steveyb
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 posted on 13/8/13 at 10:09 AM |
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3.0 v6 duratec tuning or up grading
ive been thinking of replacing my 24v cosworth v6 engine with a more modern engine in my sierra track car.
i have been thinking of a 3.0 duratec v6 but dont know if this would be a good way to go?
what can be done to them to gain more power?
i think it would be best to go with the AJ30 from the s type jag as it comes in rwd layout with a manual getrag 221 box.
what management to run it? megajolt? or better with likes of omex, DTA, emerald?
what cams are good for them?
has any one on here fitted one to a kit car?
is it worth fitting throttle bodies to it as i know its a good upgrade on the 2.0 duratec to ditch the standard inlet manifold
maybe even fit motorbike throttle bodies?
all info and suggestions welcome
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mcerd1
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| posted on 13/8/13 at 11:26 AM |
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the 2.5 ford probe V6 on an MX5 box seems to be flavour of the month just now
with ITB's it should be about the same power as your 2.9 but alot lighter
and you can always turbo / supercharge it 
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steveyb
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| posted on 13/8/13 at 11:43 AM |
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I had the car on a rolling road and got 181bhp and 318Nm or 235lb/ft so with the 3.0 duratec I'd get up to the 240bhp but be down on torque.
As for turboing and supercharging I could do that to the 24v.
Maybe I'm better off sticking to the 24v Cosworth an sticking 2 turbos on it, something like 2 td04's or something like that?
But what is a good aftermarket management to run it all? Would mega jolt do it or better to pay the extra for emerald or something?
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mcerd1
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| posted on 13/8/13 at 12:01 PM |
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megajolt is spark only - so it's not much use unless your going to run carb's
megasquirt would do it if you like playing with that stuff, if not then your probably looking at omex, emerald, etc....
that applies to pretty much any engine you go for - even your current one
I take it your current engine is a BOA ? (rather than the later BOB)
way back when I was looking at ford V6's someone did once tell me you could get a bit more out of a BOA by fitting the BOB's cam's -
not sure what's involved in this swap though as I decided against the ford V6 option
also remember that the quoted figures for the 3.0 duratec will be with its OE injection - I'm fairly sure this is the engine that RazMan used in
his car with his own custom ITB setup - so I think he'd be the best one to ask about tuning it:
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/members/RazMan/
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big_wasa
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| posted on 13/8/13 at 12:33 PM |
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I was going to have a play with a jag lump because as you say it's a rwd 240 bhp v6 out of the box.
I was going to have a go at the standard ecu as it's more or less free.
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steveyb
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| posted on 13/8/13 at 04:09 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mcerd1
megajolt is spark only - so it's not much use unless your going to run carb's
megasquirt would do it if you like playing with that stuff, if not then your probably looking at omex, emerald, etc....
that applies to pretty much any engine you go for - even your current one
I take it your current engine is a BOA ? (rather than the later BOB)
way back when I was looking at ford V6's someone did once tell me you could get a bit more out of a BOA by fitting the BOB's cam's -
not sure what's involved in this swap though as I decided against the ford V6 option
also remember that the quoted figures for the 3.0 duratec will be with its OE injection - I'm fairly sure this is the engine that RazMan used in
his car with his own custom ITB setup - so I think he'd be the best one to ask about tuning it:
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/members/RazMan/
No, not going carbs, I would rather not go mega squirt as there's not many tuners around me will work with it.
I was looking at the emerald k6 ecu... Need to get saving, where would be the cheapest place to buy this ecu?
Yes current engine is BOA, and yes if you change cams to later it can make a little difference, I can't remember if its all 4 or just 2
inlet?
How do the v6 duratecs take to turboing on standard internals on say 8-10 psi of boost.
Looking into it I might be better sticking with the Cosworth an putting a single turbo with a link pipe from the other bank.
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PhillipM
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| posted on 13/8/13 at 06:13 PM |
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They do free up a lot on throttle bodies, and yes, the stock cams are rather mild, decent cams/headwork and bodies with the appropriate manifold
should see you around the 300 level, with a nice broad torque curve.
If you want more than that you need pistons and rods really so you can use more revs.
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steveyb
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| posted on 13/8/13 at 10:20 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by PhillipM
They do free up a lot on throttle bodies, and yes, the stock cams are rather mild, decent cams/headwork and bodies with the appropriate manifold
should see you around the 300 level, with a nice broad torque curve.
