jacko
|
| posted on 21/8/07 at 07:52 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Fatboy Dave
I've seen them and I have one; they're still horrible. They're also the reason why I decided to start making my own and refuse to
make them in the same style as theirs. The effort involved in making those runners is far greater than the effort required to space the carbs.
Dave have you any photos of your manifolds so we can see the differance please
Jacko
|
|
|
|
|
Fatboy Dave
|
| posted on 21/8/07 at 08:11 PM |
|
|
Ford Zetec top, Vauxhall XE bottom.
[Edited on 21/8/07 by Fatboy Dave]
Dave
Stop the planet, I want to get off
|
PLEASE NOTE: This user is a trader who has not signed up for the LocostBuilders registration scheme. If this post is advertising a commercial product or service, please report it by clicking here.
|
jacko
|
| posted on 21/8/07 at 08:58 PM |
|
|
Thank you nice job i see the difference know what carbs fit them manifolds ?
can you spread all bike carbs ? just curious thanks Graham
|
|
|
Fatboy Dave
|
| posted on 21/8/07 at 09:08 PM |
|
|
Just about anything fits - I've used everything from 600 Fazers, all GSXR carbs and throttle bodies, ZZR1100s, GPZs, ZX6s and ZX9s, and R1
carbs. All have been used with my manifolds without any complaints either by me or by customers.
ZX6 and ZX9, R1 and GSXR K1-3 throttle bodies can all be spaced. Not got my hands on any blade carbs yet. I make spacer kits for the ZX, R1 and GSXRs.
Dave
Stop the planet, I want to get off
|
PLEASE NOTE: This user is a trader who has not signed up for the LocostBuilders registration scheme. If this post is advertising a commercial product or service, please report it by clicking here.
|
DarrenW
|
| posted on 21/8/07 at 09:28 PM |
|
|
I may be wrong Dave but when i weighed up all the pros and cons, considering your carbs are so much easier to make they didnt seem that much cheaper.
That then left me with the extra hassle of respacing the carbs which overall made boggs the better choice.
Do you have any data to back up your claims that the Boggs manifolds are really that terrible and that yours are better? Maybe some flow figures and
scientifically proven up back to back RR testing under controlled conditions may convince me?
A man i once had the misfortune of working for used to say - 'In god we trust, for all others we need data'
Dont get me wrong - what you are saying makes sense to me and is something i have already thought myself, but in real life just how much of a
difference does it actually make????
BMW say a carbon roof lowers the centre of gravity on a car but dont say how much. If it is only 5mm and worth maybe 0.1secs on a track but costs 10
grand more, on a road / occasional track car is it really worth it?
A Bugatti Veyron costs a few quid. Its insanely fast but im never likely to go that fast on UK roads. Lets say its a good investment and only
depreciates 5% in the 1st year. I could probs buy a new M5 or 2nd hand M6 and write it off and still be better off.
So in summary - can anyone prove the differences and would i be able to notice / justify the difference in cost:hassle??
Some people make their own chassis and love their cars. Some people get McLaren to make theirs. It doesnt mean they get any more or less enjoyment
from the cars.
I guess im on my high horse tonight but so often do i hear people dismissing others efforts without being able to prove with tangible data or having
direct development exerience of the discussion in hand.
So please - if anone is going to make a bold / possibly controversial statement can you at least offer some data to back up your claims
[Edited on 21/8/07 by DarrenW]
[Edited on 21/8/07 by DarrenW]
|
|
|
Fatboy Dave
|
| posted on 21/8/07 at 09:51 PM |
|
|
I never claimed mine were better in any way, merely the Bogg Bros et al (as they are by no means the only ones that do it) was horrible.
What I believe is a different thing, but I tend to keep my beliefs to myself; which is to say, I haven't said what you've implied.
As for figures, no I don't actually. I have the manifolds to offer, if someone would like to flow bench them though. I will public state that I
will eat my left knacker, if my Zetec manifold flowed less than the Bogg Zetec manifold that I have; purely because of the fact thatlooking ddown the
end of a runner through a carb, all you can see is a wall. That's the first thing the fuel air mix will hit, leading to no small amount of fuel
dropping out of atomisation and condensing on the runner wall.
Dave
Stop the planet, I want to get off
|
PLEASE NOTE: This user is a trader who has not signed up for the LocostBuilders registration scheme. If this post is advertising a commercial product or service, please report it by clicking here.
|
MikeRJ
|
| posted on 21/8/07 at 10:02 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Peteff
Is everyone in search of the ideal solution and unwilling to compromise a little bit? There are millions of cars running round with less than perfect
induction systems and no one worries a bit about them as long as they start and run..
My thoughts on this is why bother going for a performance induction system if it's design is somewhat flawed?
I'm not a perfectionist, but if I were making a manifold I wouldn't consider the Boggs design if the carbs/TB's could be spaced
apart, mainly from the difficulty of fabrication but also because I would want the best performance I could get within reason.
Obviously if the carbs are very difficult or impossible to re-space, then you have no choice but to design the manifold around them.
