ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 2/5/06 at 09:34 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
Its nout about ego's its about facts rather than opinions...
Hmm, I dont see any facts here that prove a TRT leads to less gearbox failures, just your opinions. They may be based on experience, but so
are mine.....
Anyway, I'll say it once more, I don't argue that TRTs will help to a degree and I'd fit one if doing another build, but until I see
some facts and figures I won't be convinced they are essential, regardless of the theory. My car has been driven hard often enough on
track (I could quote some lap times if you still wish to question how hard but it seems rather pointless), and Ive seen enough cars still have gearbox
breakages depite a cush/TRT being fitted to convince me that a TRT is only part of the story, and that there's lots of other factors that cause
gearbox failures other than simply having a TRT or not.
Getting fully back on topic, the R1 gets my vote 
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G.Man
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| posted on 3/5/06 at 04:49 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by CaLviNx
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisGamlin
Not really no, with a slipper clutch you get very little / no engine braking.
Bike engines in the main by their very design have very little engine braking anyway, so the addition of a slipper clutch is not going to make the
issue much worse now is it.
Regards
They have enough to lock the rear wheel...
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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wildchild
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| posted on 3/5/06 at 08:46 AM |
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At risk off encouraging this even further off topic...
Slipper clutches will be tuned to disengage at a certain torque. I would expect this to be above what you would get simply by rolling off the
throttle (otherwise you would lose a lot of mid-corner control) but below what it would take to lock up the back wheel. So I think if you were
braking from say sixth down to second your first couple of shifts would probably take place before the slipper clutch 'reacts'.
And bike engines certainly do generate plenty of engine braking in a bike (hence the need for slipper clutches). I imagine it feels like not a lot
when you put it in a car though.
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 3/5/06 at 11:40 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by CaLviNx
...and feel the statement about an ego coming into play by another forum user a cheap swipe
Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't but if deemed a cheap swipe then you have to acknowledge there were a few aimed at me before that which may have
led to me retaliating. 
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G.Man
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| posted on 3/5/06 at 02:53 PM |
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LMAO
Not gonna get into the ego thing, its not what these forums are about...
Chris, I am sure your experiences led you to believe what you said, and I am also sure that you are right about other matters other than a TRT..
Yes some slipper clutchs can be tuned for a certain torque, but very few are actually tuned, most have a fixed ramp size and thats that..
The actual torque limit is generated by the thickness of the clutch plates used, and gradually lessens as the race progresses... but in most cases, as
soon as you back off the throttle the clutch starts to slip and reduce the amount of engine braking applied...
I want a holeshot turbo for my zx12r
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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wildchild
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| posted on 3/5/06 at 03:29 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
Yes some slipper clutchs can be tuned for a certain torque, but very few are actually tuned, most have a fixed ramp size and thats that..
I meant more "tuned" by the designer rather than tuned by the user. In which case I think what I said makes sense.
I would have thought something which disengaged as soon as the throttle was closed (even in high gears) would be bloody difficult to ride, but
I've never ridden one, so I'll concede to your experience.
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Peteff
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| posted on 3/5/06 at 04:04 PM |
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I find on the bike that if I let the revs drop in a high gear it will change down smooth enough without clutch till it reaches the gear that the
revs/speed are appropriate for, if you see what I mean. The only thing I've ever driven with an overrun clutch was a Saab, 99 I think it was.
I'd fitted a new sill and was taking it back when I got to a roundabout and lifted off and nothing happened, which caused a slight panic .
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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pdw709
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| posted on 3/5/06 at 04:05 PM |
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If cost is an issue then you could always consider a Honda CBR1000.
Okay it may only be 125BHP but this can easily upped by 10-15% via rejetting. But it makes up for its lack of BHP with a good deal of torque and in a
light weight car such as a Striker i.e. <400kg it pulls VERY strongly.
On the plus side its an extremely strong unit, common and very cheap - a couple of hundred quid.
Its not the top of the performance league, but its got enough power for me to handle!
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 3/5/06 at 04:51 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
Not gonna get into the ego thing, its not what these forums are about...
Couldnt agree more
Chris, I am sure your experiences led you to believe what you said, and I am also sure that you are right about other matters other than a TRT..
Whether Im right or wrong about other things has no relevence, Id just wouldnt mind knowing what in your humble opinion have I said that's
incorrect about a TRT?
[Edited on 3/5/06 by ChrisGamlin]
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Mezzz
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| posted on 3/5/06 at 05:06 PM |
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Thread stealers
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 3/5/06 at 05:17 PM |
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Ah, well that serves ya right for asking a question thats probably only been asked 50 times before without doing a search first  (joking! )
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G.Man
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| posted on 3/5/06 at 05:47 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by wildchild
quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
Yes some slipper clutchs can be tuned for a certain torque, but very few are actually tuned, most have a fixed ramp size and thats that..
I meant more "tuned" by the designer rather than tuned by the user. In which case I think what I said makes sense.
I would have thought something which disengaged as soon as the throttle was closed (even in high gears) would be bloody difficult to ride, but
I've never ridden one, so I'll concede to your experience.
