fitted an M45 to a 1.6L 16v VW engine, managed 242bhp @10psi out of it. But went through 3 superchargers in the process, they hate heat and become extremely inefficient at temperatures above 80c.

I eventually ditched the M45 and bought a rotrex C30-94, and pushed it to 290bhp before selling up and breaking the whole car for bits!

I found that realistically you may only see 380-400cfm @10psi from one of these, although on the mini people have claimed some pretty big figures with smaller pulleys and better IC setups.

If your boost temp is 80c, its likely that the charger casing itself is running close to 90c. From previous experience your charger will not last long running those sort of case temps, the clearances tighten up on the rotors and cause more heat. It will eventually damage one of the roller bearings in the end, or knock the charger rotor timing out which will destroy the charger (gears are only press fit).

Can you show us some pictures of the setup and are you running a blow through setup? (TB after charger w/ dump valve or recirc valve) Running blow through with recirc fitted after an IC is the best way to drop temps internally, and the air you are recirculating will cool the charger and intake temps when not WOT.

I am good friends with a guy that builds kits that uses the M45 on A series mini's, and we did a lot of development with the kit he uses on the mini for my engine, he uses a water jacket and no IC for his setups. We built a water jacket system that goes round the charger and removes case heating, runs its own small water pump, reservoir and radiator. This dropped intake temps by 20c alone.

See in this picture, the water jacket we fitted to the charger.


To be honest, on a 2.0l your pushing the charger to its limits, hense the low boost figures, the engine is starting to flow more than the charger can produce and the boost is dropping. Add the temperature in to it and the boost drops even more due to the increased inefficiency. You should be able to spin the charger faster for a few more psi but only when you have got the heat management issues addressed.

Try fitting an IC and a charger water jacket setup. I still have my kit lying about in the garage if you fancy using it? I have a pump, radiator and jacket. All you'll need is a small heater tank and some pipe.

If you drop that boost temp by 30c you will see 200bhp.

[Edited on 9/8/14 by jwhatley]

Basically all the supercharger is doing, currently, is overcoming the losses from the supercharger to put you back where you would be without. You either need to sort the cooling or remove the charger.

quote:

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Originally posted by BaileyPerformance
the last thing you would do is remove the injection and fit bike carbs, you still need some sort of ECU for the ignition.

there is a reason why no production car or serous racer uses carbs, they are a thing of the past.

the only time you will see a race car on carbs it due to race regulations, even autograssers are switching to EFI.

dont get me wrong, we tune all sorts of carbs including bike but EFI is the way to go.

www.baileyperformance.co.uk

www.facebook.com/baileyperformance

[Edited on 9/8/14 by BaileyPerformance]

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What generation charger is it? If 5th generation not much you can do but a third generation will respond well to porting.

The m90 ported 3rd generation on my DB7 gets up to 40 degrees on a pretty poor charge cooler, whatever you do without getting that inlet temp right down you are wasting your time, water injection is just a plaster.

Regards Mark

I'd have to check what gen.

Do you guys recommend that I upgrade the injectors, spark plugs ect as they are standard at the min. If so which ones?

quote:

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Originally posted by mark chandler
What generation charger is it? If 5th generation not much you can do but a third generation will respond well to porting.

The m90 ported 3rd generation on my DB7 gets up to 40 degrees on a pretty poor charge cooler, whatever you do without getting that inlet temp right down you are wasting your time, water injection is just a plaster.

Regards Mark

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Black blades is a 5th generation, i don't think that 3rd gens were fitted to mini's. They were fitted on the merc CLK or the SLK 180 kompressor IIRC.

5th gen had a coating allowing a closer tolerance on the blades, and apparently were better for cooling as less heat transfer.

Not much work possible then on this item, unless the injectors are running 100% open no point in changing them, cooler plugs may assist but that intake temperature has to be quelled.

Putting on a smaller pulley will just exasperate the problem, you need to cool the charge!

An intercooler would work, but my napkin calculations only suggests that will only give 10% extra power at your current boost.

Out of interest; what is your exhaust setup?

Either ditch the supercharger and put a normal ITB setup on there and get 170BHP or sort the temps and then drop the pulley size for more boost. I would be surprised if you got much over 180-190 with the M45.