[Edited on 21/8/07 by MikeRJ]
|
|
|
DarrenW
|
| posted on 21/8/07 at 10:06 PM |
|
|
Sorry Dave, maybe i misheard. I thought you said the Boggs et al manifolds were terrible and you wouldnt do them like that - ie you were doing them
better.
To be honest i too would expect a short straight runner manifold to flow better but i would also expect such a simpler manifold to be a fraction of
the price. Maybe the carbs are easier to respace but for me a consideration was that i didnt have to do it. I would still be interested to know what
the real differences are in terms of power delivery, torque and drivability to understand if its just marginal or fundamentally significant.
Reason for choosing the route i have taken is to get a cost effective alternative to webers and an improvement over the 38DGAS. Do you think i will
achieve this goal? Id rather know now if ive done something wrong before ive done the switch.
|
|
|
Fatboy Dave
|
| posted on 21/8/07 at 10:08 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Peteff
Is everyone in search of the ideal solution and unwilling to compromise a little bit?
Yes?
quote:
There are millions of cars running round with less than perfect induction systems and no one worries a bit about them as long as they start and
run..
Errrm, not exactly. Ford spent many pounds on the Zetec (e.g.) making sure it produced decent power within a reasonably compact, quiet and cheap
package inlet wise. Just because it's not tuned length DTH throttle bodies from the manufacturer, doesn't mean it's flawed.
Anything where I can't see the inlet port of the head due to a 135 degree bend immediately after the carb unit is NOT going to sit highly on my
list of advised products when it'd be easier to space the carbs out - especially as with straight runners you're making the manifolds to
the bore spacing of the engine, and can thus stockpile, rather than making them to a set of unspaced carbs!
Dave
Stop the planet, I want to get off
|
PLEASE NOTE: This user is a trader who has not signed up for the LocostBuilders registration scheme. If this post is advertising a commercial product or service, please report it by clicking here.
|
Fatboy Dave
|
| posted on 21/8/07 at 10:14 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by DarrenW
Sorry Dave, maybe i misheard. I thought you said the Boggs et al manifolds were terrible and you wouldnt do them like that - ie you were doing them
better.
Part right - I am saying that they're terrible the way they're doing it. I at no point said mine were better. It's blatent they are
though 
quote:
To be honest i too would expect a short straight runner manifold to flow better but i would also expect such a simpler manifold to be a
fraction of the price. Maybe the carbs are easier to respace but for me a consideration was that i didnt have to do it.
So you want them for nothing? I only make mine out of alloy, not steel of any sort (and I refuse to tbh). £125 for a manifold from me versus the
£176.25 from Bogg Bros is noteably cheaper in my book.
Are you saying that because I don't make kooky runners for my manifolds I'm not allowed to make any money on them?
quote:
I would still be interested to know what the real differences are in terms of power delivery, torque and drivability to understand if its just
marginal or fundamentally significant.
I'd expect it to be fundamental, especially evident up top. The offer still stands, anyone who can flow test them, I have the manifolds to
offer.
quote:
Reason for choosing the route i have taken is to get a cost effective alternative to webers and an improvement over the 38DGAS. Do you think i
will achieve this goal? Id rather know now if ive done something wrong before ive done the switch.
I seriously doubt you won't see a gain over a DGAS. I just think that for the money you paid, and the carbs you used, you could have seen
even better gains...
Dave
Stop the planet, I want to get off
|
PLEASE NOTE: This user is a trader who has not signed up for the LocostBuilders registration scheme. If this post is advertising a commercial product or service, please report it by clicking here.
|
DarrenW
|
| posted on 21/8/07 at 10:17 PM |
|
|
Stockpiling / making production more efficient is a very valid comment.
When i open the throttles on all of the runners i can see the head inlets.
As i said before i can understand why straight runners are a benefit but would like to know more about how (ie results). For me i wasnt happy that i
could make a good job of spacing mine so im happy with what ive chosen to do. The 38DGAS inlet im using now is far worse in terms of unequal length so
i cant be doing such a bad thing can i? u probs have a point that for the money i could get more gains but for now ill have to settle with the
decision i made.
If you have the manifolds then i have the car for the tests. Ive nothing to gain either way and no affiliation with Boggs or anyone else - just keen
to quantify what horrible means. Its probs an acedemic debate with no definitive rights and wrongs anyway. If we did do some testing it may not prove
either way conclusively. One may give more power but the other more torque at the more often used rev range for instance. It then becomes a case for
horses for courses.
[Edited on 21/8/07 by DarrenW]
|
|
|
DarrenW
|
| posted on 21/8/07 at 10:39 PM |
|
|
Im off to bed now. If i hadnt already fitted the air filter base and you could have respaced my carbs for the extra £50 i may have placed an order.
Best of luck Dave with your manifolds etc. Sounds like you have some good ideas.