What you miss with a bike, is that the VAST majority of riders never touch the rear brake, and all braking is done with the front brake, the rear is
merely used to "turn" the bike under a late overtake...
Therefore, when hard on the front brake, changing down applies too much braking to the rear wheel.. necessitating the use of the clutch... excessive
clutch use agravates lower arm pump up, so is undesirable... This is why slipper clutchs are pretty important, engine braking just isnt required or
attractive on a race bike...
Chris,
Nothing you have said is strictly wrong, just understating the benefits IMO of a TRT prop... By other matters other than a TRT, what I meant to show
was that I agreed with you, mechanical sympathy etc is another very important factor in GB failures...
We have blown many R1 boxes on our race bikes, before we switched to the GSXR, and now, finally gone back to the R1 for 2005/2006 as the gearbox has
been improved substantially over the earlier models, but you appear to have had good luck with yours, which I believe, may lead you to believe that
the TRT is less of a necessity than I believe...
Thats merely it... in my estimation, 80-90% of BEC users will benefit from a TRT, 10-20% wont benefit as much because they have much better mechanical
sympathy...
Mezz
out of the 2 you mentioned, the blade will make for the easiest install, and the ZX9 will give better BHP...
Sorry for the hijack, but the TRT debate is slightly more interesting than another "what bike engine" especially when we have pretty much
all said R1 and you are now off on the Blade/ZX9r...lol
We have had 175bhp at the rear wheel with a dynojetted carb model r1 along with a kit igniter box, advanced ignition rotor, laser race system and
piper cam kit with some very mild port profiling...
Cant recommend the laser race system highly enough... gave 12bhp on its own!!!
PS. The biggest contributory factor to the bike engines increased engine braking is its primary reduction... the biggest reason why they have little
engine braking is that the front wheel takes all the weight transfer, and a lot of engine braking is lost through wheel slip...
[Edited on 3/5/06 by G.Man]
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 3/5/06 at 07:53 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
Chris,
Nothing you have said is strictly wrong, just understating the benefits IMO of a TRT prop... By other matters other than a TRT, what I meant to show
was that I agreed with you, mechanical sympathy etc is another very important factor in GB failures...
We have blown many R1 boxes on our race bikes, before we switched to the GSXR, and now, finally gone back to the R1 for 2005/2006 as the gearbox has
been improved substantially over the earlier models, but you appear to have had good luck with yours, which I believe, may lead you to believe that
the TRT is less of a necessity than I believe...
Thats merely it... in my estimation, 80-90% of BEC users will benefit from a TRT, 10-20% wont benefit as much because they have much better mechanical
sympathy...
Fair enough, I certainly dont question the experiences youve had with the race bikes and my post was wasnt to suggest that TRTs aren't
worthwhile, just to reassure Chris (zxrlocost) or anyone else that if they had already bought their props without a TRT, it wasnt the end of the
world. When you hear experiences of gearbox breakages in race bikes despite having slipper clutches and presumably some kind of cush in the rear
wheel, that also possibly suggests that if ridden/driven unsympathetically (as you likely need to do when racing), damage / breakage will often occur
regardless of the precautions put in place to prevent them.
I certainly agree though there are some benefits to be had in the majority if not all BEC installs. I wouldnt recommend someone not having one and
I'd be the first to admit that it would probably reduce shock / wear in my own gearbox to some extent too, but not to the extent that I feel its
essential. I do think Im being done a slight disservice though by suggesting my opinions are just based on experience with my car alone. Its not just
based on the R1 either as my car obviously had a blade in it for 3 of those years, as have several trackday friends, an engine that are fairly
renowned in RGB circles for being a comparative weak point.
Anyway, if you dont mind we'll agree to agree that they are certainly a worthwhile fitment, but that we can't quite agree on the
amount of benefit in relation to other factors like linkage precision and driving style etc
Cheers
Chris
[Edited on 3/5/06 by ChrisGamlin]
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G.Man
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| posted on 3/5/06 at 08:04 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ChrisGamlin
Anyway, if you dont mind we'll agree to agree that they are certainly a worthwhile fitment, but that we can't quite agree on the
amount of benefit in relation to other factors like linkage precision and driving style etc
Cheers
Chris
[Edited on 3/5/06 by ChrisGamlin]
I am happy with that as well
[Edited on 3/5/06 by G.Man]
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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G.Man
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| posted on 3/5/06 at 08:44 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by chris mason
just fit a car engine and have done with it
Chris
TBH I was gonna fit a 2ltr cossie motor with around 350bhp, but the import tax to cyprus was £7000 so I went with the 1200cc zx12r, with a lot of
hassle for and changing about for MNR, and saved myself £6400..
Still wonder to myself what it would have been like, certainly a lot easier to aututest with... lol
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 3/5/06 at 08:45 PM |
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Don't get us started on those heavy old boat anchors
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zxrlocost
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| posted on 4/5/06 at 08:46 AM |
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thanks for the advice on the TRT something to consider
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wildchild
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| posted on 4/5/06 at 08:49 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
What you miss with a bike, is that the VAST majority of riders never touch the rear brake, and all braking is done with the front brake, the rear is
merely used to "turn" the bike under a late overtake...