At the minute I'm definitely going to keep the charger and have a play with getting the temps down and smaller pulley. It may end up being a mistake but hey where's the fun in giving up and just getting a ITB setup. The car runs very well and I love the constant power and the noise is addictive , I'm just being greedy asking for more power as it's not exactly slow as is and my driving probably doesn't get the best out of the car.

quote:

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Originally posted by mark chandler
What generation charger is it? If 5th generation not much you can do but a third generation will respond well to porting.

The m90 ported 3rd generation on my DB7 gets up to 40 degrees on a pretty poor charge cooler, whatever you do without getting that inlet temp right down you are wasting your time, water injection is just a plaster.

Regards Mark

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What exactly would I need to make it work with itbs as you say, and rough cost.

All depends how handy you are.

You can get an inlet manifold plate and build your own manifold to fit an 45mm ITB set. Then all you would need to do was build a plenum, or just modify the one you have to fit to the TB's.

If you have money, you could buy it all direct from jenvey for example.

I think I'll start with cooling this setup first, one because of space but mainly due to costs.
I can't even begin to imagine what the inlet temps were when the air filter induction was 5 times the length and behind the radiator. Funny thing is it was rolling road at 175bhp back then

Does anyone know what this is?
I found it next to the oil filter and it was disconnected

Thats an oil presure sensor.

Many thanks. I've connected it back up, but worrying why it was disconnected.

Probably just knocked off when changing the oil filter.

Did the gauge work before? Does it now? Is the presure OK?

Yes all ok

So I couldn't resist and had to take apart my car just to see how it was setup.




Just after the tb but before the sc there's a small chamber so I could inject the water meth there. Some say that it doesn't work as well straight into the tb. I was thinking that I could possibly have a second jet in the plenum after the sc aswell, that should surely keep temps down.

If you want a lot more whine and a little more power block up the silencer holes, the small triangles

ITB's will not give you any more power, just add complication to that setup, it just blasts air into that box then straight into the head so you have potential to intercool with a matrix between either the charger and box

[Edited on 13/8/14 by mark chandler]

I have been doing some reading on porting the m45, making the large triangle slightly larger and blocking the 2 smaller silencer triangles. There's a big debate whether this actually does anything, some say temps go down and boost increases some say it does nothing.
A localish machine shop said they can weld a plate over covering both silencer ports and it will be welded along the edge. They didn't want to weld straight over the Ali as they said it will probably distort. All in would be around £100 if I can dismantle the rotors from the casing.

Now that I've removed all I could even squeeze a m62 with a bit of work, would that be worth it more than playing around with the m45?

ITB's will give more power.

How the setup is at the moment requires more hp to drive it.

When the TB is open it's generating boost and using hp in the process, when it's closed it's using hp as it's being used as a massive vacum pump. Which created more heat and saps away more hp due to increased intake temps.

If you use ITB's you can run recirc which will effectively allow it to run in free air, and require less power to drive it

[Edited on 13/8/14 by jwhatley]

Does the bypass valve I have fitted not work in a similar way by recirc back to tb

Not really as your just recirculating hot air and making it hotter.

If the tbs were after the charger you could recirc fresh air back through to cool the charger.

quote:

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Originally posted by ettore bugatti
An intercooler would work, but my napkin calculations only suggests that will only give 10% extra power at your current boost.

Out of interest; what is your exhaust setup?

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Sorry, I should have said itb's with that charger will not give you more power, lose the charger and I expect you will gain.

M45 is small, an m60 would be more suitable, porting works best on gen3 chargers and earlier, do not weld up the silencer ports as the charger is made to close tolerances and it will distort. Gen 5 are pretty good out the box for port sizing.

Look in my archive for DB7 for more pictures, my car with m90 was rated at 335bhp although most struggled to make 300bhp, ported charger and exhaust reduced 30mph to 90mph in third from around 15 seconds to less than 9 seconds, on the rolling road 378bhp with torque over 300lb/ft from 2000rpm to a peak of 375lb/ft @ 4800 rpm so more than 25% improvement everywhere! The exhaust just eased above 5000rpm.

Removing the threaded casting and pay attention to the wide end for smooth airflow, the vanes push the air this way.

From this


Eaton supercharger -3

To this


blocked ports

To close the ports you need to make a plate to cover the area then epoxy in place, you then use epoxy mixed with Ali filings to backfill from where the rotors go.

It does make a difference I promise you, and remove casting flashing.