If you want more than that you need pistons and rods really so you can use more revs.
Who does cams for the v6 duratec? Or is it more so the American market?
And again is it the same for pistons and rods?
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PhillipM
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| posted on 13/8/13 at 10:29 PM |
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Well, they're definately available for the AJ (yes, mainly US made, but most of them sell on ebay) these days, from both Pautner and Wossner so
I assume they would fit the normal duratec too. I think Arrow do them too but not sure one the price.
Catcams and Piper do cams for them, and solid lifter conversions.
[Edited on 13/8/13 by PhillipM]
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steveyb
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| posted on 14/8/13 at 01:44 PM |
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got some good news, i was talking to the tuner and he said he will work with mega squirt.
so what is my best option for mega squirt ecu?
buy a pro / plug and play if available?
buy components and build my own?
again the ecu will need to be for a v6 engine either cosworth or duratec
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steveyb
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| posted on 14/8/13 at 01:57 PM |
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had a look there and came across this
http://trigger-wheels.com/store/contents/en-uk/d31.html
but what options would i need to be taking with it?
built in lamba?
wide band etc?
this is all new to me but i'm willing to learn it all
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alfablack
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| posted on 14/8/13 at 07:10 PM |
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Hi I have an aj3.0 v6 to go into a sylva stylus
240hp + and 215ft lbs
that is with 4 cats on as well. remove them and you are going to increase hp straight away
the jag and mazda are the same as in variable cam timing and solid lifters. the ford and Lincoln use the same
if you are going to use it in anything else you are better of using the mondeo st220 sump and pick up.
cams and verniers are available at piper so you can junk the variable cam timing if you want.
on throttle bodies with stock pistons and on programmable ecu I know of a ginetta g21 doing 300hp and on the data logger it as shown 9000rpm on down
shift this has done 2 years in this form.
the canems is a good ecu with the provision for switchable maps,
pistons are available from summit racing in the states for oval and street racing and are quoted at 146 dollars for the set postage would probably be
twice that though
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PhillipM
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| posted on 14/8/13 at 07:31 PM |
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If you're going to take it to 9krpm and go silly with it 360bhp is doable for an engine with a check over once every 12 months.
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alfablack
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| posted on 14/8/13 at 08:06 PM |
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they did not take it to 9 grand it showed that on the data logger on down shifting on some occasions this is a standardish engine doing 300hp. and
this car is being raced and as not been touched for 2 years. so for road use very reliable power.
the comparison to the boa or bob engine is half the weight and better performance for less money spent modern designed the base is already there you
just need to exploit it
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alfablack
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| posted on 14/8/13 at 08:11 PM |
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Oh and it as a 89mm bore so no you cant use the 2.0 or 2.3 duratec parts. they used the crank from the mondeo 2.5
to keep the stroke down you can mix and match and end up with a 3.5 which is what they call the cyclone engine that ginetta use in the g50 in gt class
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steveyb
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| posted on 14/8/13 at 10:57 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by alfablack
Hi I have an aj3.0 v6 to go into a sylva stylus
240hp + and 215ft lbs
that is with 4 cats on as well. remove them and you are going to increase hp straight away
the jag and mazda are the same as in variable cam timing and solid lifters. the ford and Lincoln use the same
if you are going to use it in anything else you are better of using the mondeo st220 sump and pick up.
cams and verniers are available at piper so you can junk the variable cam timing if you want.
on throttle bodies with stock pistons and on programmable ecu I know of a ginetta g21 doing 300hp and on the data logger it as shown 9000rpm on down
shift this has done 2 years in this form.
the canems is a good ecu with the provision for switchable maps,
pistons are available from summit racing in the states for oval and street racing and are quoted at 146 dollars for the set postage would probably be
twice that though
What throttle bodies were used on that engine at 300bhp and what cams were being used? Or where they standard cams?
That would probably still not be bad price for pistons.
If I knew what all I needed I could probably get shipped to my aunts house in New York as I plan to go out in a few weeks time to visit.
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steveyb
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| posted on 14/8/13 at 10:59 PM |
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And do yo happen to know what the torque output was for it?