Therefore, when hard on the front brake, changing down applies too much braking to the rear wheel.. necessitating the use of the clutch... excessive
clutch use agravates lower arm pump up, so is undesirable... This is why slipper clutchs are pretty important, engine braking just isnt required or
attractive on a race bike...
I know all this. I ride 10,000+ miles a year on various bikes. I know the theory behind slipper clutches. I know what it feels like when you shift
down through the gears on a bike with a conventional clutch. I am not 'missing' anything.
What I was suggesting was that ZERO engine braking would not be desirable as you would lose some of the ability to control the bike by rolling on and
off the throttle mid corner. A little bit of engine braking would still be desirable. I have no idea how much this 'little bit' is,
which is why I was prepared to concede to you above on the grounds that you seem to have some experience of race bikes.
Have you actually ridden a bike with a slipper clutch?
Again, apologies for veering off topic. Use a ZZR1100 engine. They must be great, I've got one! 
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G.Man
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| posted on 4/5/06 at 02:38 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by wildchild
quote:
Originally posted by G.Man
What you miss with a bike, is that the VAST majority of riders never touch the rear brake, and all braking is done with the front brake, the rear is
merely used to "turn" the bike under a late overtake...
Therefore, when hard on the front brake, changing down applies too much braking to the rear wheel.. necessitating the use of the clutch... excessive
clutch use agravates lower arm pump up, so is undesirable... This is why slipper clutchs are pretty important, engine braking just isnt required or
attractive on a race bike...
I know all this. I ride 10,000+ miles a year on various bikes. I know the theory behind slipper clutches. I know what it feels like when you shift
down through the gears on a bike with a conventional clutch. I am not 'missing' anything.
What I was suggesting was that ZERO engine braking would not be desirable as you would lose some of the ability to control the bike by rolling on and
off the throttle mid corner. A little bit of engine braking would still be desirable. I have no idea how much this 'little bit' is,
which is why I was prepared to concede to you above on the grounds that you seem to have some experience of race bikes.
Have you actually ridden a bike with a slipper clutch?
Again, apologies for veering off topic. Use a ZZR1100 engine. They must be great, I've got one!
Yes I have ridden a bike with a slipper clutch, They are not for road use....
And a racer would NEVER roll off the throttle mid corner anyway... the weight transfer would probably kill him..
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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chaos999
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| posted on 4/5/06 at 02:50 PM |
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Poor chap, just wanted to know what engine to choose....
Triumph obviously, cos it's BRITISH well maybe :-))
Clutch, pah... lockup clutch if I could afford one. They have neat adjuster to chose the % slip to allow :-)
TRT, well added one on the striker and great 'feel' improvement around town. But it was never bad at top revs, all was smooth if revs were
right :-)
Now the challenger has no trt, only notice it round town with 1 - 2nd gear, but tend to drive round towns and then can't feel or hear much
:-)
Simon
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chaos999
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| posted on 4/5/06 at 03:27 PM |
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Slipper - same as adjustable lock up? or not?
Lockup kits
Simon
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G.Man
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| posted on 4/5/06 at 03:31 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by chaos999
Slipper - same as adjustable lock up? or not?
Lockup kits
Simon
Not the same, they are used to aid pull off..
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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tks
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| posted on 4/5/06 at 03:50 PM |
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mhhhh
on the legal road i think they are dangerous...
also rideing on hills etc. will be bad when going downwards without engine brake...
over here there are hills you go up with your Vauxhall Corsa up the hill you 100
you press clutch and put it in neutral
i call it eco mode..albeit you have to be very very on your hood because the km/h will mark and reach the 120+km/h..
(who does the math about the bhp required for this??)
imagine you go with your bike with 0% motor brake well then you will need to brake that amount of bhp with your brakes! also it is a very long part
(you could guess it) sow your brakes will gonna get up to temp..and won´t like that.... wich will result in fading and that will result in less grip
but when you notice that you will apply more power wich will result in more temp and that will result...
well anyway..
i think that on the circuit you need to adapt your driveing style to it...
because when i´m driveing in the car (tintop) i never push clutch and then the
brakes in fact it gives the sensation that your brakes aren´t working...
(because you need to press harder on them)
dunno if a diesel has a bigger flywheel then a petrol car but i was more thinking in compression ratio and strok lenght..
concerning engine brake amount...
because of its small stroke the bike engine would be just a air pump and in fact the diesel lump would become a compressor??
Tks
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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cossey
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| posted on 4/5/06 at 04:55 PM |
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you should be using the brakes to slow down not the engine, if if you are fifth and have to slow down to second apply the brakes then as the revs drop
too low to still be in fifth out the clutch down change into second and as the speed gets to what you want in second let out the clutch.
slipper clutchs dont remove all engine braking they just reduce it to prevent the engine overrevving on down changes.
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G.Man
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| posted on 4/5/06 at 07:08 PM |
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cossey, did you actually read the rest of the thread????
Opinions are like backsides..
Everyone has one, nobody wants to hear it and only other peoples stink!
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