You tube

http://youtu.be/v4OfO40D72w

It did not whine like this with silencers open, inlet never got above 40 degrees, and it was a hot day in a sealed room.

[Edited on 15/8/14 by mark chandler]

I suppose I've got a choice of upgrading all for more power or enjoy the car as it is. It's not like it's slow, it is very quick and drives very well with constant power.
I'd be a bit worried using epoxy incase bits of it come apart and end up where it should be.

Small update!
I've decided to take the crazy step and start to upgrade my current setup. I've dismantled my current supercharger setup and purchased an eaton m64. I got it today so took it apart to check over it and started to offer it up in the car. I still need to buy an inlet plenum, intercooler, pipe work and a lot of custom work.
As you can see there's not much room at all and I'm already starting to think I've gone beyond my basic abilities.
I really don't know how I'm going to mount it to keep it secure.

Would it be possible to mount the Eaton on the other side of the engine/ above the exhaust and than rout the compressed air through a front mounted intercooler into the engine?

I did look at the exhaust side but there isint much room there at all, the alternator is currently there but that's not an issue.

Try and get hold of the outlet pipe from the mini, thats a strange shape and you can cut/modify it to your boost pipes.

BMW MINI COOPER S Supercharger Intercooler Inlet Intake Charge Boost Pipe 01-06

Can you not run the outlet of the charger downwards? then route it past the belt, in to the IC and then back up along the top to the plenum, look how the outlet comes out on this MX5 kit bellow in the pics. surely you could achieve the same?

This is a kit you can get the MX5 retrofit:

The mini outlet wouldn't work as the outlet on the m64 is larger. I currently have the m45 aswell but they don't match up at all. I was going to swap the snouts around as I need a 65mm pulley and that's what's on the m45.
Also that way it would eliminate the clutch on the m64 which I need to get rid off.

Why not intercool the M45 setup then? With a small pulley and IC you should be able to get 8-10 psi boost which is plenty for a standard engine.

Size wise there's not much at all in it, in fact overall length the m64 is smaller due to a small snout.
I been doing a lot of research into the 2 chargers and to produce the same boost the m45 has to be worked a lot harder therefore produces a lot of heat.
Also by doing the m64 it gives me options to upgrade engine parts at a later date and still have a more powerfull charger that can cope better.

Zetec with Eaton M62, not to sure about the pre heated inlet. But space is tight.



http://bristolkitcarclub.co.uk/smf2/index.php?topic=1917.0

[Edited on 19/8/14 by ettore bugatti]

Wow that is tight, I'm not too keen on having the charger and inlet right next to the exhaust. That must get stupid hot

As compared with what you have already?

Yeah agreed which is why I'm going to try and make this work with an intercooler

quote:

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Originally posted by ettore bugatti
Zetec with Eaton M64, not to sure about the pre heated inlet. But space is tight.



http://bristolkitcarclub.co.uk/smf2/index.php?topic=1917.0

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Small update, I purchased a griffin inlet plenum but unfortunately it's not going to fit with the supercharger
The griffin has straight tubes and I need them to be angled upwards to allow enough clearance for the charger.
Does anyone know if the spencer Ashley plenum is straight or angled up?
Here is how the charger will be best mounted (still need to work out how to fix mount it) and also the angle in which the tubes need to go. In these pictures there is an inlet adaptor plate that was been used previously.

I've just found the old advert for my car and it says that it has a cat converter. How can I identify whether it has or hasn't and would it be better without. I remember taking the can off a while ago and did weigh a fair bit

Here is a picture of inside the can nearest the engine

And inside the can nearest the tailpipe

That looks like a CAT to me

I thought it might be, is it worth fitting a can without a cat or will it not make too much difference?

Depends if its high flow or not.

It's probably restricting the air slightly. I can't say if you would notice it or not. It is probably making your exhaust quieter which needs to be considered.

It's been a long time since I started this thread and there has been done change.
My car now runs an m62 supercharger and intercooler. Was recently safely tuned at 226bhp at 7psi and inlet temps sit around 35'c, compared to the old setup which was around 80'c at 6psi.
I'm currently looking at getting another smaller pulley made for the supercharger to play around with possibly more boost

That's some decent power!

Driving experience should be completely different.

Next stop 12 psi and 270ish horses?

Yeah it's certainly fun.
The smaller pulley will push it a little more