[Edited on 14/8/13 by steveyb]
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steveyb
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| posted on 14/8/13 at 11:19 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by alfablack
they did not take it to 9 grand it showed that on the data logger on down shifting on some occasions this is a standardish engine doing 300hp. and
this car is being raced and as not been touched for 2 years. so for road use very reliable power.
the comparison to the boa or bob engine is half the weight and better performance for less money spent modern designed the base is already there you
just need to exploit it
It won't be in an everyday car so, only used for track /drift days
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PhillipM
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| posted on 14/8/13 at 11:49 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by steveyb
And do yo happen to know what the torque output was for it?
The race one I know of is about 265lb/ft, ~360bhp, build for endurance use, so probably a nice build for a track toy too if you have the cash for it.
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steveyb
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| posted on 15/8/13 at 10:13 AM |
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found a place selling the canems ecu
http://www.lloydspecialistdevelopments.co.uk/canems-6-cylinder-fully-programmable-ecu
ive never heard of this ecu so at that money i think i would pay the extra and go emerald k6
or is this a better ecu than the emerald?
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alfablack
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| posted on 16/8/13 at 08:47 AM |
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Hi throttle bodies they used titan purely because of clearance under bonnet but jenvey do a full kit ready to bolt on
to start they where on standard cams but fitted verniers to remove the variable cam.
it is a very good ecu it as switchable maps so you can flick between road and a race setup.and straight forward to setup with lots of help from them.
an ecu is an ecu they all supply the same thing inputs and outputs it just depends how easy they are to use
megasquirt does the same thing you would be paying 2grand for a motec system to do with the exception of some data logging and maybe a few extras.
Dave at emerald is very good and knows is stuff and can help with your setup he can supply and fit plus programme and he wont have your pants down
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andygtt
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| posted on 17/8/13 at 10:41 AM |
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My duratec 3.0l is running 700bhp and 590ftlb in a mid engine application so they are extremely tuneable.
If you prepared to go turbocharged you can boost a standard st220 engine to 390bhp with only changing the con rods (I know lots of second hand arrow
ones for sale) and some cheap spray jets to cool pistons (new cams not needed or flowed heads).... I'm running a motec in mine but most people
run an mbe unit that can be got for under £500.
I've bought a jag version to look at using the head which is superior, but only real gain would be high end rpm and I already rev to 8000rpm
Have you guessed what car uses a turbocharged version of this engine as standard?
Btw the 2.5l version isn't anything like as tenable as the 3l
Andy
please redefine your limits.
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steveyb
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| posted on 19/8/13 at 10:01 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by andygtt
My duratec 3.0l is running 700bhp and 590ftlb in a mid engine application so they are extremely tuneable.
If you prepared to go turbocharged you can boost a standard st220 engine to 390bhp with only changing the con rods (I know lots of second hand arrow
ones for sale) and some cheap spray jets to cool pistons (new cams not needed or flowed heads).... I'm running a motec in mine but most people
run an mbe unit that can be got for under £500.
I've bought a jag version to look at using the head which is superior, but only real gain would be high end rpm and I already rev to 8000rpm
Have you guessed what car uses a turbocharged version of this engine as standard?
Btw the 2.5l version isn't anything like as tenable as the 3l
700bhp you say, do tell me more :-)
I'd be happy enough with around the 400bhp mark for now.
I've been thinking more on the aj30 jag engine rather than the st220 engine, but is there any difference in the conrods in two engines?
What's the story on the arrow rods? And I'd prob be interested in some of these and the spray jets if you could let me know please.
I've been looking at the vipec v44 ecu as it can control of up to four variable cams and support for engines up to twelve cylinders, and has
anti lag which could be useful.
[Edited on 19/8/13 by steveyb]
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andygtt
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| posted on 20/8/13 at 09:48 AM |
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The jag bottom end is essentially the same as the mondeo one (so ford st220 box just bolts up), the stock ford pistons have been taken to
500bhp...spec for a 500bhp st220 engine is shorter arrow con rods, spray jets and turbo / turbos to suit.... Everything else, cams, crank, pistons,
heads etc are all completely stock st220... Of cause you need manifolds, fueling, ecu etc etc which also costs but you need that on any engine of same
power.
To make a reliable well proven 400bhp, you will only need the spray jets and con rods... This is the changes noble made to the engine from the ford
factory units to make 352bhp, remap and mod to fuel pump sees 400bhp in them all the time... May sound like a bodge but there are literally hundreds
of cars out there running this spec and it works.