I suppose if i want proper power in the future i may change the power plant anyway and need one of your injection manifolds. After all there are
limits with a boat anchor isnt there 
Dont shout too loud about the unspaced manifolds - i may need to sell mine in the future!!
|
|
|
Fatboy Dave
|
| posted on 21/8/07 at 10:49 PM |
|
|
quote:
When i open the throttles on all of the runners i can see the head inlets.
I can't on my Zetec manifold. They're angled upwards and outwards. Obviously intended for carbs at some point in the past.
quote:
As i said before i can understand why straight runners are a benefit but would like to know more about how (ie results). For me i wasnt happy
that i could make a good job of spacing mine so im happy with what ive chosen to do.
Quite simply, air likes travelling in a straight line - it doesn't like going round corners. Bends in a runner and sharp changes in direction
hurt laminar air flow, and ultimately, power. Not to mention that all four runners are going to flow a different amount of air!
quote:
The 38DGAS inlet im using now is far worse in terms of unequal length so i cant be doing such a bad thing can i?
Indeed, any change over standard that produces extra power is no bad thing
quote:
u probs have a point that for the money i could get more gains but for now ill have to settle with the decision i made.
And for that, I respect you; I'm not out to bash anyones products (well, maybe I am? I'm not out for a forum mud slinging contest so I
will leave out the email I got from Steve Bogg).
What I'm getting at is something that is both expensive and ultimately flawed in that it doesn't perform as well as something made with
less effort and less cost is NOT a work of art, no matter how many bolt on shinies you add, or how much you polish, or how many you sell...
quote:
If you have the manifolds then i have the car for the tests. Ive nothing to gain either way and no affiliation with Boggs or anyone else - just
keen to quantify what horrible means.
u2u me, I'm sure we can come up with something between us. I'd like someone to offer a flow bench test TBH...
quote:
Its probs an acedemic debate with no definitive rights and wrongs anyway. If we did do some testing it may not prove either way conclusively.
One may give more power but the other more torque at the more often used rev range for instance. It then becomes a case for horses for
courses.
True; this can only be a good thing. I have nothing to prove nor disprove, and I let my work sell on merrit, I don't advertise other than offer
my product as an alternative when people ask (and my forum status still hasn't been upgraded...)
Dave
Stop the planet, I want to get off
|
PLEASE NOTE: This user is a trader who has not signed up for the LocostBuilders registration scheme. If this post is advertising a commercial product or service, please report it by clicking here.
|
Fatboy Dave
|
| posted on 21/8/07 at 10:52 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by DarrenW
Im off to bed now. If i hadnt already fitted the air filter base and you could have respaced my carbs for the extra £50 i may have placed an
order.
ISTR you did u2u me. Just about every 4 pot manifold I do is £125, and I have pretty much everything the Locoster could want choicewise. As you said,
your hands were tied in the matter.
quote:
Best of luck Dave with your manifolds etc. Sounds like you have some good ideas.
Thanks, indeed I do 
quote:
I suppose if i want proper power in the future i may change the power plant anyway and need one of your injection manifolds. After all there
are limits with a boat anchor isnt there
One Zetec for sir!
Dont shout too loud about the unspaced manifolds - i may need to sell mine in the future!!
Promise!
Dave
Stop the planet, I want to get off
|
PLEASE NOTE: This user is a trader who has not signed up for the LocostBuilders registration scheme. If this post is advertising a commercial product or service, please report it by clicking here.
|
DarrenW
|
| posted on 23/8/07 at 10:54 AM |
|
|
Ive been thinking about this further.
I have 38DGAS weber on now – both barrels feed into one chamber, then turn 90deg in probs only 25mm depth and then onto 4 unequal length runners and
the car runs well. It is fair comment that Ford would have developed the downdraughts to a budget and with vicars and grannys in mind as well as would
be bodie and doyles – but they did offer the 38DGAS as a performance upgrade on the RS2000 didn’t they? Twin webers may have straighter manifold
runners but am I right in thinking the chokes are not in line and hence reduce the effective diameter compared to equivalent bike carbs????? Surely 4
separate carbs feeding their own far straighter easier flow runners is a big improvement. The debate therefore as to wether fully straight runners /
respaced bike carbs vs bent runners is probs a one of fine tuning rather than a fundamental design issue in the absence of controlled test data is it
not?
As i have a predominantly road car and making improvements as a hobby then im still happy with what i have now.
At the end of the day I contracted Boggs to make me a manifold to suit the carbs i supplied and they have done a good job of that. If id have respaced
them first then i would have got a manifold similar to what Dave has proposed.
Dave - you are right, i did U2U you but no price was offered and since i didnt want to respace the carbs anyway i didnt pursue it any further. My
choice and if it doesnt work then i am responsible for that.
[Edited on 23/8/07 by DarrenW]
|
|
|
jacko
|
| posted on 23/8/07 at 06:13 PM |
|
|
Hi Dave one thing i would like to ask is when you space the carbs on your manifold [ this is on a ford pinto ] does the front carb miss the dizzy ok
that is why i made my manifold like bogg brothers
Thankyou
Graham
|
|
|