Also the looms are well proven and easy to copy, 2nd hand mbe ecu's with maps are available and clutch packages are available.... If you lack
room you could simply fit a single turbo as I have done, any suggestions that it would be laggy are wrong, mine is actually significantly less leggy
than the twin turbo setup I took off and yet it makes more power than the twins could get close to doing. It's all about spacing it correctly
and getting the entire package working together.
I removed the twin turbos off of mine and went for a single turbo option but the engine is heavily modified with different con rods again, forged
pistons, reground cams, flowed heads etc etc etc.
I bought a jag engine and stripped it to compare with my ford v6, I have a motec m800 running my car so can do the variable valve timing, but just
couldn't see the gain to justify to extra complexity and development. Mine revs to 8000rpm already and is actually capped at 700bhp because I
can't find a road box to take the torque... I've no doubt the engine would make 750-800bhp if I pushed it, was tempted while on dyno but
decided to be sensible lol
[Edited on 20/8/13 by andygtt]
Andy
please redefine your limits.
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steveyb
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| posted on 20/8/13 at 12:40 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by andygtt
The jag bottom end is essentially the same as the mondeo one (so ford st220 box just bolts up), the stock ford pistons have been taken to
500bhp...spec for a 500bhp st220 engine is shorter arrow con rods, spray jets and turbo / turbos to suit.... Everything else, cams, crank, pistons,
heads etc are all completely stock st220... Of cause you need manifolds, fueling, ecu etc etc which also costs but you need that on any engine of same
power.
To make a reliable well proven 400bhp, you will only need the spray jets and con rods... This is the changes noble made to the engine from the ford
factory units to make 352bhp, remap and mod to fuel pump sees 400bhp in them all the time... May sound like a bodge but there are literally hundreds
of cars out there running this spec and it works.
Also the looms are well proven and easy to copy, 2nd hand mbe ecu's with maps are available and clutch packages are available.... If you lack
room you could simply fit a single turbo as I have done, any suggestions that it would be laggy are wrong, mine is actually significantly less leggy
than the twin turbo setup I took off and yet it makes more power than the twins could get close to doing. It's all about spacing it correctly
and getting the entire package working together.
I removed the twin turbos off of mine and went for a single turbo option but the engine is heavily modified with different con rods again, forged
pistons, reground cams, flowed heads etc etc etc.
I bought a jag engine and stripped it to compare with my ford v6, I have a motec m800 running my car so can do the variable valve timing, but just
couldn't see the gain to justify to extra complexity and development. Mine revs to 8000rpm already and is actually capped at 700bhp because I
can't find a road box to take the torque... I've no doubt the engine would make 750-800bhp if I pushed it, was tempted while on dyno but
decided to be sensible lol
[Edited on 20/8/13 by andygtt]
It’s the single turbo route I want to go with it, and I like to hear that you have less lag with it.
The manifolds I can make up myself so just need to look up the best way of routing the pipework as you say about getting the spacing correct.
I looked more into the s type jag’s and I have found one but it’s a 1999 model? I thought the s types where only from 2000 – 2009. So I looked into
this and found out
The first-generation 3.0L Duratec blocks produced from 1996 through 1998 can be identified by the “F5DE” casting number on the engine block. In 1999,
Ford changed to a slightly different casting (XW4E) which has different coolant passages on the right side that require a different head gasket.
Install an old style head gasket on this engine and it will leak coolant. The following year, Ford revised the block casting slightly and reduced the
size of the knock sensor threads from 12 mm to 8 mm. Other than that, the 1999 and newer blocks are interchangeable. The 2000-’04 blocks use casting
number XW4E-BA.”
Flat-top pistons with a slight dome are used without valve reliefs in the older 3.0L Duratec engines that do not have variable valve timing, but
pistons with four valve reliefs are required for additional valve clearance in the newer versions with VVT.
I don’t know if this applies to the AJ30 jag engine or if all the s type jags in cluding the 99 model use variable valve timing? And if the 99 model
is still 240 hp (179 kW; 243 PS) and 216 lb•ft (293 N•m) as the 200-2009 ones are? I’m getting a lot of mixed info on it.
As for your gearbox, I’m not sure what your engine – gearbox setup is with it being mid engine but the skyline gearbox is a strong up grade some
people use on cars. This prob wouldn’t suit as your gearbox may be more like the audi or Passat style setup with the gearbox? Have you a link to any
of your build?
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